Beware of circular reasoning!

[journeymanisnothing]

I'm just pointing out why the Messiah said,

if I go not away the Comforter will not come unto you Jn.16:7 KJV

 

[WIP]

Circular reasoning is a common pitfall we often find ourselves trapped in. It's a logical fallacy that uses a preconceived conclusion of an argument as the basis of that argument to support it.

Without having a preconceived view, how can one have an argument?

 

[Alfred Persson]

Circular reasoning is a common pitfall we often find ourselves trapped in. It's a logical fallacy that uses a preconceived conclusion of an argument as the basis of that argument to support it. A good example is this one below regarding the existence of God and/or the infallability of the bible -

How do you know there's a God? Because the bible says so! How do you know the bible is true? Because it's inspired by God!

A fundemantal principle in the bible is that you need two or more witnesses to prove a point. In this example above, there's only one witness, which is the bible, it's God's special revelation to us, we've formed a Christian worldview around this special revelation. The problem is, we often take the bible for granted as God's only revelation, and we often assume that other people share the same worldview with us, they understand our lingo, our references and our presupposition, when actually they don't, what some terms mean to us could mean very different thing to them, there's not much common ground. If we only use the bible, especially 2 Tim. 3:16, then we only have one witness, and we're stuck in circular reasoning with no extra evidence to corroborate.

You picked an invalid example of circular reasoning. The Bible consists of 66 different books, written by about 40 different people, on different continents, in 3 different languages, over 1,500 years. Its not "one witness". In fact, the Bible is the "perfect empirical experiment" proving God exists because whether a witness of God is priest, king, soldier or prophet, God never changes =the Reality of God these different independent witnesses report did not rise from single cultural or human causes.

And if unbelievers reject the soundness of the above argument, it reveals they either are fools or insincere. The argument remains critically sound.


A simple example of circular reasoning fallacy is:

"Chocolate is the best flavor because nothing tastes better than chocolate."

In this statement, the conclusion that chocolate is the best flavor is supported only by the assertion that nothing tastes better than chocolate, which is essentially restating the conclusion in different words.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

You picked an invalid example of circular reasoning. The Bible consists of 66 different books, written by about 40 different people, on different continents, in 3 different languages, over 1,500 years. Its not "one witness". In fact, the Bible is the "perfect empirical experiment" proving God exists because whether a witness of God is priest, king, soldier or prophet, God never changes =the Reality of God these different independent witnesses report did not rise from single cultural or human causes.

And if unbelievers reject the soundness of the above argument, it reveals they either are fools or insincere. The argument remains critically sound.


A simple example of circular reasoning fallacy is:

"Chocolate is the best flavor because nothing tastes better than chocolate."

In this statement, the conclusion that chocolate is the best flavor is supported only by the assertion that nothing tastes better than chocolate, which is essentially restating the conclusion in different words.

The bible interprets itself, you don’t need extrabiblical sources to interpret anything, that’s what Sola Scriptura means; however, the Bible does not VALIDATE itself, the works of God in this world does, his creation testifies his existence and praises his glory. The Bible alone didn’t inform you these pieces of information - “written by about 40 different people, on different continents, in 3 different languages, over 1,500 years.” Which verse in which book says this? Obviously the Holy Spirit used extrabiblical sources to show you this, not just the Bible. Same as other historical and archaeological evidence that corroborates Israel’s history in the biblical narrative.

In fact, the last line in John clearly indicates that there’s more beyond the Bible and encourages us to explore more - “and there are also many other things Jesus did, which if they were written one by one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that would be written. Amen.” One of these things is found in Acts 20:35 where Paul preached this saying of Jesus - “it is more blessed to give than to receive.” This saying is not found anywhere in the four canonical gospels, not even in non-canonical gospels like Thomas, in your logic Paul must’ve falsified because it’s “not in the Bible,” but just because it’s not recorded in the gospels doesn’t mean Paul made it up.

It is written that “TASTE and SEE that the Lord is good;” it doesn’t say “listen and read that the Lord is good.” If you only listen to sermons and read the Bible, then as I mentioned previously, you’re just playing religion, and the Bible is just a collection of those 66 books, you’ve never personally had an encounter with God and you’ve never known why it matters, then your faith could be easily challenged and shattered. This is why we’ve got widespread apostasy and deconstruction of belief, it’s not just “fools” and “sinners” as you thought, it’s major denominations, famous pastors and worship leaders.

 

[Alfred Persson]

The bible interprets itself, you don’t need extrabiblical sources to interpret anything, that’s what Sola Scriptura means; however, the Bible does not VALIDATE itself, the works of God in this world does, his creation testifies his existence and praises his glory. The Bible alone didn’t inform you these pieces of information - “written by about 40 different people, on different continents, in 3 different languages, over 1,500 years.” Which verse in which book says this? Obviously the Holy Spirit used extrabiblical sources to show you this, not just the Bible. Same as other historical and archaeological evidence that corroborates Israel’s history in the biblical narrative.

In fact, the last line in John clearly indicates that there’s more beyond the Bible and encourages us to explore more - “and there are also many other things Jesus did, which if they were written one by one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that would be written. Amen.” One of these things is found in Acts 20:35 where Paul preached this saying of Jesus - “it is more blessed to give than to receive.” This saying is not found anywhere in the four canonical gospels, not even in non-canonical gospels like Thomas, in your logic Paul must’ve falsified because it’s “not in the Bible,” but just because it’s not recorded in the gospels doesn’t mean Paul made it up.

It is written that “TASTE and SEE that the Lord is good;” it doesn’t say “listen and read that the Lord is good.” If you only listen to sermons and read the Bible, then as I mentioned previously, you’re just playing religion, and the Bible is just a collection of those 66 books, you’ve never personally had an encounter with God and you’ve never known why it matters, then your faith could be easily challenged and shattered. This is why we’ve got widespread apostasy and deconstruction of belief, it’s not just “fools” and “sinners” as you thought, it’s major denominations, famous pastors and worship leaders.

Sir, I explained precisely why many apologists consider the Bible its own best validation. Empiricism. Look it up. To sum it up, over 40 different men independently experienced God, and their witness agrees with each other. Thats 40 EYEWITNESSES WHO EXPERIENCED GOD. That's far better than the "two witnesses" you argued necessary.

Empiricism, in philosophy, the view that all concepts originate in experience, that all concepts are about or applicable to things that can be experienced, or that all rationally acceptable beliefs or propositions are justifiable or knowable only through experience...

The third definition of empiricism is a theory of knowledge, or theory of justification. It views beliefs, or at least some vital classes of belief—e.g., the belief that this object is red—as depending ultimately and necessarily on experience for their justification. An equivalent way of stating this thesis is to say that all human knowledge is derived from experience.

Empiricism regarding concepts and empiricism regarding knowledge do not strictly imply each other. Many empiricists have admitted that there are a priori propositions but have denied that there are a priori concepts. It is rare, however, to find a philosopher who accepts a priori concepts but denies a priori propositions.

Stressing experience, empiricism often opposes the claims of authority, intuition, imaginative conjecture, and abstract, theoretical, or systematic reasoning as sources of reliable belief. Its most fundamental antithesis is with the latter—i.e., with rationalism, also called intellectualism or apriorism. A rationalist theory of concepts asserts that some concepts are a priori and that these concepts are innate, or part of the original structure or constitution of the mind.-Encyclopedia Britannica

Being aware of circular reasoning is a good start on the way to critical thinking. Its only the start, not the finish.

Critical thinking is the intellectually disciplined process of actively and skillfully conceptualizing, applying, analyzing, synthesizing, and/or evaluating information gathered from, or generated by, observation, experience, reflection, reasoning, or communication, as a guide to belief and action.

I suggest you look more carefully, Amazon.com has reams of books on the subject.

Then you will leap frog ahead of God's enemies, being able to give valid and sound answers for your Christian faith.

Making unsound arguments against the empirical evidence the Bible provides, proves the journey is just beginning.

 

[Alfred Persson]

The bible interprets itself, you don’t need extrabiblical sources to interpret anything, that’s what Sola Scriptura means; however, the Bible does not VALIDATE itself, the works of God in this world does, his creation testifies his existence and praises his glory. The Bible alone didn’t inform you these pieces of information - “written by about 40 different people, on different continents, in 3 different languages, over 1,500 years.” Which verse in which book says this? Obviously the Holy Spirit used extrabiblical sources to show you this, not just the Bible. Same as other historical and archaeological evidence that corroborates Israel’s history in the biblical narrative.

In fact, the last line in John clearly indicates that there’s more beyond the Bible and encourages us to explore more - “and there are also many other things Jesus did, which if they were written one by one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that would be written. Amen.” One of these things is found in Acts 20:35 where Paul preached this saying of Jesus - “it is more blessed to give than to receive.” This saying is not found anywhere in the four canonical gospels, not even in non-canonical gospels like Thomas, in your logic Paul must’ve falsified because it’s “not in the Bible,” but just because it’s not recorded in the gospels doesn’t mean Paul made it up.

It is written that “TASTE and SEE that the Lord is good;” it doesn’t say “listen and read that the Lord is good.” If you only listen to sermons and read the Bible, then as I mentioned previously, you’re just playing religion, and the Bible is just a collection of those 66 books, you’ve never personally had an encounter with God and you’ve never known why it matters, then your faith could be easily challenged and shattered. This is why we’ve got widespread apostasy and deconstruction of belief, it’s not just “fools” and “sinners” as you thought, it’s major denominations, famous pastors and worship leaders.

Many more fallacies to beware of:

Master List of Logical Fallacies

 

[Tenchi]

At least don’t just quote 2 Tim. 3:16. If that’s all you know, you’re surely circular reasoning, that’ll be the example I gave in the OP.

??? Not understanding you here... Nothing I wrote in my last post was circular in its reasoning.

Yes, two witnesses may be both false, that’s why potentially you need more.

But you're missing my point. If two witnesses can be false, why can't three, or four, or twenty? Well, they can. And so, something else beyond the mere number of witnesses is obviously required in establishing what is true.

Besides, the point is, if you only have one witness, that’s surely not enough whether that’s true or false, and that’ll very likely to lead you into circular reasoning.

The truth or rationality of a proposition doesn't depend upon number. Thinking it does is the fallacious idea of Argumentum ad Populum, or the Argument from the Majority. The majority has been wrong many, many times. Think Galileo.

I raised this concern previously in this thread about this other form of circular reasoning called circular reporting - publication A puts out a piece of false information, then publications B, C, D and so on reprint it. They seem to be independent sources, but there’s only one source which is A.

This doesn't describe the Bible at all. Did you not actually understand what I wrote about the nature of the Bible's formation? It's entirely unlike the "circular reporting" you've described.

Now if you have the Bible, they could argue this divine origin is a myth, all 66 books are circular reporting and perpetuating this myth

A person could argue this - but they would demonstrate profound ignorance about the Bible, if they did.

Actually, all of your points are historical records, especially 3) and 4), those are independent extrabiblical evidence. You’re not quoting the Bible to defend the Bible because you know that would be circular reasoning.

Exactly. Glad you noticed that I wasn't employing circular reasoning.

That’s not how Jesus defended God’s glory when he was facing questions and challenges from the Pharisees in John 8:13-19.

??? Jesus was God incarnate. When he spoke to the Pharisees in the passage you've cited here, he wasn't defending God's glory, but was testifying to his oneness with God Almighty. And as God, the Author of the Bible, he had no need to refer to it but was, as he spoke extemporaneously, issuing a portion of the Bible itself, with all of the divine power attendant upon it.

And how the Father bears witness? Through works of miracle, which I explained in the OP. The same applies to the disciples in Acts, their words didn’t win hearts and souls, their actions did.

Yes, miracles helped confirm Christ's claim both to spiritual authority and deity. But they didn't make what Jesus taught and claimed about himself more true, nor did they happen in an effort to avoid circular reasoning on Jesus's part.

The same applies to the disciples in Acts, their words didn’t win hearts and souls, their actions did.

??? Not so. Read Acts 2. It was words alone, spoken in the power of the Spirit, that saved 3000 souls in one day. No healing miracles were performed, no exorcisms, no zaps or tingles felt, nobody convulsed on the ground while laughing hysterically, just the truth of the Gospel was preached in divine power.

You know, it says in James that we must be doers of God’s words, not just hearers because hearing God’s words alone is NOT enough, if you think that’s enough, you’re playing religion, like numerous people who testified that they grew up in a Christian home, attending church every week, but they never knew Jesus.

??? I have no idea why you wrote this... You don't know anything about the content of my life. Nothing. Why, then, write this rather obnoxious bit, here?

Pharisees, scribes and lawyers in Jesus’s days were OT experts, they could recite the whole Torah, and yet they were the biggest villains who hated Jesus the most, except Nicodemus.

And your point is? You're holding forth quite a bit in this thread about how Christians ought to think and act. Does this make you of a kind with these "biggest villains," the Pharisees and scribes, who did the same? I'm sure you'd say not.

With the Bible alone, you only know ABOUT Jesus; it takes personal experience to really know Him and to follow Him, sometimes it could be the hard way like Job, losing all your treasures, hitting rock bottom, that’s when you finally realize that all you need is Jesus when all you have is Jesus.

I strongly suspect you have no personal, concrete idea of what you're talking about here...

Do you actually know what "experiencing Jesus" entails? What does the Bible tell us fellowship with God looks like? I would not be surprised to discover that you don't really know.

This experience is the second witness, and natural theology, philosophical arguments, scientific evidence and anecdotal reports, all of those could be part of this experience. Holy Spirit is everywhere, God could use any resources available to you to point you to Jesus.

An experience of God and a knowledge of God are not necessarily the same thing. They overlap, yes, but they are by no means synonymous. Natural theology, philosophy and science can point to God but they can't, by themselves, deliver to you a direct, personal, concrete and transformational experience of Him.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Sir, I explained precisely why many apologists consider the Bible its own best validation. Empiricism. Look it up. To sum it up, over 40 different men independently experienced God, and their witness agrees with each other. Thats 40 EYEWITNESSES WHO EXPERIENCED GOD. That's far better than the "two witnesses" you argued necessary.

And I explained precisely that neither those 40 authors nor 66 books can be considered as independent witnesses because of the circular reporting fallacy. Nowadays you can name 40 news outlets and 66 articles of one political narrative, all agreeing with each other, but all of them actually originated from one source, so there’s only one witness. Therefore it’s not just about the number, but also validity. “You shall now bear false witness against your neighbor.” If you really believe in empiricism, you must “taste and see” the works of God in you and others around you, then you’d experience the power of the Holy Spirit and know that God’s word is truth.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

??? Not understanding you here... Nothing I wrote in my last post was circular in its reasoning.

No you wasn't, but plenty of other folks are essentially circular reasoning, they got mad when I raised a legitimate concern regarding the authority of the bible.

But you're missing my point. If two witnesses can be false, why can't three, or four, or twenty? Well, they can. And so, something else beyond the mere number of witnesses is obviously required in establishing what is true.

The two witness rule is extended from the 9th commandment - "you shall not bear false witness against your neighbor." Two or more witnesses are all presumed to be true. Regarding Jesus's trial, I've showed you in the OP that the Pharisees were circular reasoning when they brought Jesus to Pilate.

The truth or rationality of a proposition doesn't depend upon number. Thinking it does is the fallacious idea of Argumentum ad Populum, or the Argument from the Majority. The majority has been wrong many, many times. Think Galileo.

"Witness" is not limited to a person. Argumentum ad Populum or the Argument from the Majority is essentially the same as circular reporting, it can be debunked with physical - or empirical - evidence through independent research or investigation.

This doesn't describe the Bible at all. Did you not actually understand what I wrote about the nature of the Bible's formation? It's entirely unlike the "circular reporting" you've described.

A person could argue this - but they would demonstrate profound ignorance about the Bible, if they did.

I'm afraid you're guilty of ad hominem fallacy - attacking your opponent for being foolish and ignorant. I'm not talking about leftists or muslims who viciously attack us, I'm talking about folks in the Christian community.

There was a kid who once asked his pastor about the inconsistency about Jesus's resurrection between the synoptic gospels and John, was it three women came to the tomb or just Mary Magdalene? Did they see an angel rolling the stone away, or was the stone already rolled away when they arrived? The pastor admonished him for questioning the bible and dismissed him, told him to do his own homework, and this kid lost his faith.

So please, don't get me wrong. There's this bumper sticker slogan: "Bible says it, I believe it, and that settles it." I'm not here attacking the bible, I'm here attacking the attitude in this slogan.

??? Jesus was God incarnate. When he spoke to the Pharisees in the passage you've cited here, he wasn't defending God's glory, but was testifying to his oneness with God Almighty. And as God, the Author of the Bible, he had no need to refer to it but was, as he spoke extemporaneously, issuing a portion of the Bible itself, with all of the divine power attendant upon it.

How do you know that? There're a few folks on this forum arguing against Jesus's deity, they even suggest that the Alpha and the Omega in Rev. 1 is God himself, while Jesus is just a human servant, incarnation is nonsense, God can't be man.

Yes, miracles helped confirm Christ's claim both to spiritual authority and deity. But they didn't make what Jesus taught and claimed about himself more true, nor did they happen in an effort to avoid circular reasoning on Jesus's part.

You know, Pilate once famously asked, "what is truth?" The real question is, "whose truth?" One man's words are just personal truth from his own perspective, but one man's works are public truth which all can see and none can deny. With his works of miracle, Jesus was BOTH defending God's glory AND testifying to his oneness with God.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

??? Not so. Read Acts 2. It was words alone, spoken in the power of the Spirit, that saved 3000 souls in one day. No healing miracles were performed, no exorcisms, no zaps or tingles felt, nobody convulsed on the ground while laughing hysterically, just the truth of the Gospel was preached in divine power.

That wasn't just mere words preached by Peter, man. It was a concrete miracle, the fulfillment of the Feast of Weeks. The Holy Spirit miraculously translated testimonies of God into each soul's native language, they were given divine utterance.

??? I have no idea why you wrote this... You don't know anything about the content of my life. Nothing. Why, then, write this rather obnoxious bit, here?

And your point is? You're holding forth quite a bit in this thread about how Christians ought to think and act. Does this make you of a kind with these "biggest villains," the Pharisees and scribes, who did the same? I'm sure you'd say not.

I strongly suspect you have no personal, concrete idea of what you're talking about here...

Do you actually know what "experiencing Jesus" entails? What does the Bible tell us fellowship with God looks like? I would not be surprised to discover that you don't really know.

Do you, friend? What I described is what happened behind the great apostasy among most churches in recent years. You've got lots of fans of Jesus, but not disciples. To them, Jesus is a celebrity, not master. If you're not one of them, then good for you, praise God. I'm not telling you how to think or act, I'm informing you a heartbreaking reality, the fulfillment of 1 Tim. 4:1-3 and 2 Tim. 3:2-9.

An experience of God and a knowledge of God are not necessarily the same thing. They overlap, yes, but they are by no means synonymous. Natural theology, philosophy and science can point to God but they can't, by themselves, deliver to you a direct, personal, concrete and transformational experience of Him.

Then at least that's a good start, at least they prove the existence of God, whether you trust in God and surrender to Him is another matter. But if you're not even sure about God's existence and/or relevance to your life, how can you trust in Him?

 

[Alfred Persson]

And I explained precisely that neither those 40 authors nor 66 books can be considered as independent witnesses because of the circular reporting fallacy. Nowadays you can name 40 news outlets and 66 articles of one political narrative, all agreeing with each other, but all of them actually originated from one source, so there’s only one witness. Therefore it’s not just about the number, but also validity. “You shall now bear false witness against your neighbor.” If you really believe in empiricism, you must “taste and see” the works of God in you and others around you, then you’d experience the power of the Holy Spirit and know that God’s word is truth.

Not so. "Seeing is believing", empiricism. You yourself cited two witnesses are needed in the law, the Bible has 40 witnesses. They didn't actually see God, they saw His effects.

If 40 people see a Tornado's effects, not the wind, is it circular reasoning they testify in court what tossed cars and houses into the air?

No.

40 people, different in many ways, living on different continents speaking different languages, all testifying Yahweh is God because He caused powerful effects, identifying Himself (not leaving it up to people's imagination), is NOT circular reasoning.

The analogy to lying News Media and propaganda, is "not analogous", The incompatible property OF LYING renders them dissimilar, like comparing "apples to oranges".

While two witnesses limit lying, it doesn't prevent it in a conspiracy which our media proves every day.


And don't worry about me and the Holy Spirit, He gently is purging sin and delusion from my life constantly, getting me ready to be one with God in Christ Jesus my LORD, He in me and I in Him.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Not so. "Seeing is believing", empiricism. You yourself cited two witnesses are needed in the law, the Bible has 40 witnesses. They didn't actually see God, they saw His effects.

If 40 people see a Tornado's effects, not the wind, is it circular reasoning they testify in court what tossed cars and houses into the air?

No.

40 people, different in many ways, living on different continents speaking different languages, all testifying Yahweh is God because He caused powerful effects, identifying Himself (not leaving it up to people's imagination), is NOT circular reasoning.

The analogy to lying News Media and propaganda, is is "not analogous", The incompatible property OF LYING renders the comparison "apples to oranges". Lying isn't what truthful witnesses do.

Nope. Those 40 people are ONE witness, the tossed cars and houses and other wreckage are the independent second witness. If everything's fine, all cars and houses are safe and sound, and maybe there was just a whirlwind that caused some minor property damage, but 40 people testify that there was a huge tornado that tossed cars and houses into the air, which directly contradict the real situation, and then they present some photoes of a tornado at another time in another place, that's not empiricism, that's bearing false witness. I'm not suggesting or implying that's the case of the bible, but that's often the case of lying media.

And don't worry about me and the Holy Spirit, He gently is purging sin and delusion from my life constantly, getting me read to be one with God, He in me and I in Him.

OK, good to hear that, God bless. But besides the validity of the bible and the truthfulness of the witnesses, there's another challenge - how is the bible RELEVANT to our lives? It's an ancient codex written in dead languages, I believe it's inspired by God and it's all concrete truth, but how do I know it's timeless? How do I know it's not antiquated and outdated? And why does it matter to me when most of it is talking about Israel, another culture on the other side of the world? The answer to that lies within the prophecies, which distinguishes Christianity from all other religions. All the others are mostly about rules and philosophies and moralities, they are more or less an escape from reality; only the bible is full of histories and prophecies from the perspective of God's chosen people, they're not an escape from reality, but fulfillment IN reality. If you truly believe in empirical evidence, then you'd know that such evidence is not ancient history, but comtemporary experience and events, we're living in the thick of it, we're living in tribulations, we're living in perilous times.

 

[eddif]

Interesting
Seed are the word of God
Ground is men’s hearts
The word became flesh
Flesh became a life giving Spirir
Holy Spirit leads into all truth
Human anatomy tells the nature of God

The reference in:
Biology
Bible
Human anatomy
Understanding


Possibly link forming wheels within wheels

Mississippi redneck
eddif

 

[Alfred Persson]

Nope. Those 40 people are ONE witness, the tossed cars and houses and other wreckage are the independent second witness. If everything's fine, all cars and houses are safe and sound, and maybe there was just a whirlwind that caused some minor property damage, but 40 people testify that there was a huge tornado that tossed cars and houses into the air, which directly contradict the real situation, and then they present some photoes of a tornado at another time in another place, that's not empiricism, that's bearing false witness. I'm not suggesting or implying that's the case of the bible, but that's often the case of lying media.

OK, good to hear that, God bless. But besides the validity of the bible and the truthfulness of the witnesses, there's another challenge - how is the bible RELEVANT to our lives? It's an ancient codex written in dead languages, I believe it's inspired by God and it's all concrete truth, but how do I know it's timeless? How do I know it's not antiquated and outdated? And why does it matter to me when most of it is talking about Israel, another culture on the other side of the world? The answer to that lies within the prophecies, which distinguishes Christianity from all other religions. All the others are mostly about rules and philosophies and moralities, they are more or less an escape from reality; only the bible is full of histories and prophecies from the perspective of God's chosen people, they're not an escape from reality, but fulfillment IN reality. If you truly believe in empirical evidence, then you'd know that such evidence is not ancient history, but comtemporary experience and events, we're living in the thick of it, we're living in tribulations, we're living in perilous times.

40 different people are not "one witness". The Bible is a modern collection of separate books. Since the printing press, we see them as "one". But their collection between two covers doesn't make the testimony of 40 people, a testimony of one person.

The Bible is the operators manual, it never gets obsolete.

God does not change, nor does truth change, therefore nothing is outdated.

You don't realize it, but insisting we depend upon experience is empiricism, so its a self contradiction you use it against the Bible being empirical evidence for God.

Time does not invalidate experience. If it did one could argue the experiences you had before today, are not evidence of anything. Even to you. They are outdated, and non-repeatable. Why should anyone trust your past experiences which may have been an escape from reality. You can't prove otherwise.

PS: Bible writers identify themselves, which you don't do. Just a thought to ponder.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

40 different people are not "one witness". The Bible is a modern collection of separate books. Since the printing press, we see them as "one". But their collection between two covers doesn't make the testimony of 40 people, a testimony of one person.

The Bible is the operators manual, it never gets obsolete.

God does not change, nor does truth change, therefore nothing is outdated.

You don't realize it, but insisting we depend upon experience is empiricism, so its a self contradiction you use it against the Bible being empirical evidence for God.

You're just repeating yourself. I actually explained why the bible is not 40 people doing circular reporting because of independent empirical evidence. You didn't demonstrate WHY the bible is true and relevant. You just insist it is. You fail to see it from another perspective. This is exactly that bumper sticker attitude I warned about - "bible says it, I believe it, and that settles it." No sir, that does NOT settle it. Operation manual itself doesn't prove that it never gets obsolete, a successful operation does.

 

[Alfred Persson]

You're just repeating yourself. I actually explained why the bible is not 40 people doing circular reporting because of independent empirical evidence. You didn't demonstrate WHY the bible is true and relevant. You just insist it is. You fail to see it from another perspective. This is exactly that bumper sticker attitude I warned about - "bible says it, I believe it, and that settles it." No sir, that does NOT settle it. Operation manual itself doesn't prove that it never gets obsolete, a successful operation does.

Millions of people report they were "born again" when they publicly confessed Jesus is LORD. This is throughout the earth, and has been true since the days of Christ. That is independent empirical evidence God exists, and is the rewarder of all earnestly seeking Him:

But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him. (Heb. 11:6 NKJ)

What is "unsuccessful" about God's operation? The wheat are being separated from the chaff very efficiently.

Even the Bible works perfectly as God intended, it stumbles the wicked, but the righteous rejoice in it:

8 "For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways," says the LORD.
9 "For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways, And My thoughts than your thoughts.
10 "For as the rain comes down, and the snow from heaven, And do not return there, But water the earth, And make it bring forth and bud, That it may give seed to the sower And bread to the eater,
11 So shall My word be that goes forth from My mouth; It shall not return to Me void, But it shall accomplish what I please, And it shall prosper in the thing for which I sent it. (Isa. 55:8-11 NKJ)

So does Christ:

"Behold, I lay in Zion A chief cornerstone, elect, precious, And he who believes on Him will by no means be put to shame."
7 Therefore, to you who believe, He is precious; but to those who are disobedient, "The stone which the builders rejected Has become the chief cornerstone,"
8 and "A stone of stumbling And a rock of offense." They stumble, being disobedient to the word, to which they also were appointed.
(1 Pet. 2:6-8 NKJ)

All this is working perfectly, exactly as God intended. Don't want TARES living with the Wheat in paradise, do we?

Neither does God. All are being separated out:

10 "And even now the ax is laid to the root of the trees. Therefore every tree which does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
11 "I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.
12 "His winnowing fan is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clean out His threshing floor, and gather His wheat into the barn; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire."
(Matt. 3:10-12 NKJ)

Everything is working just as God planned it.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Millions of people report they were "born again" when they publicly confessed Jesus is LORD. This is throughout the earth, and has been true since the days of Christ. That is independent empirical evidence God exists, and is the rewarder of all earnestly seeking Him:

See, you do realize that you need new input of information to support your argument, right? Which one of these millions of people is one of the 40 authors? And how many of these people were born and raised in secular or other religious homes with no previous exposure to Christianity?

What is "unsuccessful" about God's operation?

Everything is working just as God planned it.

God's operation is always successful, the problem is one's intentional denial and/or ignorance. The point is that you can't know whether a machine really works or not just by reading its operation manual, maybe one fails to understand the manual and/or one lacks the skill to operate by the book, then they conclude that the manual is fake and the design is a failure. Their personal failure doesn't discredit the manual, because other people who do understand the manual and do possess the neccessarily skill to operate have had a successful operation. Essentially, the former only has the manual as one witness, the latter has both the manual AND the success as TWO witnesses.

 

[eddif]

A person can deliver two witnesses about a situation.

Three persons can approach a situation with their viewpoint.

If the hidden man of rhe heart looks like a natural pacemaker / creation speaks.
If the Bible mentions the hidden man of the heart / scripture speaks.
If Jesus mentions the heart / the word become flesh speaks.
If a person suddenly understands the Symbolism / the eyes of understanding has been opened .

Multiple levels of witness.

God makes a seed (DNA story)
Plants a seed
Sees the contents of the seed flourish into the evidence mentioned already.

Creation is a witness
Scripture is a witness (Prophets etc.)
Jesus is a witness (Parables)
At Pentecost many were empowered to be witnesses. (By the Holy Spirit)
Different languages witness (Hebrew Greek)

Mississippi redneck
eddif

 

[Alfred Persson]

See, you do realize that you need new input of information to support your argument, right? Which one of these millions of people is one of the 40 authors? And how many of these people were born and raised in secular or other religious homes with no previous exposure to Christianity?


God's operation is always successful, the problem is one's intentional denial and/or ignorance. The point is that you can't know whether a machine really works or not just by reading its operation manual, maybe one fails to understand the manual and/or one lacks the skill to operate by the book, then they conclude that the manual is fake and the design is a failure. Their personal failure doesn't discredit the manual, because other people who do understand the manual and do possess the neccessarily skill to operate have had a successful operation. Essentially, the former only has the manual as one witness, the latter has both the manual AND the success as TWO witnesses.

"I know because the Bible tells me so." I need nothing but Holy Scripture illumed by the Holy Spirit, it makes me complete for every good work:

16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work. (2 Tim. 3:16-17 NKJ)

All your protestations are irrelevant, immaterial and incompetent against the truthful testimony of 40 highly moral men who provided many infallible proofs God is everywhere, and declares to everyone what is right:

18 For thus says the LORD, Who created the heavens, Who is God, Who formed the earth and made it, Who has established it, Who did not create it in vain, Who formed it to be inhabited: "I am the LORD, and there is no other.
19 I have not spoken in secret, In a dark place of the earth; I did not say to the seed of Jacob,
`Seek Me in vain'; I, the LORD, speak righteousness, I declare things that are right. (Isa. 45:18-19 NKJ)

Both God's creation which manifests His glory, and Holy Scripture present every sincere seeker of truth with an overwhelming mass of irrefutable evidence God is, and He is the rewarder of all who diligently seek Him:

38 Now the just shall live by faith; But if anyone draws back, My soul has no pleasure in him."
39 But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul.
1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
2 For by it the elders obtained a good testimony.
3 By faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that the things which are seen were not made of things which are visible.
4 By faith Abel offered to God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, through which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts; and through it he being dead still speaks.
5 By faith Enoch was taken away so that he did not see death, "and was not found, because God had taken him"; for before he was taken he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him. (Heb. 10:38-11:6 NKJ)

More up to the date and 100% reliable information on current events DOESN'T EXIST.

In scripture is the big reveal, the truth about all things now and in the future:

The invalid and unsound arguments you raised against the Anvil of God, have been shattered into pieces.


6 Therefore it is also contained in the Scripture, "Behold, I lay in Zion A chief cornerstone, elect, precious, And he who believes on Him will by no means be put to shame."
7 Therefore, to you who believe, He is precious; but to those who are disobedient, "The stone which the builders rejected Has become the chief cornerstone,"
8 and "A stone of stumbling And a rock of offense." They stumble, being disobedient to the word, to which they also were appointed. (1 Pet. 2:6-8 NKJ)

 

[Tenchi]

That wasn't just mere words preached by Peter, man. It was a concrete miracle, the fulfillment of the Feast of Weeks. The Holy Spirit miraculously translated testimonies of God into each soul's native language, they were given divine utterance.

Yes, the Spirit worked through the words of the disciples, not through spastic hysteria, or instant healings, or whatever. It was the Gospel, spoken to the lost, invested with supernatural power by the Holy Spirit that was all that was required to persuade 3000 people to faith in Jesus Christ.

But it is true that every saved person has, in being saved, become a miracle. There is so much that is stacked against the lost sinner coming to faith in Christ that, if not for the supernatural power of God, no one could ever be saved.

Do you, friend? What I described is what happened behind the great apostasy among most churches in recent years.

The "Great Apostasy" of the modern church began many decades ago, as far back, I think, as the 1920s and 30s. Tent revivals, youth evangelism movements, hyper-charismaticism, seeker-sensitive churches, the industrialization/commercialization of Church ministries - these (and other) things have contributed to a long, slow, but steady juvenilization of the Church in the West so that, today, it is profoundly weak, immature, corrupt and ignorant.

You've got lots of fans of Jesus, but not disciples. To them, Jesus is a celebrity, not master.

We've got folks who have much head knowledge, high credentialing, who are telling the rest of us what it is to know and walk with God who haven't got an experience of Him themselves that is direct, distinct and transformative. In fact, because this is so, they camp on intellectual aspects of the faith - doctrinal minutiae, Christian philosophy, various theological points of contention, endless wrangling over Bible translation, etc. - or they dilute and corrupt a spiritual experience of God with secular pop-psychology, and/or with secular ideologies, and/or with New Age, eastern mystical thought and practice. And the lay-population in many churches just eats up what they are told, reflexively deferring to the credentialed "expert," uncritically following the latest "interesting" Christian leader into whatever exciting new "movement" that leader is holding out to them. At bottom, though, this all happens because the average "Christian" in the average western church has no real, daily, transformative, biblical fellowship of their own with God (2 Corinthians 13:14; 1 John 1:3; Revelation 3:20). They have not been discipled into such fellowship (because no one else is having fellowship with God, either), as the Bible directs they should be (Matthew 28:19-20; 2 Timothy 2:2; Matthew 16:24-25, etc.), and so come to believe that actual intimate communion with God is impossible. Generation after generation of Christians have traveled this road over the last seven decades or so, creating in the West a now deeply-compromised and spiritually confused and childish Church. It won't be apologetics that moves the Church out of this condition but persecution, the crucible of purification and refinement, and a return to proper fellowship with God and discipling of His children out of that fellowship.

Then at least that's a good start, at least they prove the existence of God, whether you trust in God and surrender to Him is another matter.

Quite. Very often, at least in my experience, though, Christians halt at apologetics, at intellectual engagement with divine Truth, and refuse to venture into the life-transforming experience of the Author of that Truth.

But if you're not even sure about God's existence and/or relevance to your life, how can you trust in Him?

Knowing about God is no certain route to trusting Him. The demons believe and tremble, right? They have a knowledge of God that most Christians would love to have, but the demons aren't persuaded by that knowledge to submission to, and trust of, their holy Maker.

What God intends is that His children should know Him directly and personally, not in some bizarre, pagan-ish, hyper-charismatic, but in the way the Bible plainly describes. When they do, as they do, their trust in Him deepens profoundly and their lives coalesce increasingly, naturally and powerfully around Him. And as this happens, the Church corporately becomes what God intended it should be: A bright, shining beacon of Light, of God, to the dark, lost world.

The two witness rule is extended from the 9th commandment - "you shall not bear false witness against your neighbor." Two or more witnesses are all presumed to be true.

This misses my point: Any number of witnesses can be false. How does one guard against this reality in arriving at the truth? The very fact that the Bible commands us not to bear false witness indicates that witnesses can be false. But if this is possible, the mere number of witnesses can't, then, be a sure means of coming to the truth of a matter. More is required to secure, or reveal, the truth as the truth.

I'm afraid you're guilty of ad hominem fallacy - attacking your opponent for being foolish and ignorant. I'm not talking about leftists or muslims who viciously attack us, I'm talking about folks in the Christian community.

Careful. You're using the fallacious Strawman line of argumentation, here. I did not say anyone was being "foolish" (this is your addition to my remarks) and when I spoke of "ignorance" I meant it, not in a colloquially-pejorative sense, but in the sense of "lacking knowledge." If a person obviously lacks knowledge, if they are clearly ignorant about a certain subject to which they are proposing to speak, it is not ad hominem to point this out.