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tidymas

. If they died in their sins, they would not obtain redemption,

Problem with this, the unbelieving elect who Christ died for, cant die in their sins, since Christ has already died for those very sins and satisfied Gods Law and Justice for. They ave no sins to die in, and God will not impute sin unto them Rom 4:8

8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
 
tidymas



Problem with this, the unbelieving elect who Christ died for, cant die in their sins, since Christ has already died for those very sins and satisfied Gods Law and Justice for. They ave no sins to die in, and God will not impute sin unto them Rom 4:8

8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
You apparently misunderstood me, as I was making a point. I knew you would nitpick at this, and is the reason why I said "God causes the elect to be converted." But my last attempt fails at diverting you from arguing about it, so again, I'm out of here.
 
Why would Christ be judged for our sin when He was sinless, but sacrificed His own life that by the grace of God through faith we who are the whosoever's in John 3:16 that believe in Him will have eternal life with Him.
Agreed

You can not be a sheep before you believe and have faith.
You can be a sheep before the foundation of the earth, God having predetermined your destiny.
  • Psalm 139:16 Your eyes have seen my unformed substance; And in Your book were all written The days that were appointed for me, When as yet there was not one of them [even taking shape].
Can a GOAT turn into a lamb?
Mat. 25:32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

God did not predestine the man (which individuals would be saved & lost), He predestined the plan (how men would be saved) - read again Acts 10:34-35; Eph. 1:3-12; Rom. 8:28-30; 10:9-17.
God predestined THE PLAN and THE PLAN includes ALL THINGS (people).
Eph. 1:4 just as [in His love] He chose us in Christ .... it says God chose the person
Acts 10:34-35 but in every nation the person who fears God and does what is right [by seeking Him] is acceptable and welcomed by Him.... nothing here about predestining THE PLAN ... refers to the effect, not the cause which would be predestination in this discussion
Romans 8:29 For those whom He foreknew [and loved and chose beforehand], He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son .... it says God chose the person where FOREKNEW is predestination ... the verse does NOT says God foreknew THE PLAN (though He does foreknow the plan which includes the person)

  • Psalm 65:4 Blessed is the one whom You choose .. this is the PERSON, though the PLAN is also chosen
  • Psalm 139:16 Your eyes have seen my unformed substance; And in Your book were all written The days that were appointed for me, When as yet there was not one of them [even taking shape]. .. this is the PERSON and the PLAN
  • Matthew 11:27 All things have been entrusted and delivered to Me by My Father; and no one fully knows and accurately understands the Son except the Father, and no one fully knows and accurately understands the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son deliberately wills to make Him known. [the will of the Son determines who knows God]
  • Matthew 13:11 And He replied to them, to you it has been given to know the secrets and mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given. .. this is the PERSON, though the PLAN is also chosen
  • Matthew 22:14 For many are called (invited, summoned), but few are chosen... this is the PERSON, though the PLAN is also chosen
  • Luke 12:32 "Do not be afraid, little flock, for your Father has chosen gladly to give you the kingdom .. this is the PERSON, though the PLAN is also chosen
  • John 12:39-40 “They could not believe, because Isaiah said again: “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts .. this is the PERSON, though the PLAN is also chosen
  • John 15:19b but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you.
  • Acts 13:48 When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed (decided on beforehand; designated) for eternal life believed.
  • Romans 9:11 And the children were yet unborn and had so far done nothing either good or evil. Even so, in order further to carry out God’s purpose of selection (election, choice), which depends not on works or what men can do, but on Him Who calls [them]
  • Romans 9:18 So then, He has mercy on whom He wills (chooses), and He hardens [the heart of] whom He wills.
  • Roman 10:20b “I have been found by those who did not seek Me; I have shown Myself to those who did not [consciously] ask for Me.
  • 1 Cor 1:27 But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. 28 He chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things--and the things that are not--to nullify the things that are, 29 so that no one may boast before him. 30 It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus,
  • 5 He predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of His glorious grace and favor Not the PLAN, God predestined the PERSON
  • Ephesians 1:11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will All things includes THE PLAN and THE PERSON
I could go on ...

Aside: Dualism ... the belief that God and an 'some other power(s)' determines events. The belief that the adoption of God's children (those He places IN CHRIST) is determined by another power outside of His own. The belief that God shares his glory with man by giving man credit for his salvific belief. The belief that NOTHING (for that is what we once were) ... that NOTHING can self-determine. ex nihilo nihil fit
 
You can not be a sheep before you believe and have faith.
John 10:26, Jesus says, "You do not believe because you are not my sheep." So a person is Jesus' sheep before he believes, and it is because he is his sheep that he believes. How does one become Jesus' sheep? Verse 29 says, "My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand." Jesus' sheep are what they are because they have been given to him by the Father, and remember, this is why they believe.
However, according to our opponents' theology, we freely decide to believe, and anyone can do it. Applying it to this passage, Jesus would have to say that we are the ones who give ourselves to him, and that we are the ones who make ourselves his sheep. Needless to say, this contradicts John 10, and therefore it is false doctrine.

Vincent Chueng
 
John 10:26, Jesus says, "You do not believe because you are not my sheep." So a person is Jesus' sheep before he believes, and it is because he is his sheep that he believes. How does one become Jesus' sheep? Verse 29 says, "My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand." Jesus' sheep are what they are because they have been given to him by the Father, and remember, this is why they believe.
However, according to our opponents' theology, we freely decide to believe, and anyone can do it. Applying it to this passage, Jesus would have to say that we are the ones who give ourselves to him, and that we are the ones who make ourselves his sheep. Needless to say, this contradicts John 10, and therefore it is false doctrine.

Vincent Chueng
How many unbelievers "changed their spots" later?
Paul did.
 
How many unbelievers "changed their spots" later?
Paul did.
Yes, Paul did change his "spots" later. But this does not address the cause of his changing his spots.
Paul
Acts 9:1-9 Paul’s conversion … If ever there was a man who willed to follow God it was Paul. Yet, Paul was an unbeliever until Christ directly intervenes. … 1 Timothy 1:13 though formerly I was a blasphemer, persecutor, and insolent opponent. But I received mercy because I had acted ignorantly in unbelief, 14 and the grace of our Lord was poured out on me abundantly, along with the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus.
1 Corinthians 1:1 “Paul, called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God”

Lydia
Act 16:14 One of those listening was a woman named Lydia, a dealer in purple cloth from the city of Thyatira, who was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to respond to Paul's message.

All of Israel
This is an example of salvation by God’s choice; not mans. Jeremiah 31:33-34; Ezekiel 36:24-28, Romans 11:26 And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written, “The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish unGodliness from Jacob”; 27 “and this will be my covenant with them when I take away their sins.”

Acts 2:1-43 Three thousand person were converted on the day of Pentecost. Most of them had seen the person and the works of Christ. They had heard his instructions. They had hitherto resisted all the influences flowing from the exhibition of his character and the truth of his doctrines. Their conversion was sudden, apparently instantaneous. It was not a natural change, effected by the influence of truth on the mind, or produced by a process of moral suasion.

Matthew 16:16 Simon Peter replied, “You are the Christ (the Messiah, the Anointed), the Son of the living God.” 17 Then Jesus answered him, “Blessed [happy, spiritually secure, favored by God] are you, Simon son of Jonah, because flesh and blood (mortal man) did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.

Jacob
Jacob I loved by Esau I hated (Before they were born God chose Jacob as a LAMB, Esau as a goat. When they were NOTHING, God chose. Nothing comes from nothing so nothing cannot tell you something... thus God predetermined (chose) their destiny .. lamb/goat ... heaven/hell

Ethiopian Enoch
The guy reads the scripture and doesn't understand it until God send Philip. God was the cause of Philip converting God lamb of which He will lose NONE.

etc. etc.

No one choices their choices. You don't determine parents, your race, your sex ... you don't even determine is you will ever hear the gospel and faith cometh by hearing so you don't (at least in this respect) control whether or not you will be saved salvificly.
 
Agreed


You can be a sheep before the foundation of the earth, God having predetermined your destiny.
  • Psalm 139:16 Your eyes have seen my unformed substance; And in Your book were all written The days that were appointed for me, When as yet there was not one of them [even taking shape].
Can a GOAT turn into a lamb?
Mat. 25:32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.


God predestined THE PLAN and THE PLAN includes ALL THINGS (people).
Eph. 1:4 just as [in His love] He chose us in Christ .... it says God chose the person
Acts 10:34-35 but in every nation the person who fears God and does what is right [by seeking Him] is acceptable and welcomed by Him.... nothing here about predestining THE PLAN ... refers to the effect, not the cause which would be predestination in this discussion
Romans 8:29 For those whom He foreknew [and loved and chose beforehand], He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son .... it says God chose the person where FOREKNEW is predestination ... the verse does NOT says God foreknew THE PLAN (though He does foreknow the plan which includes the person)

  • Psalm 65:4 Blessed is the one whom You choose .. this is the PERSON, though the PLAN is also chosen
  • Psalm 139:16 Your eyes have seen my unformed substance; And in Your book were all written The days that were appointed for me, When as yet there was not one of them [even taking shape]. .. this is the PERSON and the PLAN
  • Matthew 11:27 All things have been entrusted and delivered to Me by My Father; and no one fully knows and accurately understands the Son except the Father, and no one fully knows and accurately understands the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son deliberately wills to make Him known. [the will of the Son determines who knows God]
  • Matthew 13:11 And He replied to them, to you it has been given to know the secrets and mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given. .. this is the PERSON, though the PLAN is also chosen
  • Matthew 22:14 For many are called (invited, summoned), but few are chosen... this is the PERSON, though the PLAN is also chosen
  • Luke 12:32 "Do not be afraid, little flock, for your Father has chosen gladly to give you the kingdom .. this is the PERSON, though the PLAN is also chosen
  • John 12:39-40 “They could not believe, because Isaiah said again: “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts .. this is the PERSON, though the PLAN is also chosen
  • John 15:19b but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you.
  • Acts 13:48 When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed (decided on beforehand; designated) for eternal life believed.
  • Romans 9:11 And the children were yet unborn and had so far done nothing either good or evil. Even so, in order further to carry out God’s purpose of selection (election, choice), which depends not on works or what men can do, but on Him Who calls [them]
  • Romans 9:18 So then, He has mercy on whom He wills (chooses), and He hardens [the heart of] whom He wills.
  • Roman 10:20b “I have been found by those who did not seek Me; I have shown Myself to those who did not [consciously] ask for Me.
  • 1 Cor 1:27 But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. 28 He chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things--and the things that are not--to nullify the things that are, 29 so that no one may boast before him. 30 It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus,
  • 5 He predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of His glorious grace and favor Not the PLAN, God predestined the PERSON
  • Ephesians 1:11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will All things includes THE PLAN and THE PERSON
I could go on ...

Aside: Dualism ... the belief that God and an 'some other power(s)' determines events. The belief that the adoption of God's children (those He places IN CHRIST) is determined by another power outside of His own. The belief that God shares his glory with man by giving man credit for his salvific belief. The belief that NOTHING (for that is what we once were) ... that NOTHING can self-determine. ex nihilo nihil fit
Do you agree with the OP that none of the elect are ever in danger of the second death? If so:
1. Why all the grave warnings written to the churches?
2. Why does anyone not believing (and practicing sin) have no inheritance in the kingdom of Christ?
3. What do you do with Rom. 3:10-18 and other such passages teaching total depravity of every unregenerate person?

Ok, I get that all the elect will eventually believe and obey, as God causes them to be converted and born again. From an eternal POV they were predestined to be saved. However, the way I read the NT is that salvation is necessary for the elect because they are indeed in danger of lake of fire judgment. There is a chronology in the process of predestination. God's plan has to be worked out, because if the plan is thwarted (hypothetically), those people won't be converted, and they will be judged "as the rest," because they are "children of wrath." If there were no real danger of judgment for the elect before they hear the gospel and believe, then the part of the gospel that says there is a real need to be saved seems like a big fat lie. It seems to me that the OP has entered into the realm of hypercalvinist heresy. The redemption of Christ is "once for all," but it is not appropriated to a person prior to that person hearing the gospel and believing. If it is claimed that it is appropriated before regeneration, that will negate the necessity to believe and obey the gospel, which the NT is clear of such necessity (ref 2 Thes. 12:8-10). What do you think about that?
 
John 10:26, Jesus says, "You do not believe because you are not my sheep." So a person is Jesus' sheep before he believes, and it is because he is his sheep that he believes. How does one become Jesus' sheep? Verse 29 says, "My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand." Jesus' sheep are what they are because they have been given to him by the Father, and remember, this is why they believe.
However, according to our opponents' theology, we freely decide to believe, and anyone can do it. Applying it to this passage, Jesus would have to say that we are the ones who give ourselves to him, and that we are the ones who make ourselves his sheep. Needless to say, this contradicts John 10, and therefore it is false doctrine.

Vincent Chueng
Even the devils believe and tremble at His name, James 2:19. It takes faith by God's grace to truly believe Jesus is the Son of God as He draws us to Him, John 6:44. Not everyone will draw to Him as they walk in unbelief.

Look at verse 26 as I display the full context.

John 10:24 Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.
John 10:25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
John 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
John 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
John 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

But you believe not, because you are not my sheep. I think that answers the question that no one who walks in unbelief can be His sheep.


Vincent Chueng taught Reformed theology and claims God is the author of sin. I can not agree with that as it goes against God's nature.
 
Agreed


You can be a sheep before the foundation of the earth, God having predetermined your destiny.
  • Psalm 139:16 Your eyes have seen my unformed substance; And in Your book were all written The days that were appointed for me, When as yet there was not one of them [even taking shape].
Can a GOAT turn into a lamb?
Mat. 25:32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.


God predestined THE PLAN and THE PLAN includes ALL THINGS (people).
Eph. 1:4 just as [in His love] He chose us in Christ .... it says God chose the person
Acts 10:34-35 but in every nation the person who fears God and does what is right [by seeking Him] is acceptable and welcomed by Him.... nothing here about predestining THE PLAN ... refers to the effect, not the cause which would be predestination in this discussion
Romans 8:29 For those whom He foreknew [and loved and chose beforehand], He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son .... it says God chose the person where FOREKNEW is predestination ... the verse does NOT says God foreknew THE PLAN (though He does foreknow the plan which includes the person)

  • Psalm 65:4 Blessed is the one whom You choose .. this is the PERSON, though the PLAN is also chosen
  • Psalm 139:16 Your eyes have seen my unformed substance; And in Your book were all written The days that were appointed for me, When as yet there was not one of them [even taking shape]. .. this is the PERSON and the PLAN
  • Matthew 11:27 All things have been entrusted and delivered to Me by My Father; and no one fully knows and accurately understands the Son except the Father, and no one fully knows and accurately understands the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son deliberately wills to make Him known. [the will of the Son determines who knows God]
  • Matthew 13:11 And He replied to them, to you it has been given to know the secrets and mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given. .. this is the PERSON, though the PLAN is also chosen
  • Matthew 22:14 For many are called (invited, summoned), but few are chosen... this is the PERSON, though the PLAN is also chosen
  • Luke 12:32 "Do not be afraid, little flock, for your Father has chosen gladly to give you the kingdom .. this is the PERSON, though the PLAN is also chosen
  • John 12:39-40 “They could not believe, because Isaiah said again: “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts .. this is the PERSON, though the PLAN is also chosen
  • John 15:19b but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you.
  • Acts 13:48 When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed (decided on beforehand; designated) for eternal life believed.
  • Romans 9:11 And the children were yet unborn and had so far done nothing either good or evil. Even so, in order further to carry out God’s purpose of selection (election, choice), which depends not on works or what men can do, but on Him Who calls [them]
  • Romans 9:18 So then, He has mercy on whom He wills (chooses), and He hardens [the heart of] whom He wills.
  • Roman 10:20b “I have been found by those who did not seek Me; I have shown Myself to those who did not [consciously] ask for Me.
  • 1 Cor 1:27 But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. 28 He chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things--and the things that are not--to nullify the things that are, 29 so that no one may boast before him. 30 It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus,
  • 5 He predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of His glorious grace and favor Not the PLAN, God predestined the PERSON
  • Ephesians 1:11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will All things includes THE PLAN and THE PERSON
I could go on ...

Aside: Dualism ... the belief that God and an 'some other power(s)' determines events. The belief that the adoption of God's children (those He places IN CHRIST) is determined by another power outside of His own. The belief that God shares his glory with man by giving man credit for his salvific belief. The belief that NOTHING (for that is what we once were) ... that NOTHING can self-determine. ex nihilo nihil fit
You and I have been through this many times and we will never agree on this. I will leave you with this once more. God did not predestined who would be His own as that would show favor of man, but predestined the plan of salvation through Christ Jesus before the foundation of the world.
 
Do you agree with the OP that none of the elect are ever in danger of the second death?
Yes, that is part of the definition of the 'elect'. I believe that definition is almost universally accepted by Christians. The “elect" of God” are those whom God has predestined to salvation.
(Aside: I am assuming you are not talking about ISRAEL, who constitute another entity known as the 'elect' or the 'elect' angels)

Why all the grave warnings written to the churches?
This is not directly relevant to the “elect of God” who are those whom God has predestined to salvation.
I can't believe you don't know the answer. The purpose of "Warnings" is to act as God's instructions for obedience and consequences. This is the way God has chosen to interact with us 'dummies'.


Why does anyone not believing (and practicing sin) have no inheritance in the kingdom of Christ?
This is not directly relevant to the “elect of God” who are those whom God has predestined to salvation.
I can't believe you don't know the answer. I assume by 'believing' you are talking about faith that causes salvation. Anyone the does not have salvific faith does not share in Christ's inheritance (Theology 101)

What do you do with Rom. 3:10-18 and other such passages teaching total depravity of every unregenerate person?
This is not directly relevant to the “elect of God” who are those whom God has predestined to salvation.
Depravity is the inability to do “good” in the manner which is pleasing to God (Hebrews 11:6). Depravity is what Gods sees when He looks at fallen man and not what He sees when He looks at Himself or those who have the righteousness of Christ imputed to them Isaiah 53:11. Total depravity means that there is nothing in fallen man which God can find pleasure or accept. Total depravity means that man is, in spirit and soul and body, the slave of sin and the captive of the Devil; "following the prince of the power of the air”. [You were obedient to and under the control of] the [demon] spirit that still constantly works in the sons of disobedience [the careless, the rebellious, and the unbelieving, who go against the purposes of God]."

Ok, I get that all the elect will eventually believe and obey, as God causes them to be converted and born again. From an eternal POV they were predestined to be saved.
Agreed.

there is a chronology in the process of predestination. God's plan has to be worked out, because if the plan is thwarted (hypothetically), those people won't be converted, and they will be judged "as the rest," because they are "children of wrath."
Agreed. (God's plan cannot be thwarted) It would be nice if plan was thwarting such that Adam and Eve never sin :chin )


If there were no real danger of judgment for the elect before they hear the gospel and believe, then the part of the gospel that says there is a real need to be saved seems like a big fat lie.
I don't think I follow you.
It is not possible for any of the elect to not hear the gospel. All the elect must hear the gospel as faith cometh by hearing and faith is a prerequisite of being a child of God. God's plan of salvation includes:
  1. to select/chose whom He would save in eternity past (before TIME existed).
  2. God create earth/man/time
  3. God sends Christ as Redemption, Reconciliation, Propitiation
  4. Joe Blow is born and is part of the elect
  5. Joe Blow hears the salvific gospel
  6. Joe Blow is caused to believe the gospel he has heard
Step 1 thru 6 all all necessary to Joe Blow to be saved. Now, God could have saved the 'elect' via another method. We assume God always uses the best method/plan so this is what He has determined the process is. God determines the process/'the need'. God has determines 'the process' to be necessary.

It seems to me that the OP has entered into the realm of hypercalvinist heresy.
I don't follow. What is the heresy specifically?


The redemption of Christ is "once for all," but it is not appropriated to a person prior to that person hearing the gospel and believing. If it is claimed that it is appropriated before regeneration, that will negate the necessity to believe and obey the gospel, which the NT is clear of such necessity (ref 2 Thes. 12:8-10). What do you think about that?
I think you conflating 'Gods Plan' and the 'execution in time of Gods Plan'; that for some reason the PLAN and the Execution of the Plan are one and the same. (not sure I am following you though).
God is eternal, he has no succession of moments. In this sense you are always saved. God acts in time and from a human/time stand point you are saved at some point in a succession of moments. So, it depends on your view point. God's viewpoint is you are always one of the chosen. God plays out one's conversion in time. (I grant that I, and no one for that matter, understands what it is to be eternal and getting into interesting metaphysics)

Maybe you should think of one's salvation as being first "assigned" and later "applied". You were always going to be adopted by God (assigned in eternity past) and this adoption took place (was applied) in 1972 (or whenever). The 'application' is a necessary part of your salvation but is was predestined (Assigned) in eternity past.

Maybe I don't understand what you are getting at.
 
Yes, Paul did change his "spots" later. But this does not address the cause of his changing his spots.
Paul
Acts 9:1-9 Paul’s conversion … If ever there was a man who willed to follow God it was Paul. Yet, Paul was an unbeliever until Christ directly intervenes. … 1 Timothy 1:13 though formerly I was a blasphemer, persecutor, and insolent opponent. But I received mercy because I had acted ignorantly in unbelief, 14 and the grace of our Lord was poured out on me abundantly, along with the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus.
1 Corinthians 1:1 “Paul, called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God”

Lydia
Act 16:14 One of those listening was a woman named Lydia, a dealer in purple cloth from the city of Thyatira, who was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to respond to Paul's message.

All of Israel
This is an example of salvation by God’s choice; not mans. Jeremiah 31:33-34; Ezekiel 36:24-28, Romans 11:26 And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written, “The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish unGodliness from Jacob”; 27 “and this will be my covenant with them when I take away their sins.”

Acts 2:1-43 Three thousand person were converted on the day of Pentecost. Most of them had seen the person and the works of Christ. They had heard his instructions. They had hitherto resisted all the influences flowing from the exhibition of his character and the truth of his doctrines. Their conversion was sudden, apparently instantaneous. It was not a natural change, effected by the influence of truth on the mind, or produced by a process of moral suasion.

Matthew 16:16 Simon Peter replied, “You are the Christ (the Messiah, the Anointed), the Son of the living God.” 17 Then Jesus answered him, “Blessed [happy, spiritually secure, favored by God] are you, Simon son of Jonah, because flesh and blood (mortal man) did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.

Jacob
Jacob I loved by Esau I hated (Before they were born God chose Jacob as a LAMB, Esau as a goat. When they were NOTHING, God chose. Nothing comes from nothing so nothing cannot tell you something... thus God predetermined (chose) their destiny .. lamb/goat ... heaven/hell

Ethiopian Enoch
The guy reads the scripture and doesn't understand it until God send Philip. God was the cause of Philip converting God lamb of which He will lose NONE.

etc. etc.

No one choices their choices. You don't determine parents, your race, your sex ... you don't even determine is you will ever hear the gospel and faith cometh by hearing so you don't (at least in this respect) control whether or not you will be saved salvificly.
This has become a "which came first" conversation.
Did God "choose us" or did we "choose God".
God is available to all...right?
Is it God's doing that some reply to Him?
If so, then it is God's fault that others do not respond to Him.
I can't believe God "forces" some into the lake of fire.

How can some men avoid judgement for their sins, if God wouldn't allow their conversion?

This just seems like another way for the devil to give false hope to those who really just want their sin instead of eternal life.
 
Even the devils believe and tremble at His name, James 2:19. It takes faith by God's grace to truly believe Jesus is the Son of God as He draws us to Him, John 6:44. Not everyone will draw to Him as they walk in unbelief.
Agreed. (we disagree as to the cause of one's faith ... but that is not address here)


But you believe not, because you are not my sheep. I think that answers the question that no one who walks in unbelief can be His sheep.
Agreed, those that will never believe salvifically are not God's sheep. Our point of contention is WHO ARE GOD'S SHEEP, not who and how to identify the goats. Our contention IMO is when does one become God's sheep. I say the elect are always identified as God's sheep and you say IMO we change into sheep from goats when we are converted. So me a verse where God calls someone a goat that we know will become a sheep in time. Like, Saul was a goat but became a sheep.
“I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep." You say IMO Christ died the goats that may someday become sheep. I say Christ only died for his Sheep.
You say IMO that God died in vain for billions of goats because faith hearing and billions of people never hear the gospel which is a prerequisite for salvation. I say Christ did not die in vain as He died exclusively for the sheep He chose and He ensure ALL HIS SHEEP hear the gospel.
(Aside: the conflation of 'sheep' and 'goats' hides the important stuff IMO)


Vincent Chueng taught Reformed theology and claims God is the author of sin. I can not agree with that as it goes against God's nature.
Wow... didn't think anyone had heard of him. You know your stuff.
Chueng does teach Reformed theology. Reformed theology does not teach God is the author of sin. Aside: we've gone on a tangent.
 
God is available to all...right?
Incorrect ... I am assuming in mean available such that a person has an opportunity from man's perspective to be saved
Proof:
  • Premise 1: Faith in Christ is required for salvation John 3:36 He who believes and trusts in the Son and accepts Him [as Savior] has eternal life; but he who does not believe the Son and chooses to reject Him, will not see [eternal] life, but [instead] the wrath of God hangs over him continually.”
  • Premise 2: Faith cometh by hearing the gospel
  • Premise 3: Billions of people have died that have not heard the gospel https://www.globalcp.org/statistics
  • Conclusion: God is not available to ALL.
Given the proof above, how does this change your contention(s) or was it an irrelevant question or do I have a false premise?

Is it God's doing that some reply to Him?
Yes ... I am assuming you mean in a salvific sense when you say 'reply'.
If you believe salvation is not God's doing then you believe in dualism ... that some other cosmic power has caused a person to 'reply to him'. For God knows before the foundation of the earth those that will believe salvificly. So either God determines one's salvation, or He consults with some other cosmic, eternal power to determine one's salvation. He can't consult you in eternity past because as yet you were nothing ... and nothing comes from nothing.

John 1:12-13; Phil. 1:29
Psalm 139:16 Your eyes saw my unformed substance, and in Your book all the days [of my life] were written before ever they took shape, when as yet there was none of them. [Your life is written (not recorded) by God, we follow His script and not our own ... at the time you were NOTHING so there is NOTHING to record ....unless some other eternal power told God what was to happen]


If so, then it is God's fault that others do not respond to Him.
"Fault" implies responsibility for an accident or misfortune. The misfortune is the fault of the sinner. God does determine who will respond salvificly IMO.


I can't believe God "forces" some into the lake of fire.
Well, where's your evidence to support your contention. I've shown that billions of people go to the lake of fire because they never heard the gospel. How does that fit into your opinion of what God does and does not do?


How can some men avoid judgement for their sins, if God wouldn't allow their conversion?
They can't. Just like I could not avoid a sin nature being imputed to me from Adam ... yet I am held responsible.
Now, if God wanted to avoid judgement He could cause all those who would not believe salvificly to die in child birth and thus save them (assuming 'age of accountability to be true) ... so, it's not like God's can't save everyone .... or God could have created another Adam that would not eat the forbidden fruit. It's not like God is not in control IMO.


This just seems like another way for the devil to give false hope to those who really just want their sin instead of eternal life.
God controls the devil ... see Job.

Isaiah 55:8 “For My thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways My ways,” declares the LORD.
 
Agreed. (we disagree as to the cause of one's faith ... but that is not address here)



Agreed, those that will never believe salvifically are not God's sheep. Our point of contention is WHO ARE GOD'S SHEEP, not who and how to identify the goats. Our contention IMO is when does one become God's sheep. I say the elect are always identified as God's sheep and you say IMO we change into sheep from goats when we are converted. So me a verse where God calls someone a goat that we know will become a sheep in time. Like, Saul was a goat but became a sheep.
“I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep." You say IMO Christ died the goats that may someday become sheep. I say Christ only died for his Sheep.
You say IMO that God died in vain for billions of goats because faith hearing and billions of people never hear the gospel which is a prerequisite for salvation. I say Christ did not die in vain as He died exclusively for the sheep He chose and He ensure ALL HIS SHEEP hear the gospel.
(Aside: the conflation of 'sheep' and 'goats' hides the important stuff IMO)



Wow... didn't think anyone had heard of him. You know your stuff.
Chueng does teach Reformed theology. Reformed theology does not teach God is the author of sin. Aside: we've gone on a tangent.
Please refrain from saying "you said IMO" and then put words in my mouth that I did not speak. I check on all names I never heard of before to see their background like I do with many different religions.

We were all goats at one time before we first believed and from our heart accepted Jesus as our Lord and Savior. We were all created in the image of God, but yet have all fallen short of His glory. It is only those who will have ears to hear the Shepherd calling them that they will find Him. It doesn't make any sense that one can be a believer before they believe. Many are called, but few are chosen unto Him.
 
Yes, that is part of the definition of the 'elect'. I believe that definition is almost universally accepted by Christians. The “elect" of God” are those whom God has predestined to salvation.
(Aside: I am assuming you are not talking about ISRAEL, who constitute another entity known as the 'elect' or the 'elect' angels)
I don't agree that it is part of the definition of the elect. Being predestined to salvation doesn't mean that there is never a time those people are in danger of judgment. The fact that they are eventually saved means they had a need to be saved from some kind of danger, namely the wrath of God.
This is not directly relevant to the “elect of God” who are those whom God has predestined to salvation.
I can't believe you don't know the answer. The purpose of "Warnings" is to act as God's instructions for obedience and consequences. This is the way God has chosen to interact with us 'dummies'.



This is not directly relevant to the “elect of God” who are those whom God has predestined to salvation.
I can't believe you don't know the answer. I assume by 'believing' you are talking about faith that causes salvation. Anyone the does not have salvific faith does not share in Christ's inheritance (Theology 101)


This is not directly relevant to the “elect of God” who are those whom God has predestined to salvation.
Depravity is the inability to do “good” in the manner which is pleasing to God (Hebrews 11:6). Depravity is what Gods sees when He looks at fallen man and not what He sees when He looks at Himself or those who have the righteousness of Christ imputed to them Isaiah 53:11. Total depravity means that there is nothing in fallen man which God can find pleasure or accept. Total depravity means that man is, in spirit and soul and body, the slave of sin and the captive of the Devil; "following the prince of the power of the air”. [You were obedient to and under the control of] the [demon] spirit that still constantly works in the sons of disobedience [the careless, the rebellious, and the unbelieving, who go against the purposes of God]."
I don't agree that those passages are not relevant or not "directly relevant" to the elect. The fact that they are written to the churches means that there is real danger, which is heeded only by those instilled with spiritual wisdom.
Agreed.


Agreed. (God's plan cannot be thwarted) It would be nice if plan was thwarting such that Adam and Eve never sin :chin )
I'm glad we agree on something here.
I don't think I follow you.
It is not possible for any of the elect to not hear the gospel. All the elect must hear the gospel as faith cometh by hearing and faith is a prerequisite of being a child of God. God's plan of salvation includes:
  1. to select/chose whom He would save in eternity past (before TIME existed).
  2. God create earth/man/time
  3. God sends Christ as Redemption, Reconciliation, Propitiation
  4. Joe Blow is born and is part of the elect
  5. Joe Blow hears the salvific gospel
  6. Joe Blow is caused to believe the gospel he has heard
Step 1 thru 6 all all necessary to Joe Blow to be saved. Now, God could have saved the 'elect' via another method. We assume God always uses the best method/plan so this is what He has determined the process is. God determines the process/'the need'. God has determines 'the process' to be necessary.


I don't follow. What is the heresy specifically?
It's speculating against clear teaching in the text. It's saying there is no danger when the text says there is.
I think you conflating 'Gods Plan' and the 'execution in time of Gods Plan'; that for some reason the PLAN and the Execution of the Plan are one and the same. (not sure I am following you though).
God is eternal, he has no succession of moments. In this sense you are always saved. God acts in time and from a human/time stand point you are saved at some point in a succession of moments. So, it depends on your view point. God's viewpoint is you are always one of the chosen. God plays out one's conversion in time. (I grant that I, and no one for that matter, understands what it is to be eternal and getting into interesting metaphysics)

Maybe you should think of one's salvation as being first "assigned" and later "applied". You were always going to be adopted by God (assigned in eternity past) and this adoption took place (was applied) in 1972 (or whenever). The 'application' is a necessary part of your salvation but is was predestined (Assigned) in eternity past.

Maybe I don't understand what you are getting at.
Ok, "always going to be..." doesn't mean it is so before it's done. When Paul wrote we are chosen "in Him" before the foundation of the world, it doesn't mean we were "in Him" at that time, just as it doesn't mean we existed at that time. So it would be a correct interpretation to paraphrase that as "we were chosen to be in Him..." Predestined means that God planned for us to be saved (from His wrath). It doesn't mean we were saved before being saved.

I'm not conflating anything. Plan means it is worked out on paper before anything happens. If a blind person is walking toward a cliff (thinking he's on a secure path), having a plan to redirect him doesn't mean he is out of danger. You have to actually redirect him to get him out of danger. In the same way, God had to actually redirect the life of the elect before they are out of danger. Therefore, we were in danger of the wrath of God prior to redemption being applied.

But it seems to me that you are actually conflating "assigned" and "applied," as if they mean the same thing, just at different times. How do you know that God has no succession of moments? Nothing in scripture says that, therefore that is conjecture. It is true that God's plan cannot be thwarted, and the elect will surely be saved. It doesn't mean they are already saved from His wrath. Everyone begins in the same place, as unregenerate and unbelieving, as described in Rom. 3:10-18 and Eph. 2:1-3. Therefore, everyone is subject to the wrath of God in that condition.
 
Summary of my comments below:
I think we are just looking at it from different angles. You from man's point of view IMO and I from God's point of view (if that is possible to some degree). From man's point of view I think I am in agreement with your points.

Being predestined to salvation doesn't mean that there is never a time those people are in danger of judgment. The fact that they are eventually saved means they had a need to be saved from some kind of danger, namely the wrath of God.
Danger is defined as "the possibility of suffering harm or injury." Since God in eternity past predestined the elect to salvation there is NO the possibility of suffering harm or injury ... no danger. I think we have a semantic issue. I think I can see it from your point of view. There is definitely perceived danger from man's point of view.

I don't agree that those passages are not relevant or not "directly relevant" to the elect. The fact that they are written to the churches means that there is real danger, which is heeded only by those instilled with spiritual wisdom.
Please identify to probability of anyone among the elect of going to hell. (God's point of view).
If the probability if 0% then then is NO REAL DANGER. God is truth. God's perspective is truth. God sees no danger in any of the elect going to hell (John 6:39). There is perceived danger on the part of men among the elect.
I am not sure what point you are trying to make by saying the ELECT are in danger.


It's speculating against clear teaching in the text. It's saying there is no danger when the text says there is.
Well, maybe we are talking about a different danger. I am talking about the danger of going to hell for the elect which there is none from God's perspective. There are other dangers, this I grant. Maybe you are talking about them.


I'm glad we agree on something here.
I think we are having a communication problem .... I am getting lost in the details. I am not sure what the main issue is. :chin


Ok, "always going to be..." doesn't mean it is so before it's done.
God is in all points of time simultaneously (or so they say, I AM, 1,000 yrs is like and day in your sight) ... agreed, from man's perspective "always going to be..." doesn't mean it is so before it's done".

When Paul wrote we are chosen "in Him" before the foundation of the world, it doesn't mean we were "in Him" at that time, just as it doesn't mean we existed at that time. So it would be a correct interpretation to paraphrase that as "we were chosen to be in Him..." Predestined means that God planned for us to be saved (from His wrath). It doesn't mean we were saved before being saved.
Agreed, from man's point of view.


I'm not conflating anything. Plan means it is worked out on paper before anything happens. If a blind person is walking toward a cliff (thinking he's on a secure path), having a plan to redirect him doesn't mean he is out of danger. You have to actually redirect him to get him out of danger. In the same way, God had to actually redirect the life of the elect before they are out of danger. Therefore, we were in danger of the wrath of God prior to redemption being applied.
Agreed, from man's point of view.

Sorry, not trying to give you a hard time. I think we are just looking at it from different angles. You from man's point of view IMO and I from God's point of view (if that is possible to some degree).

Thanks for you patience.
 
Please refrain from saying "you said IMO" and then put words in my mouth that I did not speak. I check on all names I never heard of before to see their background like I do with many different religions.
Well, that's why I put IMO as I acknowledge I could be wrong. My apologies for anytime I have misrepresented you. Please correct me when I do so. It is never my intention to do so.
Aside: It is difficult to address your ideas in a post without stating what I believe them to be ... I use IMO to identify the statement is mine and not necessarily yours so others can know I could be wrong.

Tell me where I erred:
Our contention IMO is when does one become God's sheep.

You say IMO we change into sheep from goats when we are converted. I said this as a conclusion of your statement: "I think that answers the question that no one who walks in unbelief can be His sheep." Since, before one is converted you said one can be a sheep, that leaves only goats". Granted, you never said this directly, but it seems a logical conclusion.

You say IMO Christ died the goats that may someday become sheep. You said that no one who walks in unbelief can be His sheep. Since, before one is converted you said one cannot be a sheep, that leaves only goats". Granted, you never said this directly, but it seems a logical conclusion.

You say IMO that God died in vain for billions of goats. Faith from hearing and billions of people never hear the gospel which is a prerequisite for salvation. We've have previous discussions in which you said God died for everyone it seems logical to conclude that God died for goats and since goats don't go to heaven and if Christ died everyone including those He knew would not have faith, He died for nothing. Correct me if I am wrong.
 
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Nope it applies only to elect while they are enemies and unbelievers. Even as unbelievers the Elect are not under Gods wrath as others are.
Brightfame
The above is the funniest post I've read on this forum.

Know why?
Because it clearly shows the conundrum calvinists are in. It shows how they paint themselves into a corner with no way of escape.
Read what you wrote:

"Even as UNBELIEVERS the elect are not under God's wrath."

IOW, why was it necessary for you to be REGENERATED so that you could then BELIEVE if you were saved anyway...
Even when you didn't believe??
:chin:chin:chin
 
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Well, that's why I put IMO as I acknowledge I could be wrong. My apologies for anytime I have misrepresented you. Please correct me when I do so. It is never my intention to do so.
Aside: It is difficult to address your ideas in a post without stating what I believe them to be ... I use IMO to identify the statement is mine and not necessarily yours so others can know I could be wrong.
Huh?
FF....you DO misrepresent other's statements.
Like free will,,,in my case.
It's annoying.
 
I don't agree that it is part of the definition of the elect. Being predestined to salvation doesn't mean that there is never a time those people are in danger of judgment. The fact that they are eventually saved means they had a need to be saved from some kind of danger, namely the wrath of God.

I don't agree that those passages are not relevant or not "directly relevant" to the elect. The fact that they are written to the churches means that there is real danger, which is heeded only by those instilled with spiritual wisdom.

I'm glad we agree on something here.

It's speculating against clear teaching in the text. It's saying there is no danger when the text says there is.

Ok, "always going to be..." doesn't mean it is so before it's done. When Paul wrote we are chosen "in Him" before the foundation of the world, it doesn't mean we were "in Him" at that time, just as it doesn't mean we existed at that time. So it would be a correct interpretation to paraphrase that as "we were chosen to be in Him..." Predestined means that God planned for us to be saved (from His wrath). It doesn't mean we were saved before being saved.

I'm not conflating anything. Plan means it is worked out on paper before anything happens. If a blind person is walking toward a cliff (thinking he's on a secure path), having a plan to redirect him doesn't mean he is out of danger. You have to actually redirect him to get him out of danger. In the same way, God had to actually redirect the life of the elect before they are out of danger. Therefore, we were in danger of the wrath of God prior to redemption being applied.

But it seems to me that you are actually conflating "assigned" and "applied," as if they mean the same thing, just at different times. How do you know that God has no succession of moments? Nothing in scripture says that, therefore that is conjecture. It is true that God's plan cannot be thwarted, and the elect will surely be saved. It doesn't mean they are already saved from His wrath. Everyone begins in the same place, as unregenerate and unbelieving, as described in Rom. 3:10-18 and Eph. 2:1-3. Therefore, everyone is subject to the wrath of God in that condition.
Hi Tdidymas
Could you confirm for me who the elect are...
 
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