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Born again ! ?

T

twinc

Member
imho what has been overlooked is that as a jew this was required, for Nicodemus, to be born again as a Christian of water and spirit - imho it is not required of Christians to be born again and again and again of water and spirit but maybe just of spirit perhaps - any comments - twinc
 
Are you saying someone is teaching that one has to be repeatedly baptized?
 
if and when a person is born again, they are a totally new creation, born not of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of Yhvh the Creator of All.
this is rare, and wasn't a requirement in church for a long long long long long time. (and is still not a requirement in most brick and mortar churches).
but this is the only way to be a member of the ecclesia - the set apart ones in Yeshua HaMashiach.
 
twinc said:
imho what has been overlooked is that as a jew this was required, for Nicodemus, to be born again as a Christian of water and spirit - imho it is not required of Christians to be born again and again and again of water and spirit but maybe just of spirit perhaps - any comments - twinc
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Born of water is a reference to natural child birth.


JLB
 
God is a spirit and can only recognize his own children by what spirit is living in their hearts. We have to renew, rebirth - born again, Gods Spirit within us in order to be called a child of God and see the kingdom of heaven. We now put off the old man (flesh) and put on the new man (Spirit). We are renewed by the word of God and through the Holy Spirit teaching us of all things. (John 3:3-7; Romans 10:9,10; John 14:26)

You will not hear this taught in many Churches as there are many that are not of God, but made by hand and governed by the flesh and not the Spirit.
 
Salvation is by faith alone that we are justified and saved by grace as it is a free gift that we do not deserve, nor can we earn it, but is given freely, Ephesians 2:8. We are not saved by water baptism, but by that of Gods word that through the regeneration (baptism) of the Holy Spirit we are made Spiritually born again as now we no longer live after the flesh, but now seek those things from above in heaven, John 3:5,6.

Acts 2:38,39 When we repent of our sins and ask Jesus into our hearts we are also receiving the promise of God that his Spirit will come and dwell in our hearts and teach us of all things we need to learn, John 14:26. The baptism that Peter was talking about in Acts 2:38 was a Spiritual rebirth through the word of God. Some people think it is being dunked or sprinkled with water the way John the Baptist did and there is nothing wrong with that for it is an outward appearance to man that you have received Jesus and the Holy Spirit into your life, Matthew 3:11, but Jesus himself never baptized with water, John 4:2, for the baptism of Jesus was for receiving the Spirit of God (Holy Spirit) that helps us to know the will of the Father, 1 Thessalonians 4:1-12.

Being Spiritually born again is that of a Spiritual renewal through the word of God and the Holy Spirit that we are justified by faith alone.
Romans 3:22, 26, 28; 4:5; 5:1, Galatians 3:8, 24 say we are justified by faith, not faith and water baptism.
 
twinc said:
it seems that one has to repeatedly repent and be born again and again and again - via google see [The shocking message] by Paul Washer - twinc
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Oh, him. I thought you were being serious.
 
John 3
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God......King James Version (KJV) by Public Domain

Why would Jesus tell Nicodemus he had to enter the world through natural childbirth? Seems kinda redundant since Nicodemus wouldn't be standing there if he wasn't.


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Gary said:
John 3
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God......King James Version (KJV) by Public Domain

Why would Jesus tell Nicodemus he had to enter the world through natural childbirth? Seems kinda redundant since Nicodemus wouldn't be standing there if he wasn't.
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simple, if this may be allowed (here) >>> (the Jews understood, then and now) >>> as
“Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God” (John 3:5).
“Except a man be born of water” is a reference to the water baptism being practiced by the Jews. This was a baptism into the religion.
“To the baptism of water a man was admitted when he became a proselyte to the Jewish religion; and, in this baptism, he promised in the most solemn manner to renounce idolatry, to take the God of Israel for his God, and to have his life conformed to the precepts of the Divine law.” (Adam Clarke)
But Jesus, the teacher, Rabbi and Savior took this opportunity to show Nicodemus that a ceremonial water baptism was only symbolic of the true baptism of the Holy Spirit.
Jesus goes on to tell Nicodemus, “That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again” (John 3:6-7).

Jesus made it clear to Nicodemus that the ceremonial water baptism did not change the spirit. He was teaching Nicodemus that regeneration and renewing only comes through the washing of the Holy Ghost. Regeneration by spirit and not water would be difficult for this Pharisee to comprehend. He dealt within the realm of the law, ceremony and tradition. It is a realm where actions resulted in righteousness through works and deeds of the law. Here Jesus was telling him that dunking is fine but if you want to be born again into the Kingdom of God it is the spirit, not the body that needs be cleansed and with the Holy Ghost not with water.

“The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit” (John 3:8).
 
follower said:
simple, if this may be allowed (here) >>> (the Jews understood, then and now) >>> as
“Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God” (John 3:5).
“Except a man be born of water” is a reference to the water baptism being practiced by the Jews. This was a baptism into the religion.
“To the baptism of water a man was admitted when he became a proselyte to the Jewish religion; and, in this baptism, he promised in the most solemn manner to renounce idolatry, to take the God of Israel for his God, and to have his life conformed to the precepts of the Divine law.” (Adam Clarke)
But Jesus, the teacher, Rabbi and Savior took this opportunity to show Nicodemus that a ceremonial water baptism was only symbolic of the true baptism of the Holy Spirit.
Jesus goes on to tell Nicodemus, “That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again” (John 3:6-7).

Jesus made it clear to Nicodemus that the ceremonial water baptism did not change the spirit. He was teaching Nicodemus that regeneration and renewing only comes through the washing of the Holy Ghost. Regeneration by spirit and not water would be difficult for this Pharisee to comprehend. He dealt within the realm of the law, ceremony and tradition. It is a realm where actions resulted in righteousness through works and deeds of the law. Here Jesus was telling him that dunking is fine but if you want to be born again into the Kingdom of God it is the spirit, not the body that needs be cleansed and with the Holy Ghost not with water.

“The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit” (John 3:8).
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According to that sort of thinking, it would be necessary to become a Jew also, in order to be a Christian.
 
hmmmm....... i seem to remember something about Yhvh being the Creator. and Yhvh planning not just Creation, but salvation for the Jews and for the gentiles (all in His Word).
and Yhvh said salvation came through the Jews. (no worries 'bout what He meant at this point, just He said it).
and Yhvh said something about Jews rejecting the Messiah that Torah tells will come to save them from their sins.
and Yhvh said something about 'natural branches' being cut out, so that 'unnatural branches' could be grafted in....
so,
yes,
you may have a kind of a point there, yes. (looks like partial , not full, understanding, but that's a start)
 
follower said:
hmmmm....... i seem to remember something about Yhvh being the Creator. and Yhvh planning not just Creation, but salvation for the Jews and for the gentiles (all in His Word).
and Yhvh said salvation came through the Jews. (no worries 'bout what He meant at this point, just He said it).
and Yhvh said something about Jews rejecting the Messiah that Torah tells will come to save them from their sins.
and Yhvh said something about 'natural branches' being cut out, so that 'unnatural branches' could be grafted in....
so,
yes,
you may have a kind of a point there, yes. (looks like partial , not full, understanding, but that's a start)
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So, all the Gentiles that Paul said did not have to become circumcised and follow dietary restrictions were never Christians, as he told them they were?
 
Or........ are you working toward an understanding of "the Israel of God", those of faith, rather than bloodline?
 
thank you..... partial understanding here..... a step at a time..... as able will go back over from the start, Yhvh willing.

question: i don't remember paul calling the ecclesia christians. did paul call someone "christian" ?

then, yes, at least "faith" not bloodline. later we see that both are usually distinct (not always), and maybe important in some way(s).
 
"And it came about that for an entire year they met with the church, and taught considerable numbers; and the disciples were first called Christians at Antioch." (Acts 11:23-26).
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After having gone to Tarsus to get the new convert Saul, only recently a persecutor of the church himself, Barnabas returned with Saul and they worked with the church at Antioch for a year. (What an encouragement he must have been to Saul, for most believers were still afraid of him.) Later, Barnabas and Saul (soon to be known as Paul) traveled through Asia Minor together establishing many churches in many different cities. Antioch would become their "headquarters" from where they would launch their missions and return after completing them.

It was during this year in which Barnabas and Saul are at Antioch that the disciples were first called "Christians". The disciples were followers of Christ. A disciple of Jesus was most likely happy to wear His name, since we have the telling of all those who said, "I am of Apollos", and "I am of Peter" and, "I am of Paul", etc... or whoever they claimed to be listening to. Later, Peter tells disciples to "in that name (that seems to be, in the name "Christian") let him glorify God." (1 Peter 4:16).

Probably somewhere in that year that the name,"Christian", was pretty commonly spoken, I imagine Paul used it a time or two to offset the negative way it began.

But, then I wasn't there.
 
what if Jesus meant exactly what He said and Nicodemus understood but most Christians have not and cannot not and will not - twinc
 
twinc said:
what if Jesus meant exactly what He said and Nicodemus understood but most Christians have not and cannot not and will not - twinc
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Yeshua did mean exactly what He said - He only spoke what the Father Abba Yhvh told Him to speak (never anything on His own - a totally foreign concept to americans, btw).
Nicodemus didn't understand - Yeshua pointed that out.
Most Christians(world-wide) don't get it and can't grasp it either; partly perhaps because it's been such a long time and so much is so far removed from what Yeshua was talking about, in every context, and partly(perhaps) because so many have willingly or not changed the Word or the Message to "man's way of thinking" instead of Yhvh's .
 
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