Basic christian doctrines

[John 8:32]

At the time of Nicaea there was nothing known as a Catholic (capital C) creed.

The Nicene Creed is about doctrine. The 'doctrine' has to come from the canon (authority) of scripture which we know as the Bible. So, No - the creed cannot be 'above' the Biblical texts.

It was used to change Sabbath to Sunday and the 14th of Nisan (quarto-decimani controversy) to Easter.

 

[wayseer]

It was used to change Sabbath to Sunday and the 14th of Nisan (quarto-decimani controversy) to Easter.

Constantine did not need a Council to do that - the agenda was a bit deeper.

 

[John 8:32]

The agenda was to de-Judaize the church.

 

[Butch5]

But that is not only what John says, is it? That is my point. It is misleading to take a single verse and say that "eternal life comes from believing that Jesus is the Christ," and that is all there is to it. There is much more that John says and much more the other NT writers say.

I first point you to what I already posted:

1Jn 4:2 By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God,
1Jn 4:3 and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you heard was coming and now is in the world already. (ESV)

2Jn 1:7 For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not confess the coming of Jesus Christ in the flesh. Such a one is the deceiver and the antichrist. (ESV)

So clearly there is something that is already to be believed about who Jesus is for one to be a true follower of Christ. Looking at what John says in his gospel:

Joh 1:12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, (ESV)

Joh 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up,
Joh 3:15 that whoever believes in him may have eternal life.
....
Joh 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

From Vincent's Word Studies:

"Name (ὄνομα)

See on Mat_28:19. Expressing the sum of the qualities which mark the nature or character of a person. To believe in the name of Jesus Christ the Son of God, is to accept as true the revelation contained in that title. Compare Joh_20:31."

It is significant that in John 3 the context is the death and resurrection of Jesus. This is in agreement with Paul in Rom 10:9,10. As I've stated many times in these forums, who Jesus is is absolutely central to salvation. We simply cannot believe whatever we want about him and think we are saved. Is he the Christ and the Son of God? Yes, but there is more to it than just that. Not to mention believing in his death and physical resurrection.

Hi Free,

Originally Posted by

Butch5
If you believe the main one the rest should fall into place. According to the apostle eternal life comes from believing that Jesus is the Christ.

I said if you believe the main thin the rest should fall into place. The main thing is that Jesus is the Christ. If a person understands what it means to be the Christ they will know of the prophies that pertain to "The Christ." For example it is prophsied in Psalm 2 that the Christ will inherit the nations and the world as His possession. It is prophesied in Isaiah that the Christ would suffer for the sins of men. It is prophesied that the Christ would die and resurrect. What does it mean to believe in His name? His name is Joshua, it means savior or deliverer. So one believing in His name means they believe He is the savior or deliverer. The Christ is the savior, thus believing in His name is believing that He is the promised savior, the Christ, of the Old Testament Scriptures.

 

[Webb]

The word "Christ" is a title. It means "anoint", "anointed." In the OT 3 classes of persons were anointed, the prophets, the priests and kings. Jesus is the only one (as Christ) anointed all three, prophet, priest and king. When we confess Him to be the Christ we are in effect saying we make Him our teacher (prophet), our priest (He is now high priest and king( He now reigns as king over the kingdom of heaven).

 

[Butch5]

The word "Christ" is a title. It means "anoint", "anointed." In the OT 3 classes of persons were anointed, the prophets, the priests and kings. Jesus is the only one (as Christ) anointed all three, prophet, priest and king. When we confess Him to be the Christ we are in effect saying we make Him our teacher (prophet), our priest (He is now high priest and king( He now reigns as king over the kingdom of heaven).

 

[The Unbeliever]

I always like Ephesians 4:4-6 as a sort of primitive Christian statement of belief.

There is one body and one Spirit—just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call—  one ord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

 

[Webb]

Its my understanding that Eph.4:1-6 is the basis of what must be believed.

 

[Agape]

I always like Ephesians 4:4-6 as a sort of primitive Christian statement of belief.

Its my understanding that Eph.4:1-6 is the basis of what must be believed.

:yes In Ephesians 4:4-6, Paul lists the seven identifying features of true unity.

1. One body
2. One Spirit
3. One hope
4. One Lord
5. One faith
6. One baptism
7. One God and Father

 

[farouk]

1 Timothy 1:3 As I urged you when I went into Macedonia, stay there in Ephesus so that you may command certain people not to teach false doctrines any longer 4 or to devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies. Such things promote controversial speculations rather than advancing God’s work—which is by faith.

8 We know that the law is good if one uses it properly. 9 We also know that the law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, 10 for the sexually immoral, for those practicing homosexuality, for slave traders and liars and perjurers—and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine

Reference Romans 7:7

11 that conforms to the gospel concerning the glory of the blessed God, which he entrusted to me.

Notice that all doctrines must conform to the Gospel of Christ.

Conform:
1. to act in accordance or harmony; comply (usually followed by to ): to conform to rules.
2. to act in accord with the prevailing standards, attitudes, practices, etc., of society or a group: One has to conform in order to succeed in this company.
3. to be or become similar in form, nature, or character.
4. to be in harmony or accord.

Gospel:
1 Corinthians 15:Now, brothers and sisters, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. 2 By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.

3 For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance[a]: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that he appeared to Cephas, and then to the Twelve. 6 After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers and sisters at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. 7 Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, 8 and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born.

Good answer.

Christians who are truly born again will sometimes differ on particulars, but there certainly is such a thing as a body of doctrine known as 'the faith once delivered to the saints' (Jude).

 

[Eventide]

Faith.. Hope.. Love...

And every born again Christian will eventually see that the gospel of God concerning His Son.. is under constant attack.. and imo just about everything the Christian hopes for has been spiritualized away as if the story ended in the first century.. and now everything else is allegory.. or again, spiritualized..

Little things... Like the

RESURRECTION of the DEAD..

..which is absolutely and undeniably connected with the COMING of the Lord Jesus Christ, in that DAY, the Day of the LORD, the Day of Jesus Christ..

IMO the DELIVERANCE of the nation of ISRAEL will also be a central focus of that Day.. WHEN He comes in His glory with His Holy Angels.. and ten thousands of His saints..

All of these things are being spiritualized away as if there's no future 'reality' to it ?

The Lord Jesus Christ IS absolutely coming.. it would be scriptural and spiritual suicide to claim otherwise.. or that He has ALREADY returned.. which is impossible.. because the resurrection of the dead has NOT happened..

That's OUR HOPE.. and hope which is seen (or realized) is no hope at all..

 

[farouk]

:yes In Ephesians 4:4-6, Paul lists the seven identifying features of true unity.

1. One body
2. One Spirit
3. One hope
4. One Lord
5. One faith
6. One baptism
7. One God and Father

People really need to get to grips with Ephesians, don't they?

Blessings.

 

[Free]

I said if you believe the main thin the rest should fall into place. The main thing is that Jesus is the Christ. If a person understands what it means to be the Christ they will know of the prophies that pertain to "The Christ." For example it is prophsied in Psalm 2 that the Christ will inherit the nations and the world as His possession. It is prophesied in Isaiah that the Christ would suffer for the sins of men. It is prophesied that the Christ would die and resurrect. What does it mean to believe in His name? His name is Joshua, it means savior or deliverer. So one believing in His name means they believe He is the savior or deliverer. The Christ is the savior, thus believing in His name is believing that He is the promised savior, the Christ, of the Old Testament Scriptures.

So are JW's and Mormons Christians? Why or why not?

 

[Webb]

No, they have substituted for the scriptures their own scriptures.

 

[Butch5]

So are JW's and Mormons Christians? Why or why not?

If they believe that Jesus is the Christ of the Old Testament, yes. It's my understanding that JW's don't believe that Jesus is deity. This would be to deny that Jesus is the Son of God, in this case the answer would be no. I'm not really that familiar with Mormons so I can't really address that issue.

 

[Free]

If they believe that Jesus is the Christ of the Old Testament, yes. It's my understanding that JW's don't believe that Jesus is deity. This would be to deny that Jesus is the Son of God, in this case the answer would be no. I'm not really that familiar with Mormons so I can't really address that issue.

This is scary to me. Who Jesus is is central to salvation. The JW's believe Jesus is a created being, but divine--"and the Word was a god". Mormons also believe Jesus was a God.

The point is, both believe precisely what you stated, yet they are not Christian. This shows that your argument is incomplete, as I pointed out previously. You leave out too much. We must avoid the two main errors with regards to doctrine, in this case as regarding Christology--saying too much or saying too little.

This is not to turn this into a discussion on the nature of Christ, as there are other threads for that, but just to make a point that there must be central, basic doctrine one believes if they are a Christian.

 

[Butch5]

This is scary to me. Who Jesus is is central to salvation. The JW's believe Jesus is a created being, but divine--"and the Word was a god". Mormons also believe Jesus was a God.

The point is, both believe precisely what you stated, yet they are not Christian. This shows that your argument is incomplete, as I pointed out previously. You leave out too much. We must avoid the two main errors with regards to doctrine, in this case as regarding Christology--saying too much or saying too little.

Isn't this begging the question? You've determined what the criteria are and determined that JW's and Mormons are not Christians based on your determination. You've claimed I'm wrong and they are not Christians based on what you deem necessary to be a Christian.

This is not to turn this into a discussion on the nature of Christ, as there are other threads for that, but just to make a point that there must be central, basic doctrine one believes if they are a Christian.

Free,

Who brought the Gospel to save mankind? Wasn't it Jesus? Nowhere in Scripture did He go around preaching believe that I'm going to die for you sin and you'll be saved. Nowhere do we find Him preaching, believe that I am going to resurrect and you'll be saved. Instead what we find Him preaching and teaching is the Kingdom of God. What did Jesus say would be the foundation of His church, believe I'm going to die for your sins? No, that's not what He said. He said the foundation of the church would be the confession Peter made when asked who do you say that I am?

16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.(Mat 16:16-18 KJV)

If Jesus preached the gospel, yet He didn't preach, believe I'm going to die for your sins, how were people saved? I would seem, apparently, that they didn't believe He was going to die for their sins since they didn't know about it, yet they were saved. What they believed was that He was the Christ, the promised Messiah of the OT Scriptures.

 

[Free]

Isn't this begging the question? You've determined what the criteria are and determined that JW's and Mormons are not Christians based on your determination. You've claimed I'm wrong and they are not Christians based on what you deem necessary to be a Christian.

All I have said so far is based on historical, orthodox Christianity. I will continue to say that who Jesus is is central to salvation. We simply cannot make Jesus out to be whomever we want and be saved.

Free,

Who brought the Gospel to save mankind? Wasn't it Jesus? Nowhere in Scripture did He go around preaching believe that I'm going to die for you sin and you'll be saved. Nowhere do we find Him preaching, believe that I am going to resurrect and you'll be saved. Instead what we find Him preaching and teaching is the Kingdom of God. What did Jesus say would be the foundation of His church, believe I'm going to die for your sins? No, that's not what He said. He said the foundation of the church would be the confession Peter made when asked who do you say that I am?

16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.(Mat 16:16-18 KJV)

If Jesus preached the gospel, yet He didn't preach, believe I'm going to die for your sins, how were people saved? I would seem, apparently, that they didn't believe He was going to die for their sins since they didn't know about it, yet they were saved. What they believed was that He was the Christ, the promised Messiah of the OT Scriptures.

Of course they didn't believe he was going to die for their sins. They expected a military campaign to set them free from the tyranny of Roman rule. Can you prove that any were saved solely based on believing Jesus was the Messiah? It sure isn't in the passage above. It seems your answers are still far too narrow. You are focusing on one passage at a time as though it says all there is to say on a matter. This is not good practice.

Rom 10:9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. (ESV)

Do you agree or disagree with Paul here?

I would argue that the very term "Son of God" was understood by the Jews to mean that he was, in fact, God in nature--"they shall call his name 'Immanuel' (which means, God with us)" (Matt 1:23, ESV). He was the very embodiment of Israel's God.

We also shouldn't forget other things Jesus said:

Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
.....
Joh 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up,
Joh 3:15 that whoever believes in him may have eternal life.
Joh 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
Joh 3:17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Joh 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. (ESV)

Seems that Jesus here is implicitly, if not explicitly, stating that salvation will be through his death and resurrection.

 

[Agape]

What they believed was that He was the Christ, the promised Messiah of the OT Scriptures.

You mean what Paul is referring to in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4?

15 Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.
3 For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,
4 and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures,

 

[farouk]

It's good to remember the unity of the Scriptures. The New Testament is full of the Old. The Old keeps pointing forward to the New. The Lord Jesus Himself quoted the Old Testament many, many times; indeed 'all the promises of God, in Him, are yea, and in Him, Amen, to the glory of God by us' (2 Corinthians 1.20).