Born Again?

[JohnDB]

OK...so who here has heard this expression?
I would bet just about everyone.

And unfortunately it has become a tradition these days Because it is simply a mis-translation of what was said and intended. John 3:3 (NIV)

Jews and theological debates go hand in hand like "drunk and disorderly".
Christians have debated theology the second Jesus left this earth. The early church leaders were all over the place with their theology...and Paul, Peter, John, James and etc were all battling theological battles non-stop since their Rabbi ascended.

BUT

They had some common ground to work from.
Certain groupings had been assigned to some of their forefathers.
Certain ones were labled as "Born from Above"....meaning that God had given these men to Israel for specific functions...God had blessed the Israelites with these people to perform particular tasks for God. Sampson, Moses, Samuel, Jeremiah, Jacob, David, Solomon and etc.
These men were born and became leaders. Their births were foretold...pre-ordained tasks assigned to them to rescue God's chosen people.

Gennethe Anothen. are the greek words used to describe "born again/born from above"..and you will have to forgive my lack of little dots to go over particular vowels here...the platform doesn't allow for such things or...I don't know how to work the platform well enough to make it appear.


So...
When read in context of what Jesus is saying...as well as Nicodemus...Nicodemus is saying that he doesn't feel up to the task...Jesus is saying that he is. Nicodemus says that he needs a whole life "do over" and a bunch of other things. (remember he isn't just flattering Jesus with his words in Verse 2)

So...when Jesus reiterates his point again in verse 7...its over for Nicodemus. He and Joseph are the two voices of reason against handing Jesus over to the Romans...

But...its time for some traditions to end.
Some things need to be made very clear.
Your choices about "what to do about Jesus" are more important than you will ever think.

 

[Jim Parker]

The early church leaders were all over the place with their theology...and Paul, Peter, John, James and etc were all battling theological battles non-stop since their Rabbi ascended.

I see an enormous amount of agreement and absolutely no battles. (Except when Peter was cowed by the Judaizers in Antioch and Paul called him on it but they agreed at the Jerusalem council.)

Certain ones were labled as "Born from Above"....meaning that God had given these men to Israel for specific functions...God had blessed the Israelites with these people to perform particular tasks for God. Sampson, Moses, Samuel, Jeremiah, Jacob, David, Solomon and etc.
These men were born and became leaders. Their births were foretold...pre-ordained tasks assigned to them to rescue God's chosen people.

The context of the only usage of the words "born from above" is Jesus' conversation with Nicodemus. It has nothing to do with people whose births were foretold doing preordained tasks. It's about what is necessary to enter the Kingdom of God.
The passage in which these words are found is Jhn 3:3-8 (NET)
Jesus replied, "I tell you the solemn truth, unless a person is born from above, he cannot see the kingdom of God."
Nicodemus said to him, "How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter his mother's womb and be born a second time, can he?"
Jesus answered, "I tell you the solemn truth, unless a person is born of water and spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
What is born of the flesh is flesh, and what is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not be amazed that I said to you, 'You must all be born from above.' The wind blows wherever it will, and you hear the sound it makes, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit."
Nicodemus' statement that a man cannot enter his mother's womb and be born a second time indicates that he understood Jesus to be saying that one must be born "again" in order to enter the kingdom of God. Accordingly, most English translations render it "born again" or "born anew."

When read in context of what Jesus is saying...as well as Nicodemus...Nicodemus is saying that he doesn't feel up to the task...Jesus is saying that he is. Nicodemus says that he needs a whole life "do over" and a bunch of other things.

Actually, it is Jesus who is telling Nicodemus that he needs a "do over" to enter the kingdom of heaven. He needs to be born again of water and of Spirit to enter.

Your choices about "what to do about Jesus" are more important than you will ever think.

Amen and amen.

iakov the fool

 

[JohnDB]

I see an enormous amount of agreement and absolutely no battles. (Except when Peter was cowed by the Judaizers in Antioch and Paul called him on it but they agreed at the Jerusalem council.)

The Apostles one disagreement theologically amongst themselves made scripture. It was their only theological disagreement and they quickly reconciles...With Peter capitulating.
There were of course other disagreements but they were not on theology.
Now after James, Peter, and Paul were martyred the replacing leaders and their writings show huge theological disagreements. Millennial reign coming to mind here as one point of huge contention.

The context of the only usage of the words "born from above" is Jesus' conversation with Nicodemus. It has nothing to do with people whose births were foretold doing preordained tasks. It's about what is necessary to enter the Kingdom of God.
The passage in which these words are found is Jhn 3:3-8 (NET)
Jesus replied, "I tell you the solemn truth, unless a person is born from above, he cannot see the kingdom of God."
Nicodemus said to him, "How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter his mother's womb and be born a second time, can he?"
Jesus answered, "I tell you the solemn truth, unless a person is born of water and spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
What is born of the flesh is flesh, and what is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not be amazed that I said to you, 'You must all be born from above.' The wind blows wherever it will, and you hear the sound it makes, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit."
Nicodemus' statement that a man cannot enter his mother's womb and be born a second time indicates that he understood Jesus to be saying that one must be born "again" in order to enter the kingdom of God. Accordingly, most English translations render it "born again" or "born anew."

Actually, it is Jesus who is telling Nicodemus that he needs a "do over" to enter the kingdom of heaven. He needs to be born again of water and of Spirit to enter.

Amen and amen.

iakov the fool

OK...I understand that you embrace the traditional English translation as inspired by Wycliffe.
But consider this.
All theological terms that are crucial and key to understanding what God desires of mankind are repeated in scripture...two to three times a story will be told just to make sure that its significance is assured.

Now in the case of "Born Again" or "Born Anew" it is actually a theological promotion rather than an accurate translation of the Greek manuscripts. In every case except for the passages in John Annothen is translated "from above".

Also another point that comes to mind is that no where in the Bible, Talmudic writings, Midrash writings, or Sifre writings does this principle of "Born Again" or Born Anew exist...
"Born from Above" however does...with tons of supporting references and nuances to make it an expositional focus.

One other little point is that when translating from Greek/Hebrew/Latin into English...English is the poorest receptor language in extant. So the work (however exceptional) is often a "best guess" type situation. And such is the case with this situation.
And it makes a solid case for many for Predestination and fore-ordination...but I still doubt those...I do believe in fore-knowleg and God nudging just the right people in the right place in time to do what they would ordinarily do.

 

[Malachi]

Not sure exactly what you are trying to convey. If you are suggesting that the New Birth is not a necessity, then that is misdirection and misinterpretation. According to Christ, it is an ABSOLUTE NECESSITY.

 

[JohnDB]

Not sure exactly what you are trying to convey. If you are suggesting that the New Birth is not a necessity, then that is misdirection and misinterpretation. According to Christ, it is an ABSOLUTE NECESSITY.

Yes, that it has become a traditional misinterpreted portion of the scriptures.

Jesus was referring to something that the Jews discussed regularly...
Nicodemus was being sarcastic. People don't usually think that the Bible would contain such communication as that...but it does.

 

[Jim Parker]

Now after James, Peter, and Paul were martyred the replacing leaders and their writings show huge theological disagreements.

Yes, there were huge differences of opinion put forward by Docetists who said Jesus was a phantasm and only appeared to suffer, the Arians who said that Jesus was less than the Father and that there was a time when Jesus was not, and the Nestorians, and the Appollenarians, the Modalists, the Ebionites, etc. Their opinions were all rejected as heresy because they did not conform to scripture or the teaching of the apostles.

Now in the case of "Born Again" or "Born Anew" it is actually a theological promotion rather than an accurate translation of the Greek manuscripts. In every case except for the passages in John Annothen is translated "from above".

Born "again" is the way that Nicodemus understood it and the way that Paul explains it when teaching about baptism. (Ro 6:3-4) He says that we die with Christ and are raised again to new life. A new life is being born again.
That is also what the early church taught.

Justin Martyr (100 – 165 AD) The First Apology, Chapter LXI, “Christian Baptism”
I will also relate the manner in which we dedicated ourselves to God when we had been made new through Christ; lest, if we omit this, we seem to be unfair in the explanation we are making. As many as are persuaded and believe that what we teach and say is true, and undertake to be able to live accordingly, are instructed to pray and to entreat God with fasting, for the remission of their sins that are past, we praying and fasting with them. Then they are brought by us where there is water, and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated. For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water. For Christ also said, “Except ye be born again, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.”Now, that it is impossible for those who have once been born to enter into their mothers’ wombs, is manifest to all. And how those who have sinned and repent shall escape their sins, is declared by Esaias the prophet, as I wrote above; he thus speaks: “Wash you, make you clean;...”

And for this [rite] we have learned from the apostles this reason. Since at our birth we were born without our own knowledge or choice, by our parents coming together, and were brought up in bad habits and wicked training; in order that we may not remain the children of necessity and of ignorance, but may become the children of choice and knowledge, and may obtain in the water the remission of sins formerly committed, there is pronounced over him who chooses to be born again, and has repented of his sins, the name of God the Father and Lord of the universe; ...

iakov the fool

 

[Malachi]

Yes, that it has become a traditional misinterpreted portion of the scriptures.

Jesus was referring to something that the Jews discussed regularly...
Nicodemus was being sarcastic. People don't usually think that the Bible would contain such communication as that...but it does.

[edited] There is a great deal more about the New Birth than just in John chapter 3. Indeed, without the New Birth, a sinner remains dead in his trespasses and sins, and cannot be a child of God.

 

[JohnDB]

[edited] There is a great deal more about the New Birth than just in John chapter 3. Indeed, without the New Birth, a sinner remains dead in his trespasses and sins, and cannot be a child of God.

The Romans 6:4 passage is iffy at best as to coordinating with John 3:3,7.
And Paul doesn't use the same Greek term "annothen". Mostly because the whole "born from above" term would be lost on the Romans anyway.
Same with the expression Sons of God.

But this expression does exist in Jewish theologies... Kinda often too.

It's one of those subjects that gets "sidesteped" alot by those "in the know".

Mostly because of the contention...but that is the reason in the margins of most modern translations the note is " born from above" concerning these verses.