Believing in Wrong Doctrine: Will I lose my salvation?

[williamt]

williamt,

I am Reformed, a Reformed Arminian. How does that sit with you? I am not Pelagian or semi-Pelagian in my theology.



With respect. to accuse me that my 'use of theological terminology' on a theology board is wanting' is an inadequate reply theologically. You gave not one example of how my theology is 'wanting'.

Oz

ROFL Reformed Arminian and you suggest that there needs be an example of your inadequate theology.

 

[OzSpen]

ROFL Reformed Arminian and you suggest that there needs be an example of your inadequate theology.

williamt,

You committed the Appeal to Ridicule logical fallacy in your reply to me. This is fallacious reasoning.

If you don't know what Reformed Arminianism is, go read Jacob Arminius. He was a Dutch Reformed minister in Holland to his dying day. He taught at the Reformed University of Leiden.

I'm not a nincompoop in my theological knowledge.

When you roll on the floor laughing, claiming my theology is 'wanting', when I provide a link to an interview with a Reformed Arminian on a Calvinistic Reformed site (The Gospel Coalition), who is the one with an inadequate understanding of theology?

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

is there a scripture that says if we live a life of sin we will lose our salvation?

TF,

Have you considered 1 John 3?

1 John 3:9 (KJV) states: ‘Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God’. Is that your experience as a born again believer? Have you become sinlessly perfect so you 'do not commit sin'.

The translators of the NIV have tried to convey the meaning of the Greek tenses in this verse, 1 John 3:9 (NIV): ‘No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God’.

1 John 3:6-8 (NIV) gives some context:

6 No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.​

​

7 Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. The one who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. 8 The one who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work.​

Therefore, how is it possible for a born again believer to keep on sinning and still enter the kingdom of God? John writes that such a person has neither seen nor known Christ. That person who continues in sin is 'of the devil' and he is one who leads believers astray.

For further explanations of Christians who sin, see my brief article, Christians do not sin!

Oz

 

[chessman]

Here ya go

And as you can see, that was not me saying the question itself was confusing but rather me saying that your assumption pertaining to salvation within the question is confusing. What is confusing is why you think your question about salvation pertains to the Scripture we were discussing, since the actual Scripture says nothing about salvation, one way or the other. Additionally the rest of Paul’s sentence (which you don’t post) tells you and me and every other reader exactly what Paul means by “depart from the faith” here.

Do you think someone who forbids marriage is still saved?

Here is the scripture.

Actually you continue to post only a snip from a part of Paul’s Scripture whereas the entire sentence goes on to say exactly what he means by “departing the faith” here. And it’s not about de-salvation.

Here is my question that comes directly from the scripture.

Again (last time), your question is about your assumption not about the actual Scripture. The actual Scripture tells you exactly what Paul meant here by “departing from the faith”.

 

[chessman]

The doctrine of Christ must be believed, obeyed and practiced, otherwise the one who does not, no longer has God.

How about posting and underlining “no longer has God” from 2 John 9? Else it seems you are once again assuming someone who does not remain in God, once had God abiding in him/her in the first place. Like the question; Have you stopped beating your wife yet? assumes you first started beating your wife. (And that you have a wife.)

And what’s worse is how clear it is that your assumption is an incorrect assumption which contradicts John’s previous testimony:

The one believing in the Son of God has the testimony in himself. The one not believing God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony which God has testified about His Son.​

1 John 5:10 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=1 John 5:10&version=DLNT

Fill in the blank with your answer:

The one not believing God _____ believed in the testimony?

A. has not
B. has once

 

[Truthfrees]

TF,

Have you considered 1 John 3?

1 John 3:9 (KJV) states: ‘Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God’. Is that your experience as a born again believer? Have you become sinlessly perfect so you 'do not commit sin'.

The translators of the NIV have tried to convey the meaning of the Greek tenses in this verse, 1 John 3:9 (NIV): ‘No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God’.

1 John 3:6-8 (NIV) gives some context:

6 No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.​

​

7 Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. The one who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. 8 The one who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work.​

Therefore, how is it possible for a born again believer to keep on sinning and still enter the kingdom of God? John writes that such a person has neither seen nor known Christ. That person who continues in sin is 'of the devil' and he is one who leads believers astray.

For further explanations of Christians who sin, see my brief article, Christians do not sin!

Oz

amen - well said - i agree with this -

i think this is what ezra is saying also - a born again person is a new creation - and there should be a sensitive conscience to sin - so sin should bother a born again believer so badly that he wants to find a way to stop sinning -

a person who continues to freely and gleefully live a sinful lifestyle would imo be a sign that Christ has not yet been formed in him - and as paul said i travail again that Christ be formed in you

 

[GodsGrace]

i agree that if we think it is ok to sin we might sin more - but sin creates such terrible trouble for the sinner and his family that i doubt he could continue for long - imo his sin will create so much pain and chaos in his life that he will WANT to stop sinning

is there a scripture that says if we live a life of sin we will lose our salvation?

i know there is a scripture that says if the Holy Seed lives in us we will NOT continue to sin - that sounds like a given fact - IF the Holy Spirit lives in us (which only happens at salvation) we will NOT continue to sin - sounds like sin will be dealt with by the Holy Spirit - and that is a promise

The N.T. gives a lot of warnings as to how we're to behave.
It tells us that we must obey God. John 8:51
It tells us to continue in good deeds. Romans 2:7
Jesus said we will be judged by our deeds. John 5:29
So if we live a life of sin, how could we be saved?
According to John 8:51, if we do NOT keep Jesus' word, we WILL see death.

 

[Truthfrees]

The N.T. gives a lot of warnings as to how we're to behave.
It tells us that we must obey God. John 8:51
It tells us to continue in good deeds. Romans 2:7
Jesus said we will be judged by our deeds. John 5:29
So if we live a life of sin, how could we be saved?
According to John 8:51, if we do NOT keep Jesus' word, we WILL see death.

amen - i agree with this - someone who enjoys a lifestyle of sin imo is not saved - if God lives in us because we are the temple of the Holy Spirit how can we enjoy a lifestyle of sin - sin should bother us so greatly that we want to stop sinning -

 

[GodsGrace]

amen - i agree with this - someone who enjoys a lifestyle of sin imo is not saved - if God lives in us because we are the temple of the Holy Spirit how can we enjoy a lifestyle of sin - sin should bother us so greatly that we want to stop sinning -

I'm sorry to say that I agree with you because I do read from some that this is possible; although most will say that they cannot lose their salvation however, they understand that sinning is not biblically acceptable.

 

[Truthfrees]

I'm sorry to say that I agree with you because I do read from some that this is possible; although most will say that they cannot lose their salvation however, they understand that sinning is not biblically acceptable.

amen - imo there are 2 possibilities -
1. you can lose your salvation through a gleeful lifestyle of sin or
2. a gleeful lifestyle of sin proves you never were saved - Christ never yet was formed in you

imo #2 makes the most sense

i say gleeful because people who are tormented and trying to get free of a lifestyle of sin imo prove they have a conscience and for some reason need healing from sin as James 5:16 says - i do not include them in the above statement

 

[chessman]

John 12:32 (NIV), 'And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.’

Note: Jesus said, 'I ... will draw all people to myself'. He draws ALL but ALL don't come. Many reject.

Yes Jesus draws Greek people, Jewish people and people from every tongue and nation to Himself.

Now some of the ones going up in order that they might worship at the Feast were Greeks. So these ones came to Philip, the one from Bethsaida of Galilee, and were asking him, saying, “Sir, we wish to see Jesus”. Philip comes and tells Andrew. Andrew and Philip come, and they tell Jesus. And Jesus responds to them, saying, “The hour has come for the Son of Man to be glorified. Father, glorify Your name!” Then a voice came from heaven: “I both glorified it, and will again glorify it ”. Then the crowd, the one standing there and having heard, was saying that thunder had taken place. Others were saying, “ An angel has spoken to Him”. Jesus responded and said, “This voice has taken place not for My sake, but for your sakes. Now is the judgment of this world! Now the ruler of this world will be cast out! And if I am lifted-up from the earth, I will draw all people to Myself ”.​

John 12:20-23,28-32 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=John 12:20-23,28-32&version=DLNT

 

[GodsGrace]

amen - imo there are 2 possibilities -
1. you can lose your salvation through a gleeful lifestyle of sin or
2. a gleeful lifestyle of sin proves you never were saved - Christ never yet was formed in you

imo #2 makes the most sense

i say gleeful because people who are tormented and trying to get free of a lifestyle of sin imo prove they have a conscience and for some reason need healing from sin as James 5:16 says - i do not include them in the above statement

I agree.

When my company leaves...I'll post more.

 

[WIP]

Personally, I couldn't care what you believe. However, to suggest that theology doesn't matter, what I infer from your responses is to suggest that Orthodoxy doesn't matter.

Really? Why not? It would seem that all Christians everywhere would take a keen interest in what others believe. Isn't that what it means to share the love of Christ to the world?

 

[WIP]

As I said, this is a futile effort. Catholicism appeals to the Catholic church as the sole interpreter. While Protestants appeal to Sola Scriptura.

If what you say is 100% true and since there is only one Scripture why then are there 35,000+ different protestant denominations and the number continues to grow?

 

[JLB]

And as you can see, that was not me saying the question itself was confusing but rather me saying that your assumption pertaining to salvation within the question is confusing.

I can see you are confused about my question, which pertains to the faith in Christ, and the salvation that is gained through faith in Christ.


So I won’t ask you anymore.



JLB

 

[JLB]

Additionally the rest of Paul’s sentence (which you don’t post) tells you and me and every other reader exactly what Paul means by “depart from the faith” here.

Do you think someone who forbids marriage is still saved?

In 1 Timothy 4:1, what does “the faith” mean to you?


Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 1 Timothy 4:1


Does it mean to you:

Faith in marriage?
Faith in food?
Faith in things God created?
Faith in Christ?
Something else?



JLB

 

[JLB]

How about posting and underlining “no longer has God” from 2 John 9?

Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 2 John 9


What does the phrase: “transgresses the doctrine of Christ”
mean to you?


Can a person transgress a doctrine they have never believed and obeyed?



JLB

 

[JLB]

How about posting and underlining “no longer has God” from 2 John 9? Else it seems you are once again assuming someone who does not remain in God, once had God abiding in him/her in the first place. Like the question; Have you stopped beating your wife yet? assumes you first started beating your wife. (And that you have a wife.)

And what’s worse is how clear it is that your assumption is an incorrect assumption which contradicts John’s previous testimony:

The one believing in the Son of God has the testimony in himself. The one not believing God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony which God has testified about His Son.​

1 John 5:10 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=1 John 5:10&version=DLNT

Fill in the blank with your answer:

The one not believing God _____ believed in the testimony?

A. has not
B. has once

He who believes in the Son of God has the witness in himself; he who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed the testimony that God has given of His Son.
1 John 5:10


Are you trying to say that 2 John 9, is the context of 1 John 5:10?


Makes no sense!



JLB

 

[JLB]

And as you can see, that was not me saying the question itself was confusing but rather me saying that your assumption pertaining to salvation within the question is confusing. What is confusing is why you think your question about salvation pertains to the Scripture we were discussing, since the actual Scripture says nothing about salvation, one way or the other. Additionally the rest of Paul’s sentence (which you don’t post) tells you and me and every other reader exactly what Paul means by “depart from the faith” here.

Do you think someone who forbids marriage is still saved?



Actually you continue to post only a snip from a part of Paul’s Scripture whereas the entire sentence goes on to say exactly what he means by “departing the faith” here. And it’s not about de-salvation.

Again (last time), your question is about your assumption not about the actual Scripture. The actual Scripture tells you exactly what Paul meant here by “departing from the faith”.

How about posting and underlining “no longer has God” from 2 John 9? Else it seems you are once again assuming someone who does not remain in God, once had God abiding in him/her in the first place. Like the question; Have you stopped beating your wife yet? assumes you first started beating your wife. (And that you have a wife.)

And what’s worse is how clear it is that your assumption is an incorrect assumption which contradicts John’s previous testimony:

The one believing in the Son of God has the testimony in himself. The one not believing God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony which God has testified about His Son.​

1 John 5:10 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=1 John 5:10&version=DLNT

Fill in the blank with your answer:

The one not believing God _____ believed in the testimony?

A. has not
B. has once

Just so you know where I stand on the two scriptures that I gave concerning the OP, which are:


Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 2 John 9


I believe if a believer does not remain in the doctrine of Christ, then they do not have God any longer.



Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 1 Timothy 4:1


I believe if a person departs from the faith in Christ, then they are no longer saved by faith.



JLB

 

[chessman]

In 1 Timothy 4:1, what does “the faith” mean to you?

Exactly what Paul told Timothy it meant within the passage (you know, in the portion you continue to cut out):
That every creature of God is good and nothing being received with thanksgiving is to be rejected.

In theses later days, there are people who have departed from this faith. An example of departure from this faith is a priest who forbids marriage because he’s been deceived by deceitful spirits.