Beware of circular reasoning!

[Carry_Your_Name]

"I know because the Bible tells me so." I need nothing but Holy Scripture illumed by the Holy Spirit, it makes me complete for every good work:

No, Bible did not tell youthe tidbits about 40 authors, 1500 year time span, 3 continents, etc. You learnt that from extrabiblical sources which validated the Bible. Also, many OT books were written and compiled by multiple rabbis, including the Torah, there’s no way to know exactly how many authors and who they were, we can only have an estimate.

Also, as you’re quoting 2 Tim. 3:16, you’re precisely guilty of the circular reasoning I pointed in the OP.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Careful. You're using the fallacious Strawman line of argumentation, here. I did not say anyone was being "foolish" (this is your addition to my remarks) and when I spoke of "ignorance" I meant it, not in a colloquially-pejorative sense, but in the sense of "lacking knowledge." If a person obviously lacks knowledge, if they are clearly ignorant about a certain subject to which they are proposing to speak, it is not ad hominem to point this out.

We were all biblical ignorant, actually we still are, the word of God is a well of wisdom too deep to fathom, there’s always more to learn and discover. Just because you have some knowledge doesn’t give you the right to call anybody ignorant. In the example I gave, the kid asked a legitimate question, the Bible has numerous accounts like the resurrection records that are seemingly contradicting one another, just take Gen. 1 and Gen. 2 for example, they look like two different creations accounts, you’ll get that impression if you don’t know better and read them chronologically. That doesn’t make you ignorant, and asking questions is not attacking or challenging the Bible. Faith is NOT blind.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Yes, the Spirit worked through the words of the disciples, not through spastic hysteria, or instant healings, or whatever. It was the Gospel, spoken to the lost, invested with supernatural power by the Holy Spirit that was all that was required to persuade 3000 people to faith in Jesus Christ.

But it is true that every saved person has, in being saved, become a miracle. There is so much that is stacked against the lost sinner coming to faith in Christ that, if not for the supernatural power of God, no one could ever be saved.

You don't know that. "Split tongues on fire" (2:3) sounds pretty much like a supernatural sensation, it was not just mere words.

The "Great Apostasy" of the modern church began many decades ago, as far back, I think, as the 1920s and 30s. Tent revivals, youth evangelism movements, hyper-charismaticism, seeker-sensitive churches, the industrialization/commercialization of Church ministries - these (and other) things have contributed to a long, slow, but steady juvenilization of the Church in the West so that, today, it is profoundly weak, immature, corrupt and ignorant.

Fulfillment of Is. 3:4-5. Forfeiture of authority and loss of trust in institutions.

“I will give children to be their princes,
And babes shall rule over them.
The people will be oppressed,
Every one by another and every one by his neighbor;
The child will be insolent toward the elder,
And the base toward the honorable.”

It won't be apologetics that moves the Church out of this condition but persecution, the crucible of purification and refinement, and a return to proper fellowship with God and discipling of His children out of that fellowship.

We've already had persecution, censorship, deplatforming and shutdown are just a foretaste, don't ask for it. If you think these days the hostility of the world toward the church is unprecedented, you've seen nothing yet, you have no idea of the horror and suffering in the Great Tribution, which I believe is imminent. Followers of Christ are compared with salt of the earth, an important function of salt is preservation. Preservation is not prevention, salt couldn't prevent or stop the decay, it only delays it.

Quite. Very often, at least in my experience, though, Christians halt at apologetics, at intellectual engagement with divine Truth, and refuse to venture into the life-transforming experience of the Author of that Truth.

Yeah, experience, not just knowledge. You gotta be a doer, not just a hearer. That's why I quoted James 1:22-25.

Knowing about God is no certain route to trusting Him. The demons believe and tremble, right? They have a knowledge of God that most Christians would love to have, but the demons aren't persuaded by that knowledge to submission to, and trust of, their holy Maker.

What God intends is that His children should know Him directly and personally, not in some bizarre, pagan-ish, hyper-charismatic, but in the way the Bible plainly describes. When they do, as they do, their trust in Him deepens profoundly and their lives coalesce increasingly, naturally and powerfully around Him. And as this happens, the Church corporately becomes what God intended it should be: A bright, shining beacon of Light, of God, to the dark, lost world.

What about those who have had zero access to the word of God in their native language and zero opportunity to a missionary? I'm not just talking about muslim and communist countries, you've got large portion of the population in the west who only know God and Christ as curse words. Are they all condemned to the Lake of Fire for eternity? This is why I keep reminding you that God uses all sorts of available resources to preach his gospel.

This misses my point: Any number of witnesses can be false. How does one guard against this reality in arriving at the truth? The very fact that the Bible commands us not to bear false witness indicates that witnesses can be false. But if this is possible, the mere number of witnesses can't, then, be a sure means of coming to the truth of a matter. More is required to secure, or reveal, the truth as the truth.

Testimonies from two or more false witnesses are either identical in details, which indicates circular reporting, or totally contradicting against each other with nothing in common, which indicates disinformation. Therefore it's not only about the number of witnesses, but validity.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

All your protestations are irrelevant, immaterial and incompetent against the truthful testimony of 40 highly moral men who provided many infallible proofs God is everywhere, and declares to everyone what is right:

18 For thus says the LORD, Who created the heavens, Who is God, Who formed the earth and made it, Who has established it, Who did not create it in vain, Who formed it to be inhabited: "I am the LORD, and there is no other.
19 I have not spoken in secret, In a dark place of the earth; I did not say to the seed of Jacob,
`Seek Me in vain'; I, the LORD, speak righteousness, I declare things that are right. (Isa. 45:18-19 NKJ)

Both God's creation which manifests His glory, and Holy Scripture present every sincere seeker of truth with an overwhelming mass of irrefutable evidence God is, and He is the rewarder of all who diligently seek Him:

38 Now the just shall live by faith; But if anyone draws back, My soul has no pleasure in him."
39 But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul.
1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
2 For by it the elders obtained a good testimony.
3 By faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that the things which are seen were not made of things which are visible.
4 By faith Abel offered to God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, through which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts; and through it he being dead still speaks.
5 By faith Enoch was taken away so that he did not see death, "and was not found, because God had taken him"; for before he was taken he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him. (Heb. 10:38-11:6 NKJ)

More up to the date and 100% reliable information on current events DOESN'T EXIST.

In scripture is the big reveal, the truth about all things now and in the future:

The invalid and unsound arguments you raised against the Anvil of God, have been shattered into pieces.


6 Therefore it is also contained in the Scripture, "Behold, I lay in Zion A chief cornerstone, elect, precious, And he who believes on Him will by no means be put to shame."
7 Therefore, to you who believe, He is precious; but to those who are disobedient, "The stone which the builders rejected Has become the chief cornerstone,"
8 and "A stone of stumbling And a rock of offense." They stumble, being disobedient to the word, to which they also were appointed. (1 Pet. 2:6-8 NKJ)

Man, you're getting upset. Please understand that we're on the same side, I'm not attacking you or the bible, I just wanna engage in a conversation in a civil manner. Your mistake is that God is only revealed through the bible in English translation, and God can only be known by reading and studying the bible, that is blasphemy against God's transformational power which I elaborated in post #19, and that contradicts a lot of contents in the gospel accounts, where gentiles who had no knowledge of the OT Scripture or any Jewish tradition professed their faith in Jesus, one centurion so trusted in Jesus and his healing power that even Jesus himself marveled at his faith; on the contrary, the Pharisees, Sedduccees, scribes and lawyers who were OT experts were the biggest villains who rejected Jesus and eventually put him to death, why didn't any Scripture reveal Christ to them? Why were they of all people so blinded? Likewise, the Vulgate bible didn't exist until centuries later, the KJV and Geneva bible didn't exist until the Renassaince, the vast majority of people were illiterate, it was even forbidden for most women to study and read anything, so how did faith in Christ survive and thrive among these people without access to the Scripture? I told you before that the revelation of God's glory reaches far beyond the 66 books of the bible, that is clearly indicated in John 21:25, the last verse.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Man, you're getting upset. Please understand that we're on the same side, I'm not attacking you or the bible, I just wanna engage in a conversation in a civil manner. Your mistake is that God is only revealed through the bible in English translation, and God can only be known by reading and studying the bible, that is blasphemy against God's transformational power which I elaborated in post #19, and that contradicts a lot of contents in the gospel accounts, where gentiles who had no knowledge of the OT Scripture or any Jewish tradition professed their faith in Jesus, one centurion so trusted in Jesus and his healing power that even Jesus himself marveled at his faith; on the contrary, the Pharisees, Sedduccees, scribes and lawyers who were OT experts were the biggest villains who rejected Jesus and eventually put him to death, why didn't any Scripture reveal Christ to them? Why were they of all people so blinded? Likewise, the Vulgate bible didn't exist until centuries later, the KJV and Geneva bible didn't exist until the Renassaince, the vast majority of people were illiterate, it was even forbidden for most women to study and read anything, so how did faith in Christ survive and thrive among these people without access to the Scripture? I told you before that the revelation of God's glory reaches far beyond the 66 books of the bible, that is clearly indicated in John 21:25, the last verse.

No, its difficult to engage invalid and unsound argument endlessly repeated despite proofs its invalid and unsound.

The Centurian wasn't living in closet, everywhere in Jerusalem Jesus was talked about. His confession implies he knew a lot about Christ.

Paul says the Jews were blinded so Gentiles could be grafted in which leads to "All Israel" being saved:

25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.
26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "The Deliverer will come out of Zion, And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
(Rom. 11:25-26 NKJ)

Illiterate people talk, and they listen. That's how they spread the gospel. In churches and synagogues are where expensive copies of the scripture were kept and read during their meetings.

16 So He came to Nazareth, where He had been brought up. And as His custom was, He went into the synagogue on the Sabbath day, and stood up to read.
17 And He was handed the book of the prophet Isaiah. And when He had opened the book, He found the place where it was written:
18 "The Spirit of the LORD is upon Me, Because He has anointed Me To preach the gospel to the poor; He has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted, To proclaim liberty to the captives And recovery of sight to the blind, To set at liberty those who are oppressed;
19 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD."
20 Then He closed the book, and gave it back to the attendant and sat down. And the eyes of all who were in the synagogue were fixed on Him.
21 And He began to say to them, "Today this Scripture is fulfilled in your hearing." (Lk. 4:16-21 NKJ)

Revelation outside of scripture is subject to doubt. Either one misunderstood the revelation learned from nature, or misunderstood a dream or vision, or misheard what a prophet said.

Scripture is objective, you can study it carefully until you are certain what it says. That is why scripture is far superior to all other forms of revelation, because it is always true while outside of scripture all revelation might be delusion and falsehood.

 

[Alfred Persson]

No, Bible did not tell youthe tidbits about 40 authors, 1500 year time span, 3 continents, etc. You learnt that from extrabiblical sources which validated the Bible. Also, many OT books were written and compiled by multiple rabbis, including the Torah, there’s no way to know exactly how many authors and who they were, we can only have an estimate.

Also, as you’re quoting 2 Tim. 3:16, you’re precisely guilty of the circular reasoning I pointed in the OP.

Incorrect. Bible writers tell us who they are directly, or have others in the book identify them. In a few cases we can tell who wrote the book, by the style used. There is very little dispute as to the identify and author of the 66 books. And yes, a tradition apart from scripture is how we know some of the authors. But even if that is incorrect, the book is scripture, so in the final analysis it is the "Word of God", He wrote it.

If the exact number isn't 40, no one really is concerned about that.

To be worried about such things would be like the "worry wart" who at a banquet with terrific food, can't enjoy it because he doesn't know where the beautiful and clean linen cloths came from.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

No, its difficult to engage invalid and unsound argument endlessly repeated despite proofs its invalid and unsound.

You're the one who demonstrated my concern of circular reasoning.

The Centurian wasn't living in closet, everywhere in Jerusalem Jesus was talked about. His confession implies he knew a lot about Christ.

How do you know that? He like the others only knew him as a healer and an exorcist according to the word on the street, there's no evidence to suggest that he knew more than that.

Paul says the Jews were blinded so Gentiles could be grafted in which leads to "All Israel" being saved:

It was mostly the rabbis, the elites whose real belief lies within the Tulmud, not all Jews. Jesus, Paul and all disciples were Jews. The early church was mostly Jews and Jewish converts. During Paul's missionary journeys, his first stop in every city was usually the local synagogue. You yourself acknowledged that.

Illiterate people talk, and they listen. That's how they spread the gospel. In churches and synagogues are where expensive copies of the scripture were kept and read during their meetings.

They probably didn't understand Latin - or Hebrew, though.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Incorrect. Bible writers tell us who they are directly, or have others in the book identify them. In a few cases we can tell who wrote the book, by the style used. There is very little dispute as to the identify and author of the 66 books. And yes, a tradition apart from scripture is how we know some of the authors. But even if that is incorrect, the book is scripture, so in the final analysis it is the "Word of God", He wrote it.

If the exact number isn't 40, no one really is concerned about that.

No they don't. I've already mentioned the authorship of multiple UNKNOWN Jewish historians. For example, it's a common myth that Moses wrote the pentateuch - the first five books. In Genesis, there were at least two authors who wrote the creation from two different perspectives in Gen. 1 and 2; likewise, the whole book of Deuteronomy is a dictation of Moses's last words on his deathbed, at the end his burial was mentioned, how could he write it by himself? Also, the real authorship of Hebrews is unknown and unidentified, it may be Paul or Barnabas, though. There's no way to know how many and who they are, maybe it wasn't even close to 40.

To be worried about such things would be like the "worry wart" who at a banquet with terrific food, can't enjoy it because he doesn't know where the beautiful and clean linen cloths came from.

How do you know God wrote it without 2 Tim. 3:16-17? Besides, did God write KJV? NKJV? NIV? Or any adulterated version? These are legitimate and real concerns, not unsound and unvalid arguments.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Revelation outside of scripture is subject to doubt. Either one misunderstood the revelation learned from nature, or misunderstood a dream or vision, or misheard what a prophet said.

Scripture is objective, you can study it carefully until you are certain what it says. That is why scripture is far superior to all other forms of revelation, because it is always true while outside of scripture all revelation might be delusion and falsehood.

If you truly believe that, then believe that you and a bible are NOT sufficient, you and God are sufficient. You know what the difference is? "Other forms of revelation" through evangelists whom God sent to instruct you, not just a book. Do not suppose yourself smarter than the Ethiopian eunuch.

And these words which I command you today shall be in your heart. You (Israelites) shall teach them diligently to your children, and shall talk of them when you sit in your house, when you walk by the way, when you lie down, and when you rise up. (Deut. 6:6-7)

So Philip ran to him, and heard him reading the prophet Isaiah, and said, “Do you understand what you are reading?” And he said, “How can I, unless someone guides me?” And he asked Philip to come up and sit with him. (Acts. 8:30-31)

My son, hear the instruction of your father, And do not forsake the law of your mother. (Prov. 1:8)

 

[Josef]

Without having a preconceived view, how can one have an argument?

Hey All,
So let's not argue. When we argue we both want to win. This doesn't have to be competitive.

I have my view. You have your view. We discuss the differences, examine the similarities, and enjoy the process. Our beliefs are personal. I can point out where I believe you are wrong. You can do the same with me. There does not have to be an antagonistic bent to our discussion.

Keep walking everybody.
May God bless,
Taz

 

[Alfred Persson]

If you truly believe that, then believe that you and a bible are NOT sufficient, you and God are sufficient. You know what the difference is? "Other forms of revelation" through evangelists whom God sent to instruct you, not just a book. Do not suppose yourself smarter than the Ethiopian eunuch.

And these words which I command you today shall be in your heart. You (Israelites) shall teach them diligently to your children, and shall talk of them when you sit in your house, when you walk by the way, when you lie down, and when you rise up. (Deut. 6:6-7)

So Philip ran to him, and heard him reading the prophet Isaiah, and said, “Do you understand what you are reading?” And he said, “How can I, unless someone guides me?” And he asked Philip to come up and sit with him. (Acts. 8:30-31)

My son, hear the instruction of your father, And do not forsake the law of your mother. (Prov. 1:8)

Sola Scriptura lists the Bible as The authority, other forms of information are fallible. Therefore, nothing I said contradicted sola scriptura.

 

[Alfred Persson]

No they don't. I've already mentioned the authorship of multiple UNKNOWN Jewish historians. For example, it's a common myth that Moses wrote the pentateuch - the first five books. In Genesis, there were at least two authors who wrote the creation from two different perspectives in Gen. 1 and 2; likewise, the whole book of Deuteronomy is a dictation of Moses's last words on his deathbed, at the end his burial was mentioned, how could he write it by himself? Also, the real authorship of Hebrews is unknown and unidentified, it may be Paul or Barnabas, though. There's no way to know how many and who they are, maybe it wasn't even close to 40.

How do you know God wrote it without 2 Tim. 3:16-17? Besides, did God write KJV? NKJV? NIV? Or any adulterated version? These are legitimate and real concerns, not unsound and unvalid arguments.

I reject the hypothesis of many authors, "Q" etc. When I looked into it, it was obvious to me the scholars didn't understand the context, how one "verse" led to another, and so they theorized the two were separate statements put together by an unknown editor. Here is a good example of their confusion and why their theory is wrong:

They theorize these verses are unrelated to each other. That Christ's teaching on adultery inserted into the context. But anyone aware of the scriptural context where spiritual adultery is a known idea, see the Pharisee's adultery with Mammon connection, and how the people get it but the religious rulers do not. Also the prophecy the testimony of the risen Lazarus would be ineffective, in fact the Pharisees plotted to kill Lazarus and Christ:

13 "No servant can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or else he will be loyal to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and mammon."
14 Now the Pharisees, who were lovers of money, also heard all these things, and they derided Him.
15 And He said to them, "You are those who justify yourselves before men, but God knows your hearts. For what is highly esteemed among men is an abomination in the sight of God.
16 "The law and the prophets were until John. Since that time the kingdom of God has been preached, and everyone is pressing into it.
17 "And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one tittle of the law to fail.
18 "Whoever divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery; and whoever marries her who is divorced from her husband commits adultery.
19 "There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day.
20 "But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate,
(Lk. 16:13-20 NKJ)

Our LORD Jesus was clearly correcting the Pharisees, including their belief Abraham would prevent their descent into Hades:

'In the Hereafter Abraham will sit at the entrance of Gehinnom and will not allow any circumcised Israelite to descend into it." (GenR. xlviii. 8."), Abraham Cohen, Everyman's Talmud, (Schocken Books, NY, 1995), pp. 381.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Sola Scriptura lists the Bible as The authority, other forms of information are fallible. Therefore, nothing I said contradicted sola scriptura.

You didn't respond to the relevance issue or the possible adulteration in modern bible versions. Even in KJV or NKJV, there are some missing verses regarding the deity of Jesus such as this one in Heb. 1:6 - "let all angels of God worship him." It was originally in Deut. 32:43, but only found in Septuigent and Dead Sea Scrolls. The more you study, the more such problems will rise.

I reject the hypothesis of many authors, "Q" etc. When I looked into it, it was obvious to me the scholars didn't understand the context, how one "verse" led to another, and so they theorized the two were separate statements put together by an unknown editor. Here is a good example of their confusion and why their theory is wrong:

I'm not talking about "Q" etc. I'm talking about the OT books. As for the gospel accounts, it says according to Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, then even if it originated from many eyewitness accounts, I'll just pretend it's just those four, alright? Just to make it simple. But I can't pretend those OT books were written and edited by single authors, I can't pretend that Moses wrote all Torah books and David wrote all psalms, that contradicts the contents and style in those books.

 

[Alfred Persson]

You didn't respond to the relevance issue or the possible adulteration in modern bible versions. Even in KJV or NKJV, there are some missing verses regarding the deity of Jesus such as this one in Heb. 1:6 - "let all angels of God worship him." It was originally in Deut. 32:43, but only found in Septuigent and Dead Sea Scrolls. The more you study, the more such problems will rise.

I'm not talking about "Q" etc. I'm talking about the OT books. As for the gospel accounts, it says according to Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, then even if it originated from many eyewitness accounts, I'll just pretend it's just those four, alright? Just to make it simple. But I can't pretend those OT books were written and edited by single authors, I can't pretend that Moses wrote all Torah books and David wrote all psalms, that contradicts the contents and style in those books.

Now the just shall live by faith; But if anyone draws back, My soul has no pleasure in him." (Heb. 10:38 NKJ)

I have full confidence and faith in God my Bible is sound, the same Bible Christ and His apostles used. The differences in mss in word order, spelling, synonyms....not materially affecting the conclusion every jot and tittle (=smallest meaning) will be "fulfilled" [which implies its 100% preservation]:

18 "For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.
19 "Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
(Matt. 5:18-19 NKJ)

The Majority (Byzantine text type used by the Greek Orthodox church) has no missing verses, its the same used by all Greek speaking Christians in the Church. The new versions you reference, use inferior mss not used in the KJV.

 

[Alfred Persson]

No they don't. I've already mentioned the authorship of multiple UNKNOWN Jewish historians. For example, it's a common myth that Moses wrote the pentateuch - the first five books. In Genesis, there were at least two authors who wrote the creation from two different perspectives in Gen. 1 and 2; likewise, the whole book of Deuteronomy is a dictation of Moses's last words on his deathbed, at the end his burial was mentioned, how could he write it by himself? Also, the real authorship of Hebrews is unknown and unidentified, it may be Paul or Barnabas, though. There's no way to know how many and who they are, maybe it wasn't even close to 40.

How do you know God wrote it without 2 Tim. 3:16-17? Besides, did God write KJV? NKJV? NIV? Or any adulterated version? These are legitimate and real concerns, not unsound and unvalid arguments.

Another example of scholars getting it wrong is Peter's public confession he agreed with the divine revelation of Christ he was blessed to receive:


15 He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?"
16 Simon Peter answered and said, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."
17 Jesus answered and said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.
18 "And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.
19 "And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."
20 Then He commanded His disciples that they should tell no one that He was Jesus the Christ. (Matt. 16:15-20 NKJ)

Most Protestant exegetes who refer πέτρα to Peter do so under the assumption that the passage is inauthentic, i.e., that it is either a later interpolation by some Christian hand or more precisely a later creation by a Petrine party, or in polemic against or at least in reaction to Paul.-Peter And The Rock (Walter de Gruyter, Berlin, New York, 1990) pp. 1-3.


These scholars didn't realize Christ is expertly employing an asymmetric Janus Parallelism where "out of the mouth of the little rock (kefa) came life giving water from the Petra Rock of Christ, which if anyone drink of it will live: Namely that "Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God". That is why Matthew alone records it all, it requires precise wording to convey in Greek and clearly the other gospel writers left that job up to Matthew, an expert in scripture:

Jesus’ Janus Parallelism on PETROS in Matthew 16:18 | End Time News

In Matthew 16 18 Simon Peter's name in Greek is Petros. According to Oscar Cullmann, Dalman, Billerbeck[1] to name a few, in Jesus' day there was in Aramaic a Jewish proper name[2] meaning "firstborn" that when transliterated into Greek is spelled petros. . According to Markus Bockmuehl its...

endtimenews.net

 

[Tenchi]

We were all biblical ignorant, actually we still are, the word of God is a well of wisdom too deep to fathom, there’s always more to learn and discover.

??? A PH.D-level nuclear physicist does not know all that there is to know about the physics of the universe, but this doesn't mean he's ignorant about physics. Not knowing everything does not mean one knows nothing. In the same way, not being able to fully plumb the fathomless depths of God's word doesn't mean the person who has studied it carefully for fifty years is a biblical ignoramus. Though, they don't know everything about God's Truth, they do know something of it - certainly far, far more than the one who's only studied the Bible for a year, or not at all.

Just because you have some knowledge doesn’t give you the right to call anybody ignorant.

Yes, it does - especially if that person knows nothing of a subject about which I know a great deal.

I had a guy sit down with me a few years ago to begin a course of discipleship who said to me, "I just want to be clear that we have things to learn from each other in this course. We'll be able to teach one another; our study will be a two-way street." I was quite surprised by his words since he was brand-new to the Christian faith and understood almost nothing about it (which is why he was being discipled by me). I replied, "What about the faith do you think can teach me? I've been walking with God for fifty years; you've been a Christian for less than a year." He assured me that, though he couldn't think of anything at the moment, as we went along, he'd be able to show me things I didn't know about the faith.

It was clear to me that this guy's "cup was full" and if he didn't empty it, acknowledge his profound ignorance and adopt the role of learner fully, attempting to disciple him would be futile and I said so. He was shocked by my reply, of course. So, I proceeded to demonstrate how huge a gap there was between my knowledge and understanding of the faith and his. Just a few questions about the most basic features of the faith revealed he knew practically nothing about what it was to be a Christian. I answered my own questions comprehensively from God's word, quoting many verses from memory in doing so and asked him if he could do the same. Embarrassed, he admitted he could not. Why, then, did he think he had things about the faith he could teach me? It was sheer ugly pride that had prompted such thinking in this guy and that would totally prevent discipleship from happening.

In the example I gave, the kid asked a legitimate question, the Bible has numerous accounts like the resurrection records that are seemingly contradicting one another, just take Gen. 1 and Gen. 2 for example, they look like two different creations accounts, you’ll get that impression if you don’t know better and read them chronologically.

"If you don't know..." Exactly. If you "lack knowledge" or are ignorant of the difference in the nature of the two Creation accounts. This characterization is not a pejorative one, but a simple statement of fact.

That doesn’t make you ignorant, and asking questions is not attacking or challenging the Bible. Faith is NOT blind.

I never said asking questions was challenging or attacking the Bible, nor did I say faith ought to be blind. Why, then, do you seem to be implying here that I did?

Also, if one is ignorant of the less-than-strict chronological nature of Creation accounts, then that does make one ignorant - not across-the-board about everything, obviously, but certainly about this feature of the Creation accounts. It's not an ad hominem attack to point this out, but an accurate description of a knowledge-condition.

You don't know that. "Split tongues on fire" (2:3) sounds pretty much like a supernatural sensation, it was not just mere words.

??? I do know it - because I have read the account of the event.

Nothing in the account of Acts 2 says the "tongues of flame" were hot, or produced any sensation in the disciples. Only the fact that they were visible is mentioned. And by the time the disciples went into the street to preach the Gospel, the tongues of flame were gone. Though the remarks of those in the street were recorded, none of what they say makes any remark about tongues of flame hovering over the heads of the disciples, which would be very strange if they were still hovering over them. The tongues of flame, then, were a brief, visual cue of the presence of the Holy Spirit and his entering into those over whom his "flame" hovered, having nothing directly to do with the salvation of the 3000 that followed from the preaching of the Gospel.

We've already had persecution, censorship, deplatforming and shutdown are just a foretaste, don't ask for it.

??? Don't ask for it? Have I? I don't think so...

If you think these days the hostility of the world toward the church is unprecedented, you've seen nothing yet, you have no idea of the horror and suffering in the Great Tribution, which I believe is imminent.

Have I written that the "hostility of the world toward the Church is unprecedented"? No. And you have no idea, either, of what the Great Tribulation will entail as far as the suffering and horror of it are concerned. Why, then, make such a comment to me?

Followers of Christ are compared with salt of the earth, an important function of salt is preservation. Preservation is not prevention, salt couldn't prevent or stop the decay, it only delays it.

Uh huh.

Yeah, experience, not just knowledge. You gotta be a doer, not just a hearer.

I'd point out here that before doing there is being. In the Christian life, doing is supposed to be the natural manifestation of being, actually. I'd be very careful, then, not to miss this step between hearing and doing.

What about those who have had zero access to the word of God in their native language and zero opportunity to a missionary? I'm not just talking about muslim and communist countries, you've got large portion of the population in the west who only know God and Christ as curse words. Are they all condemned to the Lake of Fire for eternity?

All who end up in hell do so because they sin against the "law of God written on their heart" and because they "suppress the truth in unrighteousness." That they haven't heard the Gospel is a secondary matter. All who seek God can be sure He will draw near to them, wherever they are (James 4:8). But, "men love darkness rather than light because their deeds are evil. He who does evil hates the light, neither comes to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved." (John 3:19) This is why folks go to hell, not because God has willfully and unfairly withheld the Gospel from them.

This is why I keep reminding you that God uses all sorts of available resources to preach his gospel.

Yes, apologetics helps "clear away the bushes" so that Christ can be fully and clearly seen, but apologetics cannot save. Far more than they need apologetics, lost people need to hear the Gospel, which is "the power of God unto salvation to every one who believes it." (Romans 1:16)

 

[WIP]

Hey All,
So let's not argue. When we argue we both want to win. This doesn't have to be competitive.

I have my view. You have your view. We discuss the differences, examine the similarities, and enjoy the process. Our beliefs are personal. I can point out where I believe you are wrong. You can do the same with me. There does not have to be an antagonistic bent to our discussion.

Keep walking everybody.
May God bless,
Taz

There's a difference between and argument and a fight.

 

[GodsGrace]

Hey All,
Good study overall carry_your_name.
I would make the case that using the Bible to prove the Bible is not circular reasoning.

The Bible is not one witness The Bible is a collection of books; a bibliography. We have some 40+ authors, who, living at different times throughout 1500-1600 years of history, felt compelled to write down their independent thoughts for the rest of humanity. The main theme is Messiah who will come, and Jesus who is Messiah.

Then the Holy Spirit weaved these thoughts together into the account we have today.

So it is not circular reasoning to use Matthew as proof of what Isaiah wrote; different people, different times. They are two independent witnesses.

Keep walking everybody.
May God bless,
Taz

Your theory would show that prophecies were fulfilled.
If that could be considered a reason....maybe, maybe not.

My feeling is that the OP is correct and some type of outside source is necessary.

How about the cosmology theory?
Why does anything exist?
How did it get here?

Physical Laws....the more we learn, the more questions are raised.

How did the cell come into being?
How did it work before it "evolved"?

And math. Did WE invent it? Or does it just work?
What is it anyway?

Consciousness.
What's that?

I think to an unbeliever this type of reasoning has to be used.

If a person does not believe in the bible...why should they trust the bible?

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

I have full confidence and faith in God my Bible is sound, the same Bible Christ and His apostles used. The differences in mss in word order, spelling, synonyms....not materially affecting the conclusion every jot and tittle (=smallest meaning) will be "fulfilled" [which implies its 100% preservation]:

Just because a translation is sound doesn’t mean it’s perfect, there’s always more to know, there’s always potential errors to challenge, otherwise you wouldn’t have posted the piece about asymmetric Janus Parallelism. I can assure you that in the NKJV you use, Heb. 1:6 quote is missing in Deut. 32:43.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

??? A PH.D-level nuclear physicist does not know all that there is to know about the physics of the universe, but this doesn't mean he's ignorant about physics. Not knowing everything does not mean one knows nothing. In the same way, not being able to fully plumb the fathomless depths of God's word doesn't mean the person who has studied it carefully for fifty years is a biblical ignoramus. Though, they don't know everything about God's Truth, they do know something of it - certainly far, far more than the one who's only studied the Bible for a year, or not at all.

Yes, it does - especially if that person knows nothing of a subject about which I know a great deal.

I had a guy sit down with me a few years ago to begin a course of discipleship who said to me, "I just want to be clear that we have things to learn from each other in this course. We'll be able to teach one another; our study will be a two-way street." I was quite surprised by his words since he was brand-new to the Christian faith and understood almost nothing about it (which is why he was being discipled by me). I replied, "What about the faith do you think can teach me? I've been walking with God for fifty years; you've been a Christian for less than a year." He assured me that, though he couldn't think of anything at the moment, as we went along, he'd be able to show me things I didn't know about the faith.

It was clear to me that this guy's "cup was full" and if he didn't empty it, acknowledge his profound ignorance and adopt the role of learner fully, attempting to disciple him would be futile and I said so. He was shocked by my reply, of course. So, I proceeded to demonstrate how huge a gap there was between my knowledge and understanding of the faith and his. Just a few questions about the most basic features of the faith revealed he knew practically nothing about what it was to be a Christian. I answered my own questions comprehensively from God's word, quoting many verses from memory in doing so and asked him if he could do the same. Embarrassed, he admitted he could not. Why, then, did he think he had things about the faith he could teach me? It was sheer ugly pride that had prompted such thinking in this guy and that would totally prevent discipleship from happening.

See, "ignorance" and "knowledge" are relative. A PHD level nuclear physicist may be ignorant of God's word, but surely knowledgable in physics; you may be knowledgable God's word, but ignorant in physics. This does NOT give neither of you the right to call the other one ignorant, it's exactly a two way street. I noted in a previous post that the Pharisees and scribes were very knowledgeable in the Torah, they spoke the original Hebrew, so why were they spiritually blinded? Why did they know neither the Son nor the Father? Don't get me wrong, I'm not insinuating that you're a Pharisee, but the truth of the matter is, knowledge is NOT testimony. At the end, God didn't send two theologians, he sends two WITNESSES (Rev. 11:3); the saints were not seminary graduates, but WITNESSES who bear the testimony of Christ (Rev. 12:17). In Matt. 24:14 Jesus prophesied: "the gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations." Not as a religion, a conversion or an education, but as a WITNESS. That physicist may know a lot about what it is like "before the foundation of the world", that'd be a testimony which you don't know.

Now you may have a low opinion on secular knowledge, you may think that the bible is superior over all other knowledge. Alright, even if that's the case, there's still a lot to learn beyond those fifty years experience on your resume if you read God's word from a different perspective, for example, a messianic view. To most Christians, the OT laws and prophecies were obsolete, and the OT Israel is a cautionary tale, their sole purpose was pointing to Jesus, but nothing could be further from the truth.

"If you don't know..." Exactly. If you "lack knowledge" or are ignorant of the difference in the nature of the two Creation accounts. This characterization is not a pejorative one, but a simple statement of fact.

I would be cautious of such an attitude, sir. This is hubris. Arrogance. This example about the creation account in particular is not just a conundrum for the newbies, it has baffled many theologians and rabbis. There was a Jewish legend of Lilith, the first woman who was simultaneously created out of the dust along with Adam before Eve was created from Adam's side, this myth is based on a misunderstanding of the creation account, where one says God created male AND female, the other says God only created Adam from the dust, and then Eve from Adam's side. They failed to see that Gen. 2 was another perspective that went into details of Day 6, where God created male and female on the same day, but not necessarily in the same second. Likewise, it was Catholic tradition that Peter was the first pope who founded the church, based on a misunderstanding of Jesus's commendation to Peter - "you're Peter (rock), on this rock I'll build my church, and the gate of hell will not prevail over it." They had not fifty years' journey with God, they had more than 1,500 years' journey with God, are you gonna brag your knowledge before them? Are you gonna call them ignorant? And yet, they could still learn from a new believer who's smart enough to correctly discern the words and not fall for these myths.