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buying and selling

digging

digging

Member
Good evening,

I've been wanting to share a new perspective with all of you on a new view I have regarding the meaning of the 'buying and selling' by everyone who has the mark of the beast.

Revelation 3:18 NAS
I advise you to buy from Me gold refined by fire so that you may become rich, and white garments so that you may clothe yourself, and that the shame of your nakedness will not be revealed ; and eye salve to anoint your eyes so that you may see.

Revelation 13:17 NAS
and he provides that no one will be able to buy or to sell, except the one who has the mark, either the name of the beast or the number of his name.

How are we to understand what Jesus is saying in Rev 3:18? Is he selling real gold? Is he selling clothing and selling eye salve? Are we to literally buy these things from him?

Rather isn't he illustrating the interaction between us and Jesus? When we exercise faith we are buying the gold he is selling. So it would seem in Rev that the buying and selling is another way of describing the exchanging of information one persons talking/selling other person listening/buying.

Thus I can see that when someone has the 'mark' they talk about the 'right things' within society, they do the 'right things' and are accepted, they are allowed to interact, exchange, function within the group. But IF they are only true to following Christ and speaking his truth they are rejected and are 'cut off' from exchanging.
For example if you start pointing our the errors of using idols to Christians who use idols you will find no one wants to 'buy' your story, they will not do 'business' with you!

So I'm seeing a very strong connection between the mark and all the various 'indoctrination's' that people are subject to all over the world politically, religiously and culturally. I'm sure all of us have had a time when we knew we couldn't speak freely about something because it would be unacceptable to the group we were with. It's like when ever that happens we are not being allowed to 'buy or sell' information. So I'm seeing this as far more than just plain shopping.

Let me know what you think.

Digging
 
So you're saying that these passages are promoting an open discourse about Christian beliefs? If so then this is a very good interpretation.
 
I believe this passage is explaining our various societies do not want to allow open discourse about spiritual matters.

Digging
 
I don't see where you pick up the part about saying "the right things". I think it's saying you cannot sell the name/number of the beast without having the mark. Now I don't really know what the mark is referring to, but in this passage, it allows one to sell the name/number of the beast.
 
Ok let me use a different illustration. Let's say speaking 'the right things' is like having the' right currency'. I'm saying 'speaking right things' is simply what is culturally acceptable information, just like certain currency are acceptable and others are not.

When I read the vs in Rev my understanding is only people who have the mark are able to buy and sell with others.

They are trading in the approved currency of information

Now in times past gold was used as currency so I really do find it interesting that Jesus said

Revelation 3:18 NAS
I advise you to buy from Me gold refined by fire so that you may become rich....



 
Yes, exactly he is using these as symbols for spiritual things!

The fact that Jesus used this language in the book of Revelation I feel is very helpful in getting a broader understanding of what the 'buying and selling' might really be talking about. If the account here with Christ is not literal and we can clearly understand that, how can this same pattern of meaning be applied to the other account with the mark?

Digging
 
I sort of disagree with the interpretation only in that the scriptures seem to indicate a transaction between God and us. It doesn't sound like he's telling us to buy/sell from other people, and I think that's what you're getting at with your "right currency" idea.
 
In the first vs of Rev 3:18 the transaction is between us and Jesus I agree, but if we carefully read the other vs it seems to be different and could be referring to transactions between all the different kinds of people mentioned there.

16 And he causes all, the small and the great, and the rich and the poor, and the free men and the slaves, to be given a mark on their right hand or on their forehead, 17 and he provides that no one will be able to buy or to sell, except the one who has the mark, either the name of the beast or the number of his name.

I have seen much written about this mark and many have theories that the mark is a literal mark that only controls the ability of people to in effect go shopping, I just don't think that is a deep enough explanation.

Digging
 
Rev 3:18 This is a message to the Church of Laodicea, which is part of the seven Churches mention in Rev Chapter 1-3 that represent us as being one body of Christ and given us the seven Spirits of God. Seven Spirits are: Spirit of the Lord, wisdom, understanding, counsel, power, knowledge and respect of God, Isaiah 11:2.

Each Church (us) in Revelation had a message from God for the areas they were weak in and what they needed to change. The Church of Laodicea was complacent thinking they needed nothing from God, but yet lacking that of Spiritual things of God. Other words they were going through the motion or giving lip service to the Lord, but not understanding those Spiritual words of God. You have to read vs.17 to understand they were lacking that of the Spiritual and only operating in the carnal. Vs.18 the word gold is not real gold, but represented as being Spiritually renewed in the Spirit of God by His Holy Spirit, John 3:3-7. White raiment means to be Spiritually clothed in Gods righteousness and not our own self-righteousness that is a filthy rag to God that brings shame to us, Isaiah 64:6. To anoint our eyes with salve means to allow our Spiritual eyes to be opened by the Holy Spirit for Spiritual understanding. Vs. 22 sums up what God is speaking to us that those who have Spiritual ears will hear that of instruction given to us by the Holy Spirit teaching us all things, John 14:26.

Rev 13:17 the mark in the forehead or the hand means thoughts of the mind and action of the hands. The beast that is given all power and authority by the dragon (Satan) over that of a one world political, economic and religious system will demand that only those who accept this new leadership (dictatorship) will be able to buy and sell. Those who accept this new leadership are actually bowing down to that of Satan being their god even though they do not realize it until it's to late for them when Christ returns and they find themselves standing in that of Gods judgement without their names be written in the Lambs book of life. Anyone who does not accept this new leadership will be imprisoned and persecuted to death.
 
I have a different view on this all together. I do not believe the mark will allow people to buy or sell but those without the mark will be prevented from doing suchbecause of maybe a law put into place.
 
I understand and respect both of these common traditional views as to the meaning of what the mark does and how it effects the 'buying and selling'. However I just didn't find them truly satisfying so I continued to study and ask questions to myself.

Now I believe this mark has been given to many people all through the ages since Jesus Christ left the earth.

I think there is a very high probability that the mark is about mental and physical assimilation by the empire of men.

Being approved for buying and selling of the theories and doctrines of men is the proof you have been safely assimilated.

You are operating within the mental and physical confines that Empire wants.

All of this is happening now and has being going on for 1000's of years in my view.

Digging
 
I would guess we might understand what we are buying and selling if we knew what that mark granted us. The scripture says that ALL shall receive a mark, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond alike: All shall receive a mark. Since the crucifixion and resurrection of Christ, ALL mankind has been marked by the cross, whether they are believers or not. They created an image of the beast that you should worship the image, and they gave power to the image that it should speak. The image of the beast is Christ on the cross, and he causes you to worship the image of the beast, and by it causes you to serve and worship the image of death. But those that are written in the Lamb's book of life have perfect liberty to buy and sell as they please, because they too have been marked by the cross of Christ, and though this mark bears the death of Christ, it is also bears the image of His resurrection. They worship the Lord in Spirit; they do not worship the image of the beast and they do not worship the image of a man.

I suppose one way to look at the buying and selling might be to look at the history of the church; from the inquisition, to the crusades, to manifest destiny. You either converted to Christianity or you were physically killed in many cases. But what might be the spiritual understanding we can find in this buying and selling. If I think of buying and selling as it relates to the cross, and how he has caused you to worship the image of the beast, and the image of death, then I might picture a man who continues to cast his sins at the cross of Christ, but finds himself in a place where he is suddenly trying to buy the forgiveness of the Lord by selling his works of obedience in return, even in the certain face of death, and thereby remain trapped by the ministration of death. But those that are in the Lamb's book of life, have no need that they should buy or sell, for to them the gift is given freely, and they have only but to ask. They have laid down their lives and have given their flesh over to death, that they might be free to live again unto the living Christ; Born Again in the Spirit, made in the image of His resurrection, living in Faith by the commandment of Grace.
 
I understand the point you are trying to make and they are most interesting thank-you for sharing them with me. I would like you to consider that the way the bible uses this word 'all' doesn't always mean every single person, but also can rather mean 'many'. For example "then went all Judea, and were baptized of him in Jordan."Was all Judea, or all Jerusalem, baptized in Jordan? Like wise in this vs it could also be meaning as in 'all kinds' of people which then the examples are listed.

16 And he causes all,(kinds) the small and the great, and the rich and the poor, and the freemen and the slaves, to be given a mark....(I believe this is one possible way to understand the meaning of 'all' here)

However I do agree in a way with you, the worshipers of the beast and the image are 'marked', which is similar, but I see as rather counterfeit of what the righteous receive Rev 14:1...".having His name and the name of His Father written on their foreheads". I don't believe everyone receives the mark of the beast rather some receive the written name of Jesus and the Father instead, both are types of marks we could say, but different marks I feel.

9 Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger ; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.

Yes I see Christ misused, I see the image of the Beast as being 'institutional Christianity' which has very much misrepresented him.

11 Then I saw another beast coming up out of the earth ; and he had two horns like a lamb and he spoke as a dragon. Christ is the true lamb of God but now this beast is trying to camouflage it's self as a Christ. So for me I see human Empire claiming Christianity as this new beast and the belief systems created to support it as the image of the beast.

You have made a very intriguing point about the buying and selling but I don't see it fitting completely in the instance even though it's a good illustration and I appreciate it. I'm not sure about the way you've said this.
'But those that are written in the Lamb's book of life have perfect liberty to buy and sell as they please'

Since I see the mark as a counterfeit of the written name on the righteous I don't believe the righteous are able to freely exchange with the ones marked by the beast, I believe that's the point of the mark to keep people mentally trapped and away from the message of freedom in Christ.

Matt 21:12 And Jesus entered the temple and drove out all those who were buying and selling in the temple, and over turned the tables of the money changers and the seats of those who were selling doves. 13 And He said to them, "It is written, 'MY HOUSE SHALL BE CALLED A HOUSE OF PRAYER '; but you are making it a ROBBERS' DEN." 14 And the blind and the lame came to Him in the temple, and He healed them.

Lastly I also feel that this vs in Matt is can also shed some light on these vs in Revelation, what do you think ezrider?

Thank-you again for sharing.

Digging




.
 
digging said:
Ok let me use a different illustration. Let's say speaking 'the right things' is like having the' right currency'. I'm saying 'speaking right things' is simply what is culturally acceptable information, just like certain currency are acceptable and others are not.

When I read the vs in Rev my understanding is only people who have the mark are able to buy and sell with others.

They are trading in the approved currency of information

Now in times past gold was used as currency so I really do find it interesting that Jesus said

Revelation 3:18 NAS
I advise you to buy from Me gold refined by fire so that you may become rich....
Click to expand...

Interesting Digging. This reminds me of the "currency" of Masonry and other esoteric groups. Without membership you are excluded from the information trade.
 
YES Agua!!

That's exactly what kind of meaning I've begun to see in this account!

This same pattern of restricted information exchange happens everywhere all the time. Try going into a Catholic Church and start talking about the confessional as a substitution for Jesus Christ as the mediator whom we receive forgiveness through and see how long any one will listen!

But it's more than just religion, it's within society itself culturally, this is why it's so hard for Christians to share the message, they don't want to do business with us they don't want to accept our 'currency' of information. The pure gold we have from Christ.

If we think about it one thing humans really do a lot of is constant exchanging and interaction with each other through communications. It's an outstanding quality of humanity.

Zephaniah 3:9

"Then I will change the speech of the peoples into pure speech, that all of them will call on the name of the LORD and will serve him as one."
"For then I will give the people a clean language, so that they may all make prayer to the Lord and be his servants with one mind."
"For at that time I will change the speech of the peoples to a pure speech, that all of them may call upon the name of the LORD and serve him with one accord."

Matt 21:12 And Jesus entered the temple and drove out all those who were buying and selling in the temple, and over turned the tables of the money changers and the seats of those who were selling doves. 13 And He said to them, "It is written, 'MY HOUSE SHALL BE CALLED A HOUSE OF PRAYER '; but you are making it a ROBBERS' DEN." 14 And the blind and the lame came to Him in the temple, and He healed them.

Revelation 3:18 NAS
I advise you to buy from Me gold refined by fire so that you may become rich, ...........

The pure spiritual language(refined by fire) we receive through our faith in Jesus Christ. We become spiritually rich in every way. This is what the Beast and Image have worked hard to destroy, stealing the hearts and minds of the sheep and creating a counterfeit Christian message for the world to trade with.

John 10:10 NAS
"The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy ; I came that they may have life, and have it abundantly.
The Robbers and thieves are the beast and image whom have stolen the purity of the truth by creating a counterfeit system of spiritual assimilation which has prevented so many from receiving their portion of pure gold from Christ, thus the thievery.

It's all rather an amazing use of symbolism.

Digging
 
digging, I believe the buying and selling can refer to many different levels. In the spiritual sense, the thought I shared about the man trying to buy forgiveness of the Lord by selling in return his obedience to the law of sin in the flesh has become clearer in my mind, and really is quite profound in many aspects. It is interesting how you chose the scriptures about Jesus overturning the tables of the money changers, because the money changers were selling a sacrifice to the people so that they might purchase the mercy of the Lord for their transgressions, giving appearance to remaining obedient before the law.

But you are correct, there is also a physical manifestation that is tangible to our natural understanding. While I have not given this aspect much thought, I believe you and agua. are correct in referencing a currency of ideas and thought. And I think it becomes apparent when we look at ourselves. A Protestant does not listen to a Catholic because they are bound to ritual. The Methodist, the Baptist, the AoG, the JW's and the Mormons all believe their own doctrine. And they all believe themselves to be correct, and then claim the rest are worshiping a different Jesus. And if you buy what they are selling, and you bring that doctrine into this church, you may just be asked to leave. Every body is confined within their denomination, and each in his own way is comforted knowing that Jesus died for their sins. If you look into the world of our political discourse, you know that we are politically a divided country. But if you spend any time browsing the Current Events forum here, it is evident that while most of those commenting claim to be Christian, their minds are truly closed off to anything but their own ideology. If I was to reference MSNBC as documentation to an assertion, It would be rejected out of hand because in their mind it is liberal, and therefore evil, and not to be heard. Even on this very website, people will respond to you differently depending on how you have declared yourself in your profile: Are you a Christian, yes or no?

So what is it that the world see's when someone calls themselves a Christian? And how does the beast define someone who calls themselves a Christian? I would tell you its the cross. We ourselves, the church, and the world in general accept the idea that anyone who believes that Christ died in their behalf for the forgiveness of their sins is pretty much classified as a Christian. And so the world see's a Christian as someone who worships the death of Christ.

You mentioned one of my earlier comments that those who are in the Lamb's book of life have perfect liberty to buy and sell as they please. I may not have fully understood it myself when I typed it, but in this context it makes perfect sense. Those who are in Christ, and he in them follow after the Spirit. They have been set free from the bondage that comes from obedience to sin, and they being dead with Christ have overcome death with him. They are not constrained by a denominational creed or by the doctrines of men. They do not fear another mans thoughts because they do not agree with his own, they will consider the proposition and then let their Spirit weight the matter. By Faith, they have bought of them the gold refined in the fire, they trust in the Lord and listen to his Spirit. By Grace, they bear in themselves the fruits of the Living Christ. But they are free to buy and sell as they please because the Beast only see's the death of Christ, and so do they remain hidden in Christ. The world worships the image of the death of Christ, while the Beast promises his future return. But the scripture tells us whosoever confesses not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God, and that is the Spirit of antichrist; He who confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God. The Spirit of Christ dwells with man, and he has come into our flesh, that we might be formed in his image.

1 John 4:4-6 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them. We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.
 
Thank-you so much for sharing your comments with me ezrider, I appreciation these 'coins' of your shared faith very much!

I will try to write more in a few days very busy for a little while.

Digging
 
digging said:
Revelation 3:18 NAS
I advise you to buy from Me gold refined by fire so that you may become rich, and white garments so that you may clothe yourself, and that the shame of your nakedness will not be revealed ; and eye salve to anoint your eyes so that you may see.

Revelation 13:17 NAS
and he provides that no one will be able to buy or to sell, except the one who has the mark, either the name of the beast or the number of his name.
Click to expand...
My first reaction is the 'buying' in these two passages are unrelated.



digging said:
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How are we to understand what Jesus is saying in Rev 3:18? Is he selling real gold? Is he selling clothing and selling eye salve? Are we to literally buy these things from him?
Click to expand...
Reminds me of Jesus going to tell the unwise virgins to go buy oil for their lamps.

It's not literal. We need something from Jesus to be prepared to meet Jesus. Faith is the currency, the 'gold', of the kingdom. With it you can purchase clothing for your nakedness (good deeds), and salve for your blindness (spiritual blindness), and oil for your lamp (the Holy Spirit). Things required for one to enter into the kingdom. The cost of the gold, the faith, that secures this required clothing and sight and oil? Your very life--it will cost you everything. This is where my understanding of Revelation 3:18 is at right now.

The buying and selling in regard to the mark of the beast is in reference to the 'currency' you need to function in the world, a functioning that does include buying and selling the literal things of this life. After the resurrection, believing Jews were excluded from the local economy and suffered for it. When you have the currency of the world, you are accepted by the world, and you are marked as belonging to the beast and the world. You are marked for destruction.
 
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Yes Jethro the two passages are not directly related, they are not talking about the same exact things being bought but the essences of how the 'buying' is being used to symbolize something else is the connection that I'm seeing.

I'm glad you can also see how the 'currency' is connected as a symbol of interaction with the world.

Digging
 
IMO the buying and selling reserved for those with the mark refers to the effects of the whoredom of the Jewish leadership(second beast) in the late AD60's with the motivations and values of the pagan Roman Empire(first beast). In order to take part in the commercialized Jewish temple worship(buying and selling) their followers were required by a corrupted leadership to assume the thinking or actions(marked forehead or hand) of the pagan Roman beast, even though they still referred to themselves as God's People. In other words, by the time Jerusalem fell there was no longer any significant difference between the Jews and Gentiles in terms of actions and beliefs. This mirrors God's condemnation of Jerusalem's polytheists prior to its destruction at the hand of the Babylonians over 600yrs earlier.

How can this relate to us? Beware of religious leadership motivated by worldly power or wealth, for God will excise it to deliver His Body from corruption.
 
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