Born Again?

[GodsGrace]

It's not that I'm refusing to read them, but that they are lengthy and complex. I tried skimming them but there's an awful lot there that just doesn't seem relevant to the spiritual principle of becoming a new creature in Christ (i.e. being born again).

Would you mind rephrasing this thing about the mistranslation of being born again?



Did you see the examples I listed of the teachings of Jesus? Scorning the values of this world and instead seeking to live on less, seeking to become a servant rather than great, seeking to reject the titles of flattery enjoyed by the world, seeking to reject materialism, and seeking to lose our lives; that's hardly a great marketing slogan and yet the ideal of being born again is exactly what would happen if one were to genuinely apply these teachings.

You become a new person living by a completely new set of values.

I understand that much of the church world today has become full of convenient cliches like being born again, spirit filled, washed in the blood, etc but those concepts are still valid even if they are abused by a luke warm church.

Hi JD,
What JohnDB is saying is that there really is no such thing as being born again.

I'm writing to you because I've been thinking about this for over a year now (yes, much longer) and I've come to this conclusion but not for the same reasons.

JohnDB is very knowledgeable in matters Hebrew/Jewish...he's talking about what being born from above meant in the time that Jesus spoke to Nicodemus. There were some persons at that time, and before, that were said to be "born from above". They were prophets that were awaited and that spoke for God. They were born from above...NOT the persons who believed in Jesus.

He'll correct me if I've stated it incorrectly. But in a nutshell, I'd say that's it. He also posted all the info that goes along with this which was pretty lengthy and which is probably why he hesitates to go over it all again. It's in the O.P.....that's all you'd have to read.

If the N.T. is read carefully, we'd find that Jesus never spoke of being born again except that one time. He did mention salvation a few times, but what Jesus spoke mainly about was how to belong to the Kingdom of God here and now and then carry it through to after death judgement.

I think that the phrase being born again has become a cliche' to signify that we are disciples of Christ and I also believe that we've lost all meaning attached to those words (even if used in the current vernacular).

 

[GodsGrace]

So some of God's words may not pertain to you...but they were not idle.
Timothy 3:16
All scripture is God breathed suitable for....

Right.
What is not suitable to me...is not God's law for me.

And Please read what I wrote to John Darling...
I'm not sure I explain it correctly....

 

[GodsGrace]

This goes hand in hand with the central theme for John's Gospel...
Also Jesus' beatitude "Blessed are the pure in heart for they shall see God"

Because if you will allow me to rephrase what Jesus said,
"No one can really see who I really


am unless they are born from above. You, Nicodemus can see me because of your following the spirit and letter of the Law and the Holy Spirit enabling you to"

YES.
This is how I understand it.
We cannot see God unless we have God's spirit....

 

[JohnDB]

Right.
What is not suitable to me...is not God's law for me.

And Please read what I wrote to John Darling...
I'm not sure I explain it correctly....

But it was Law for someone

 

[JohnDB]

Right.
What is not suitable to me...is not God's law for me.

And Please read what I wrote to John Darling...
I'm not sure I explain it correctly....

You did just fine. Better than I did...say I'm working on a new lengthy post on another topic soon...you wouldn't want to be a paraphrase for me?

 

[GodsGrace]

john darling

JD, I'm posting this for you because I think it's important:
Here's what JohnDB wrote and which you should read:

part 1 of 2 (from post no. 11)

Nicodemus came during the evening hours. Which actually is Social Hour in Israel. These guys stay up late! I found it baffling myself as a normal "early riser". When the party boat on the Sea of Gallilee was playing Bon Jovi and other '80's tunes past 11pm it was a tad annoying. Hey, I like Ozzy too...but not at that time of night when all I want to do is sleep. The disco ball was a bit much imho but hey...its their place not mine.

Now Nicodemus came recognizing Jesus' miracles and teaching as being legitimate. Thats in direct defiance of most of the Pharisees and Sadducees and "experts in the Law" aka Grammitons.

Now according to
Moses ben Maimon commonly known as Maimonides there were two different groups of "heroes". And as Israel was known for being a caste based society it should be of special notice. Maimonides came from the 1100's AD...not exactly from that day and time of the action of the Gospel...and he was most definitely Jewish practicing Judaism. He wasn't exactly wrong...but trying to diffuse the huge impact that Christianity had upon the Jewish world. So...relating the truth without being more precise was definitely in his best interests. (He was considered a Polymath or Renaissance Man. Now Maimonides refers to two different groups of "heroes".

The Hassid or Saint
The Hakham or Sage...

Now this is a close approximation of what has been suggested of Anthropologists. The Jews were a meticulous bunch. Everyone and everything had to be categorized. Even the Heroes of Old.
Sometimes God, having pity upon Israel's misery or in keeping with Promises that God had made to Israel, sent different heroes to perform very specific tasks.
Now when someone was a great teacher they were a Hakham...or wise person that everyone listened to...we would generally refer to this person roughly as a Sage. It was more than that as this person could also be an advisor to the King...as in what Joseph did with Pharaoh. Or as in a Judge as described in the book of Judges. Which was half prophet and half leader. Which really isn't exactly what a "Judge" was but more in line with what we think of as a Judge.
Then there are the Hassid or Saint. These guys were men of Action...like Moses or Sampson or Jacob or Isaac or many others I could list here. One of the prerequisites was that they were not just Called but Chosen and that these people were prophesied about before they were born. These "Sons of God" were considered to be very holy and righteous men. Samuel could be sarcastic at times...but like often is the case no one thinks of a "Hero" as being sarcastic when he should be respectful. And "of course the Bible contains no such sarcasm or dry wit being performed by the Heroes".

 

[GodsGrace]

You did just fine. Better than I did...say I'm working on a new lengthy post on another topic soon...you wouldn't want to be a paraphrase for me?

You're very smart John.
I doubt you need me!
But I'm always available to help out...

 

[GodsGrace]

john darling

part 2 of 2


No one even considers the fact that Nicodemus, who recognized Jesus as being sent by God, would be sarcastic to a bona fide messenger of God. And likely he wouldn't be.

But that doesn't mean that Jesus wouldn't be a bit incredulous at Nicodemus' answer back to him.

As the scripture above in for_his_glory 's post shows the conversation...
Lets assume for just a moment that Tyndale nor Erasmus were not correct. And that Jerome was busy pontificating upon the less known double entendre of what Jesus said instead of the main thing people would understand from "born from above" or Born Anew.

What could the Jesus who spoke in parables so that the Pharisees deliberately would not understand what he was saying actually saying? And what could Nicodemus' reply actually mean?

Not that I actually am trying to promote a notion of Calvinism of Election...but a notion of Predestination of having foreknowledge from a God who knows the end of things as well as He knows the Beginning of all things.
The very notion that Nicodemus understood really well of being not just Called but Chosen by God to be a Hassid/Saint and not just a Hakham/Sage or knowledgeable person. Someone who was "Bene Elohim" and was deliberately born of God to perform a very specific task for All of Israel.

Jesus said, "No one can see the Kingdom of God unless he is a Bene Elohim/Born Anew/Born as a messenger with a task to benefit ALL OF ISRAEL...like Moses, Isaac, or Sampson.

As a member of the Sanhidrin, a religious leader, and Rabbi/teacher of the Masses this would seem like empty flattery that Nicodemus did not understand how he could possibly satisfy...even with the double entendre of meaning that Nicodemus would understand half of. (The repenting and becoming a "Child of Abraham" once again. because he was a Rabbi...repenting of a mispent life was not on his agenda...nor did he need to. He was the interpreter of the Law and followed it closely)

This prompted the question that Nicodemus had of how he could possibly do his whole life over again at this point in the game. He would need to. So that his birth could be foretold by prophets, and all of Israel could look forward to his life changing the lives of everyone in Israel.
Now the term Jesus used was a backhanded way of saying Bene Elohim but not THE Son of God which was reserved for the Messiah...and Jesus wanted to make that distinction clear. Jesus knew exactly who he was...and was busy explaining to Nicodemus, who stopped by to make a friend of Jesus, who he truly was.

The answer petrified Nicodemus right down to his core more so than an entire legion of Roman soldiers coming to arrest him ever could. "There's no way possible" comes to mind when being told something like this. I'm sure this was Nicodemus' first thought. One that kept repeating itself through his mind.

While Jesus explains the same lesson he explained about the Sower and the different soils...or in the Old Testament about the Potter and the Clay. The better the quality of the soil the better the harvest or the better the quality of the clay the better the quality of the finished vessel.
That Nicodemus had been born of water and Spirit...

Water...its a backhanded, metaphoric reference to Law.
Moses started this with the sprinkling of the People with the water to cleanse them when he brought with him the "contract" of the first written words of God to the Children of Israel.

Lets look at some expressions...
Genesis
....And the Spirit of God was Hovering/Shaking/Controlling over the face of the "waters" is how scriptures say that God was choosing which laws of physics would rule the Universe.

1Peter:
The Heavens existed and the Earth was formed out of water and by water....(anything God says simply is the Law...even if you argue with it)

Wash her with the water of the Word...
More could be said but suffice it to say that the chapter divisions put into scriptures around the time people were getting access to them was deliberately done to obfuscate the reason why Jesus decided to walk upon the Tehovm/Sea/Abyss of Gallilee.

The natural chapter breaks otherwise coming from the sections of scriptures would indicate a very serious problem with the current state of things with the Holy Roman Empire's church. Nevermind the truth...we are the "good guys".

Soooo

Long and dry reading....but it does propose a more complete understanding of what was said and why it was said than anything else listed above.

and that if you happen to be reading this...you have been Called...and Chosen to do something.

 

[john darling]

Paul addresses the subject of being a new creation in Christ... Jesus does not.

If Paul teaches something different to what Jesus taught, he is worthless. Galatians 1:8. Jesus is the savior. Jesus is the cornerstone. Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life.

The subject of this thread is about what Jesus really did say and why.

He told Nico we must be born again to be a part of the Kingdom of God. This is why Nico asked, "Can a man enter into the womb a second time"? He was confused about what Jesus was saying. When Jesus asked, "are you a teacher of the law and yet you don't understand something like this" he was not complimenting Nico. He was noting the uselessness of all of Nico's supposed education. He needed to dump all that previous education and learn something completely new.

Here's an example. I mentioned earlier Jesus' teaching against using special titles to exalt one another. Matthew 23: 6-12. In the worldly culture we have now children are taught from a young age to use special titles for certain individuals. Dad and Mom for their parents. Mr and Ms for their teachers. Sir for their bosses. Teacher and Doctor for the professionals they come across. It is taught as a part of respectful society. You use the titles to show respect, and if you do not use the special titles it means you do not have respect.

It makes sense that someone raised in this kind of culture would see it as strange, rude, and even hateful to not use these special titles. They have been taught to think this way.

Now imagine a society in which children are taught that respect does not come from special titles. They are taught not to use flattery and they are taught not to be afraid of people who demand these special titles for themselves. To these people it would seem strange for some person to suddenly come in saying, "You should call me master as my rightful title and as evidence that you respect me"! (Note: Mr. is a shortened form of master).

They are two different value systems. One is the system in which we currently live. The other is a system which Jesus referred to as the Kingdom of Heaven. Pretty much every human on the planet is born into the worldly system where we rely on special titles to flatter one another. Switching over to the other system would naturally feel strange and a little fearful, but that is what being born again means; we switch systems. We learn to live by a new set of values.

Here's another example: Imagine a culture in which children are taught that the value of their lives is in how much money they can make (e.g. you need to earn a living). They are taught that their survival depends on demanding payment from others for goods and services rendered. The more education/skills they acquire, the more likely they are to get better pay and the more likely they are to live a comfortable life.

To these people, it would sound verrry strange to hear a message of working for love instead of demanding payment. They've been taught all their lives that payment is the essence of survival. Working for love may sound nice to these people, but deep down they know that in the real world we must demand payment for our work in order to survive.

Now imagine the opposite: a society where children are taught from birth that the essence of survival is dependence on their creator; that they are created to love their creator and to love God; that working for the benefit of their fellow man is the essence of what makes a good life. Integrity, sincerity, justice, and sharing are the fundamentals of what they learn in school (while reading, writing, and arithmetic would be secondary to these core values). To these people it would seem very strange if someone came along saying, "You can't survive unless you demand payment".

They are two opposite systems. Switching from one to the other would require a huge leap of faith and a fundamental change in perspective. That is what being born again means from the perspective of the teachings of Jesus.

 

[john darling]

No one even considers the fact that Nicodemus, who recognized Jesus as being sent by God, would be sarcastic to a bona fide messenger of God. And likely he wouldn't be.

Sure. I think he was genuinely confused.

But that doesn't mean that Jesus wouldn't be a bit incredulous at Nicodemus' answer back to him.

I think it was more like a reprimand. Nico had a lot of responsibility. He was a teacher. That was a big deal in those days. Jesus knew that he had succumed to the usual religious dogma of the time. Jesus was talking about the Kingdom of Heaven and Nico was still thinking about the Kingdom of the Jews. One is spiritual and the other had become physical (which is why he asked, "can a man enter into the womb a second time"?) He was a spiritual leader who was missing the bigger picture. There is much mischief in a leader who is himself confused and Jesus was trying to correct that confusion, but it came with a price. Nico had to drop all his religious learning, his position of respect among the people, and his political clout; he had to forsake it all in order to be able to see the Kingdom that Jesus was talking about. He had to be born again.

What could the Jesus who spoke in parables so that the Pharisees deliberately would not understand what he was saying actually saying? And what could Nicodemus' reply actually mean?

I agree that Jesus spoke in parable to hide the truth, but that does not mean he wanted people to be blind to the truth. It's a test of sincerity. Insincere people would only hear a crazy man, or a pleasant story. Sincere people would hear a deeper truth behind the story. Nico's reply asking if a man should enter the womb again showed that he was confused about what being born again meant.

The very notion that Nicodemus understood really well of being not just Called but Chosen by God to be a Hassid/Saint and not just a Hakham/Sage or knowledgeable person. Someone who was "Bene Elohim" and was deliberately born of God to perform a very specific task for All of Israel.

Being called and being chosen is an area of much confusion in Christianity today. This is where the big picture comes in handy. In Matthew 22: 14 Jesus says many are called but few are chosen. In Matthew 7:21 he says, "Many will call me Lord, but only those who obey my father will enter the Kingdom". In 1 Timothy 4:2 Paul says that God wants everyone to be saved. God offers his salvation to everyone, but only some people will choose to obey. This is like saying, "You've been selected to participate in the Price is Right!" but you can only be considered for selection if you submit an application first. In other words, God chooses those who choose him and since God is able to exist outside of time/space/matter he knows who will choose him and who will not from a perspective which is not limited by past, present, and future as we are. It is not that God chooses irrespective of our free will but rather he knows what choices we will make before we do.

Long and dry reading....but it does propose a more complete understanding of what was said and why it was said than anything else listed above.

Heh, dry reading about water. I see what you did there.

 

[JohnDB]

If Paul teaches something different to what Jesus taught, he is worthless. Galatians 1:8. Jesus is the savior. Jesus is the cornerstone. Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life.



He told Nico we must be born again to be a part of the Kingdom of God. This is why Nico asked, "Can a man enter into the womb a second time"? He was confused about what Jesus was saying. When Jesus asked, "are you a teacher of the law and yet you don't understand something like this" he was not complimenting Nico. He was noting the uselessness of all of Nico's supposed education. He needed to dump all that previous education and learn something completely new.

Here's an example. I mentioned earlier Jesus' teaching against using special titles to exalt one another. Matthew 23: 6-12. In the worldly culture we have now children are taught from a young age to use special titles for certain individuals. Dad and Mom for their parents. Mr and Ms for their teachers. Sir for their bosses. Teacher and Doctor for the professionals they come across. It is taught as a part of respectful society. You use the titles to show respect, and if you do not use the special titles it means you do not have respect.

It makes sense that someone raised in this kind of culture would see it as strange, rude, and even hateful to not use these special titles. They have been taught to think this way.

Now imagine a society in which children are taught that respect does not come from special titles. They are taught not to use flattery and they are taught not to be afraid of people who demand these special titles for themselves. To these people it would seem strange for some person to suddenly come in saying, "You should call me master as my rightful title and as evidence that you respect me"! (Note: Mr. is a shortened form of master).

They are two different value systems. One is the system in which we currently live. The other is a system which Jesus referred to as the Kingdom of Heaven. Pretty much every human on the planet is born into the worldly system where we rely on special titles to flatter one another. Switching over to the other system would naturally feel strange and a little fearful, but that is what being born again means; we switch systems. We learn to live by a new set of values.

Here's another example: Imagine a culture in which children are taught that the value of their lives is in how much money they can make (e.g. you need to earn a living). They are taught that their survival depends on demanding payment from others for goods and services rendered. The more education/skills they acquire, the more likely they are to get better pay and the more likely they are to live a comfortable life.

To these people, it would sound verrry strange to hear a message of working for love instead of demanding payment. They've been taught all their lives that payment is the essence of survival. Working for love may sound nice to these people, but deep down they know that in the real world we must demand payment for our work in order to survive.

Now imagine the opposite: a society where children are taught from birth that the essence of survival is dependence on their creator; that they are created to love their creator and to love God; that working for the benefit of their fellow man is the essence of what makes a good life. Integrity, sincerity, justice, and sharing are the fundamentals of what they learn in school (while reading, writing, and arithmetic would be secondary to these core values). To these people it would seem very strange if someone came along saying, "You can't survive unless you demand payment".

They are two opposite systems. Switching from one to the other would require a huge leap of faith and a fundamental change in perspective. That is what being born again means from the perspective of the teachings of Jesus.

How on Earth does what you replied have to do with anything I stated?

I think that you need to look again at what I wrote and try again.

 

[JohnDB]

Sure. I think he was genuinely confused.



I think it was more like a reprimand. Nico had a lot of responsibility. He was a teacher. That was a big deal in those days. Jesus knew that he had succumed to the usual religious dogma of the time. Jesus was talking about the Kingdom of Heaven and Nico was still thinking about the Kingdom of the Jews. One is spiritual and the other had become physical (which is why he asked, "can a man enter into the womb a second time"?) He was a spiritual leader who was missing the bigger picture. There is much mischief in a leader who is himself confused and Jesus was trying to correct that confusion, but it came with a price. Nico had to drop all his religious learning, his position of respect among the people, and his political clout; he had to forsake it all in order to be able to see the Kingdom that Jesus was talking about. He had to be born again.



I agree that Jesus spoke in parable to hide the truth, but that does not mean he wanted people to be blind to the truth. It's a test of sincerity. Insincere people would only hear a crazy man, or a pleasant story. Sincere people would hear a deeper truth behind the story. Nico's reply asking if a man should enter the womb again showed that he was confused about what being born again meant.



Being called and being chosen is an area of much confusion in Christianity today. This is where the big picture comes in handy. In Matthew 22: 14 Jesus says many are called but few are chosen. In Matthew 7:21 he says, "Many will call me Lord, but only those who obey my father will enter the Kingdom". In 1 Timothy 4:2 Paul says that God wants everyone to be saved. God offers his salvation to everyone, but only some people will choose to obey. This is like saying, "You've been selected to participate in the Price is Right!" but you can only be considered for selection if you submit an application first. In other words, God chooses those who choose him and since God is able to exist outside of time/space/matter he knows who will choose him and who will not from a perspective which is not limited by past, present, and future as we are. It is not that God chooses irrespective of our free will but rather he knows what choices we will make before we do.



Heh, dry reading about water. I see what you did there.

Again you absolutely missed on what she was quoting me as saying.
Try again and this time try to be relevant to the discussion at hand.

 

[john darling]

How on Earth does what you replied have to do with anything I stated?

I think that you need to look again at what I wrote and try again.

I'm offering my understanding of what being born again means. What do you think about my interpretation? What do you think about the examples I listed?

 

[JohnDB]

I'm offering my understanding of what being born again means. What do you think about my interpretation? What do you think about the examples I listed?

We have already stated what the passage means to us and why. You still have yet to demonstrate that you understand a thing we have said.

 

[john darling]

What I have proposed in the posts that you are refusing to read is that "Born Again" is a mistranslation of the scriptures...and has been because of Origen.

I'm saying it's not a mistranslation. What do you think of the reasons I gave for that conclusion?

 

[JohnDB]

I'm saying it's not a mistranslation. What do you think of the reasons I gave for that conclusion?

That they go along with the same thing that has been promoted for over 500 years and has been not reflecting what was intended to be understood by John in this passage.

You make Nicodemus a liar and not a fan of Jesus offering up cheap and shallow flattery and an imbecile.
He was none of those things.
You don't get to be a part of the Sanhidrin by being an idiot.

 

[john darling]

You don't get to be a part of the Sanhidrin by being an idiot.

I'm not saying he was an idiot. I'm saying he was confused. He asked Jesus how a man could enter into the womb again. Clearly he did not think Jesus was trying to compliment him. He did not understand what Jesus meant by being born again.

So Jesus clarified by saying we are born once of water (i.e. physical birth, not baptism). This was to clarify Nico's confusion about climbing back into the womb. Then we are born again by spirit, namely the Holy Spirit. Being born again is not a physical thing like trying to enter the womb again, but rather a spiritual concept which will result in a radically different life style. Peter confirms this when he says, "we are born again by the word of God". 1 Peter 1:23. The word of God is Jesus. John 1:1-3 and Revelation 19:13.
Jesus said the words he speaks are his spirit. John 6:63. He says the purpose of the Holy Spirit will be to encourage us to follow his teachings. John 14:26.

We become born again (or new in Christ) when we practice his teachings. Have a look at the sermon on the mount from Matthew 5, 6, and 7. It's the single longest recorded sermon from Jesus in which he gives much instruction to his followers about how they should behave as his followers. At the end of the sermon he finishes with a parable about a wise and foolish man. The wise man hears his sayings and practices them. As a result he is saved from the flood. The foolish man hears the sayings, but does not practice them. As a result he is lost in the flood. Both men heard the teachings, but only the wise man obeyed them.

If you read those teachings like a child (Matthew 18:3), believing Jesus meant what he said and with the expectation that you will practice those teachings your life will become radically different. It will be as though you are a new person living by completely different values. When the disciples in Acts practiced the teachings of Jesus, the people referred to them as "those who have turned the world upside down". Acts 17:6.

When Paul wrote of his own experience he boasted about being a pharisee of the pharisees, blameless in the law, zealous in his duties, of the stock of Benjamin etc, and then finished it off by saying it was all dung in comparison to what Jesus offered. Philippians 3:3-7.

This is what Nico missed. It was precisely because of his extensive education and high position that he missed it. When Jesus questioned him about being a teacher of Israel, he was making the point that all his learning hadn't done him any good in discerning the spiritual lesson behind Jesus' words, so why keep holding on to it?

 

[JohnDB]

I'm not saying he was an idiot. I'm saying he was confused. He asked Jesus how a man could enter into the womb again. Clearly he did not think Jesus was trying to compliment him. He did not understand what Jesus meant by being born again.

So Jesus clarified by saying we are born once of water (i.e. physical birth, not baptism). This was to clarify Nico's confusion about climbing back into the womb. Then we are born again by spirit, namely the Holy Spirit. Being born again is not a physical thing like trying to enter the womb again, but rather a spiritual concept which will result in a radically different life style. Peter confirms this when he says, "we are born again by the word of God". 1 Peter 1:23. The word of God is Jesus. John 1:1-3 and Revelation 19:13.
Jesus said the words he speaks are his spirit. John 6:63. He says the purpose of the Holy Spirit will be to encourage us to follow his teachings. John 14:26.

We become born again (or new in Christ) when we practice his teachings. Have a look at the sermon on the mount from Matthew 5, 6, and 7. It's the single longest recorded sermon from Jesus in which he gives much instruction to his followers about how they should behave as his followers. At the end of the sermon he finishes with a parable about a wise and foolish man. The wise man hears his sayings and practices them. As a result he is saved from the flood. The foolish man hears the sayings, but does not practice them. As a result he is lost in the flood. Both men heard the teachings, but only the wise man obeyed them.

If you read those teachings like a child (Matthew 18:3), believing Jesus meant what he said and with the expectation that you will practice those teachings your life will become radically different. It will be as though you are a new person living by completely different values. When the disciples in Acts practiced the teachings of Jesus, the people referred to them as "those who have turned the world upside down". Acts 17:6.

When Paul wrote of his own experience he boasted about being a pharisee of the pharisees, blameless in the law, zealous in his duties, of the stock of Benjamin etc, and then finished it off by saying it was all dung in comparison to what Jesus offered. Philippians 3:3-7.

This is what Nico missed. It was precisely because of his extensive education and high position that he missed it. When Jesus questioned him about being a teacher of Israel, he was making the point that all his learning hadn't done him any good in discerning the spiritual lesson behind Jesus' words, so why keep holding on to it?

And all of this I refuted precisely with actual Aramaic translation and anthropological evidence and honest literary review which you still have yet to acknowledge or read.

 

[john darling]

And all of this I refuted precisely with actual Aramaic translation and anthropological evidence and honest literary review which you still have yet to acknowledge or read.

You're talking about ancient Aramaic translations. I'm talking about the teachings of Jesus. If your suggestion is that I should be talking about the former rather than the latter then is it really surprising that I'd not be interested in reading your lengthy posts?

If you want to make it about Jesus then I'm happy to read your posts.

 

[JohnDB]

You're talking about ancient Aramaic translations. I'm talking about the teachings of Jesus. If your suggestion is that I should be talking about the former rather than the latter then is it really surprising that I'd not be interested in reading your lengthy posts?

If you want to make it about Jesus then I'm happy to read your posts.

Again,
This thread is about what Jesus actually said and intended which has taken many men thousands of hours of research to discover which I related through hundreds of hours of research on my own which you dismiss and misrepresent.

Quit reading your imagination and read what is actually being discussed. We have linear conversations on this forum...something you have yet to have. We are not an audience for your benefit of stroking your ego. We are here to intelligently discuss the scriptures that we hold most dear. If you can't do that then stop.