Call No Man Father

[donadams]

What does this mean?
Mary had sin on her, too.
All her ancestors would need to be sinless by RCC logic.

This point, RCC logic fails because RCC isn't Jesus' Church. EVEN if it somehow managed to be, it's certainly not now.

What happened to your faith in Christ and His eternal words? Matt 24:35

Matt 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Jn 8:32 (to His Apostles) And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

Jn 16:13 (to His Apostles) Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism.

Jude 1:3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.


Immaculate conception of Mary!

Mary was created by God without sin!

Gen 3:15 I will put enmities between thee and the woman, and thy seed and her seed: she shall crush thy head, and thou shalt lie in wait for her heel.
(Enmities total war, none of satan’s works found in Her immaculate purity)

Lk 1:28 And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, Mary full of Grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.
(Immaculate purity, full of grace, blessed)

Lk 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
(Mary must have immaculate purity)

Lk 1:47 And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour. (Preserved from all sin in virtue of the merits of the blood of the savior who is Her son)

Lk 1:49 For he that is mighty hath done to me great things; and holy is his name.
(Immaculate conception of Mary and the miraculous conception of Jesus)

Song of Solomon 4:1 Behold, thou art fair, my love; behold, thou art fair; thou hast doves' eyes within thy locks: thy hair is as a flock of goats, that appear from mount Gilead.

Rev 12:1 a woman clothed with the sun.
(Immaculate purity)

Thks

 

[donadams]

Define 'bring forth'.
Does that mean:

good tree can't CREATE bad fruit
good tree can't SPREAD bad fruit
good tree can't CONTAIN and then RELEASE bad fruit
?

I highly doubt it's #3.

I think GOD formed His body.

Jesus is our salvation Lk 2:39
Mary found our salvation Lk 1:30
Consent to our salvation Lk 1:38
Gave birth (brought fourth) Lk 2:7
Thks

 

[donadams]

now youre claiming that mary is a throne.
Who is sitting on her and why????

Sorry Mary’s throne of grace

 

[donadams]

so finally you admit 'hail mary' is just a greeting. NOT evidence that the rcc's dogma on her is "true".

The angelic salutation to his royal queen!
Notice how different that when the angel appears to Zach in Lk 1 he has to be told who the angel
Is but Mary cos of her immaculate conception always beholds God on His throne in heaven and knows His angels! She does not need to be told who he is!

Amen! And glory to God!

 

[donadams]

Eisegesis.

It’s not a queen that wears a crown?

 

[donadams]

so wait, if mary was sinless, by CATHOLIC logic, her ANCESTORS had to be too. <see above>
why make her sinless as adult, not as child? how ad hoc.
So far , 0 evidence she was ever made sinless....

No it is Hod who by the future merits of Christ created her immaculate without original sin
Lk 1:37
Lk 1;49

 

[donadams]

ok then.
take this scenario:

>>
Apostle: Some RCC doctrines are false!
You : <responses here>
<<

Apostles are ordained by existing apostles and sent to proclaim the gospel etc.

 

[donadams]

so wait, if mary was sinless, by CATHOLIC logic, her ANCESTORS had to be too. <see above>
why make her sinless as adult, not as child? how ad hoc.
So far , 0 evidence she was ever made sinless....

Hippolytus “[T]o all generations they [the prophets] have pictured forth the grandest subjects for contemplation and for action. Thus, too, they preached of the advent of God in the flesh to the world, his advent by the spotless and God-bearing (theotokos) Mary in the way of birth and growth” (Discourse on the End of the World 1 [A.D. 217]).

Gregory the Wonderworker “For Luke, in the inspired Gospel narratives, delivers a testimony not to Joseph only, but also to Mary, the Mother of God, and gives this account with reference to the very family and house of David” (Four Homilies 1 [A.D. 262]).

“It is our duty to present to God, like sacrifices, all the festivals and hymnal celebrations; and first of all, [the feast of] the Annunciation to the holy Mother of God, to wit, the salutation made to her by the angel, ‘Hail, full of grace!’” (ibid., 2).

Peter of Alexandria “They came to the church of the most blessed Mother of God, and ever-virgin Mary, which, as we began to say, he had constructed in the western quarter, in a suburb, for a cemetery of the martyrs” (The Genuine Acts of Peter of Alexandria [A.D. 305]).

“We acknowledge the resurrection of the dead, of which Jesus Christ our Lord became the firstling; he bore a body not in appearance but in truth derived from Mary the Mother of God” (Letter to All Non-Egyptian Bishops 12 [A.D. 324]).

Methodius “While the old man [Simeon] was thus exultant, and rejoicing with exceeding great and holy joy, that which had before been spoken of in a figure by the prophet Isaiah, the holy Mother of God now manifestly fulfilled” (Oration on Simeon and Anna 7 [A.D. 305]).

“Hail to you forever, you virgin Mother of God, our unceasing joy, for unto you do I again return. . . . Hail, you fount of the Son’s love for man. . . . Wherefore, we pray you, the most excellent among women, who boast in the confidence of your maternal honors, that you would unceasingly keep us in remembrance. O holy Mother of God, remember us, I say, who make our boast in you, and who in august hymns celebrate your memory, which will ever live, and never fade away” (ibid., 14).

Cyril of Jerusalem “The Father bears witness from heaven to his Son. The Holy Spirit bears witness, coming down bodily in the form of a dove. The archangel Gabriel bears witness, bringing the good tidings to Mary. The Virgin Mother of God bears witness” (Catechetical Lectures 10:19 [A.D. 350]).

Ephraim the Syrian “Though still a virgin she carried a child in her womb, and the handmaid and work of his wisdom became the Mother of God” (Songs of Praise 1:20 [A.D. 351]).

Athanasius “The Word begotten of the Father from on high, inexpressibly, inexplicably, incomprehensibly, and eternally, is he that is born in time here below of the Virgin Mary, the Mother of God” (The Incarnation of the Word of God 8 [A.D. 365]).

Epiphanius of Salamis “Being perfect at the side of the Father and incarnate among us, not in appearance but in truth, he [the Son] reshaped man to perfection in himself from Mary the Mother of God through the Holy Spirit” (The Man Well-Anchored 75 [A.D. 374]).

Ambrose of Milan “The first thing which kindles ardor in learning is the greatness of the teacher. What is greater than the Mother of God? What more glorious than she whom Glory Itself chose?” (The Virgins 2:2[7] [A.D. 377]).

Gregory of Nazianz “If anyone does not agree that holy Mary is Mother of God, he is at odds with the Godhead” (Letter to Cledonius the Priest 101 [A.D. 382]).

Jerome “As to how a virgin became the Mother of God, he [Rufinus] has full knowledge; as to how he himself was born, he knows nothing” (Against Rufinus 2:10 [A.D. 401]).

“Do not marvel at the novelty of the thing, if a Virgin gives birth to God” (Commentaries on Isaiah 3:7:15 [A.D. 409]).

Theodore of Mopsuestia “When, therefore, they ask, ‘Is Mary mother of man or Mother of God?’ we answer, ‘Both!’ The one by the very nature of what was done and the other by relation” (The Incarnation 15 [A.D. 405]).

 

[donadams]

Testimony of the early church in the successors of the apostles! Verified by acts 2:42 acts 1:8

JUSTIN MARTYR
“[Jesus] became man by the Virgin so that the course which was taken by disobedience in the beginning through the agency of the serpent might be also the very course by which it would be put down. Eve, a virgin and undefiled, conceived the word of the serpent and bore disobedience and death. But the Virgin Mary received faith and joy when the angel Gabriel announced to her the glad tidings that the Spirit of the Lord would come upon her and the power of the Most High would overshadow her, for which reason the Holy One being born of her is the Son of God. And she replied ‘Be it done unto me according to your word’ [Luke 1:38]” (Dialogue with Trypho the Jew 100 [A.D. 155]).

IRENAEUS
“Consequently, then, Mary the Virgin is found to be obedient, saying, ‘Behold, O Lord, your handmaid; be it done to me according to your word.’ Eve, however, was disobedient, and, when yet a virgin, she did not obey. Just as she, who was then still a virgin although she had Adam for a husband—for in paradise they were both naked but were not ashamed; for, having been created only a short time, they had no understanding of the procreation of children, and it was necessary that they first come to maturity before beginning to multiply—having become disobedient, was made the cause of death for herself and for the whole human race; so also Mary, betrothed to a man but nevertheless still a virgin, being obedient, was made the cause of salvation for herself and for the whole human race. . . . Thus, the knot of Eve’s disobedience was loosed by the obedience of Mary. What the virgin Eve had bound in unbelief, the Virgin Mary loosed through faith” (Against Heresies 3:22:24 [A.D. 189]).

“The Lord then was manifestly coming to his own things, and was sustaining them by means of that creation that is supported by himself. He was making a recapitulation of that disobedience that had occurred in connection with a tree, through the obedience that was upon a tree [i.e., the cross]. Furthermore, the original deception was to be done away with—the deception by which that virgin Eve (who was already espoused to a man) was unhappily misled. That this was to be overturned was happily announced through means of the truth by the angel to the Virgin Mary (who was also [espoused] to a man). . . . So if Eve disobeyed God, yet Mary was persuaded to be obedient to God. In this way, the Virgin Mary might become the advocate of the virgin Eve. And thus, as the human race fell into bondage to death by means of a virgin, so it is rescued by a virgin. Virginal disobedience has been balanced in the opposite scale by virginal obedience. For in the same way, the sin of the first created man received amendment by the correction of the First-Begotten” (ibid., 5:19:1 [A.D. 189]).
TERTULLIAN
“And again, lest I depart from my argumentation on the name of Adam: Why is Christ called Adam by the apostle [Paul], if as man he was not of that earthly origin? But even reason defends this conclusion, that God recovered his image and likeness by a procedure similar to that in which he had been robbed of it by the devil. It was while Eve was still a virgin that the word of the devil crept in to erect an edifice of death. Likewise through a virgin the Word of God was introduced to set up a structure of life. Thus what had been laid waste in ruin by this sex was by the same sex reestablished in salvation. Eve had believed the serpent; Mary believed Gabriel. That which the one destroyed by believing, the other, by believing, set straight” (The Flesh of Christ 17:4 [A.D. 210].
PSEUDO-MELITO
“If therefore it might come to pass by the power of your grace, it has appeared right to us your servants that, as you, having overcome death, do reign in glory, so you should raise up the body of your Mother and take her with you, rejoicing, into heaven. Then said the Savior [Jesus]: ‘Be it done according to your will’” (The Passing of the Virgin 16:2–17 [A.D. 300]).
EPHRAIM THE SYRIAN
“You alone and your Mother are more beautiful than any others, for there is no blemish in you nor any stains upon your Mother. Who of my children can compare in beauty to these?” (Nisibene Hymns 27:8 [A.D. 361]).
AMBROSE OF MILAN
“Mary’s life should be for you a pictorial image of virginity. Her life is like a mirror reflecting the face of chastity and the form of virtue. Therein you may find a model for your own life . . . showing what to improve, what to imitate, what to hold fast to” (The Virgins 2:2:6 [A.D. 377]).

“The first thing which kindles ardor in learning is the greatness of the teacher. What is greater [to teach by example] than the Mother of God? What more glorious than she whom Glory Itself chose? What more chaste than she who bore a body without contact with another body? For why should I speak of her other virtues? She was a virgin not only in body but also in mind, who stained the sincerity of its disposition by no guile, who was humble in heart, grave in speech, prudent in mind, sparing of words, studious in reading, resting her hope not on uncertain riches, but on the prayer of the poor, intent on work, modest in discourse; wont to seek not man but God as the judge of her thoughts, to injure no one, to have goodwill towards all, to rise up before her elders, not to envy her equals, to avoid boastfulness, to follow reason, to love virtue. When did she pain her parents even by a look? When did she disagree with her neighbors? When did she despise the lowly? When did she avoid the needy?” (ibid., 2:2:7).

“Come, then, and search out your sheep, not through your servants or hired men, but do it yourself. Lift me up bodily and in the flesh, which is fallen in Adam. Lift me up not from Sarah but from Mary, a virgin not only undefiled, but a virgin whom grace had made inviolate, free of every stain of sin” (Commentary on Psalm 118:22–30 [A.D. 387]).
AUGUSTINE
“Our Lord . . . was not averse to males, for he took the form of a male, nor to females, for of a female he was born. Besides, there is a great mystery here: that just as death comes to us through a woman, life is born to us through a woman; that the devil, defeated, would be tormented by each nature, feminine and masculine, as he had taken delight in the defection of both” (Christian Combat 22:24 [A.D. 396]).

“That one woman is both mother and virgin, not in spirit only but even in body. In spirit she is mother, not of our head, who is our Savior himself—of whom all, even she herself, are rightly called children of the bridegroom—but plainly she is the mother of us who are his members, because by love she has cooperated so that the faithful, who are the members of that head, might be born in the Church. In body, indeed, she is the Mother of that very head” (Holy Virginity 6:6 [A.D. 401]).

…

“Having excepted the holy Virgin Mary, concerning whom, on account of the honor of the Lord, I wish to have absolutely no question when treating of sins—for how do we know what abundance of grace for the total overcoming of sin was conferred upon her, who merited to conceive and bear him in whom there was no sin?—so, I say, with the exception of the Virgin, if we could have gathered together all those holy men and women, when they were living here, and had asked them whether they were without sin, what do we suppose would have been their answer?” (Nature and Grace 36:42 [A.D. 415]).
TIMOTHY OF JERUSALEM
“Therefore the Virgin is immortal to this day, seeing that he who had dwelt in her transported her to the regions of her assumption” (Homily on Simeon and Anna [A.D. 400]).
JOHN THE THEOLOGIAN
“[T]he Lord said to his Mother, ‘Let your heart rejoice and be glad, for every favor and every gift has been given to you from my Father in heaven and from me and from the Holy Spirit. Every soul that calls upon your name shall not be ashamed, but shall find mercy and comfort and support and confidence, both in the world that now is and in that which is to come, in the presence of my Father in the heavens’” (The Falling Asleep of Mary [A.D. 400]).

“And from that time forth all knew that the spotless and precious body had been transferred to paradise” (ibid.).
GREGORY OF TOURS
“The course of this life having been completed by blessed Mary, when now she would be called from the world, all the apostles came together from their various regions to her house. And when they had heard that she was about to be taken from the world, they kept watch together with her. And behold, the Lord Jesus came with his angels, and, taking her soul, he gave it over to the angel Michael and withdrew. At daybreak, however, the apostles took up her body on a bier and placed it in a tomb, and they guarded it, expecting the Lord to come. And behold, again the Lord stood by them; the holy body having been received, he commanded that it be taken in a cloud into paradise, where now, rejoined to the soul, [Mary’s body] rejoices with the Lord’s chosen ones and is in the enjoyment of the good of an eternity that will never end” (Eight Books of Miracles 1:4 [A.D. 584]).

“But Mary, the glorious Mother of Christ, who is believed to be a virgin both before and after she bore him, has, as we said above, been translated into paradise, amid the singing of the angelic choirs, whither the Lord preceded her” (ibid., 1:8).

 

[GodsGrace]

I took a guess and said about 90% what people disagree with within many denominataions is not a salvation issuse and is not a problem like general stoeues within the new testament. You have used a salvation issue as an example OSAS but i wasnt talking about that.

Was Mary ever virgin or not. Not really a issue. I dont think the aspotles went around preaching Mary and her story. Many who become Christian and the churches the apostles preached to probably didnt even know Mary or even heard of her.

OSAS is not a salvation issue.
I could believe salvation could be lost and still be saved.
I could believe salvation could not be lost and still be saved.

The only salvation issue in the bible is that we must have faith (believe in God) and follow His ways.

However the OSAS doctrines cannot both be right.
One has to be wrong.
How can we know for sure which one is wrong?

This is an important question...not because if we have the wrong answer we will be lost,
but because we may be "teaching" others wrong doctrine just by talking what we believe to others.

 

[donadams]

Not after rebirth from God's seed, thank God !

What gifts did Adam and Eve have before they sinned, that they lost in the garden ?

Wouldn't that be denial of what the "old man" once wanted ?
As new creatures, we want an entirely different set of things.
Holy things, things approved by God.

Really?

Why must we suffer and pray to avoid sin?

 

[Corn Pop]

OSAS is not a salvation issue.
I could believe salvation could be lost and still be saved.
I could believe salvation could not be lost and still be saved.

The only salvation issue in the bible is that we must have faith (believe in God) and follow His ways.

However the OSAS doctrines cannot both be right.
One has to be wrong.
How can we know for sure which one is wrong?

This is an important question...not because if we have the wrong answer we will be lost,
but because we may be "teaching" others wrong doctrine just by talking what we believe to others.

OSAS makes no sense because one would either have to have always been saved or never saved if God knows the beginning from the end. There is no God saved someone and then decided to change his mind.

 

[GodsGrace]

OSAS makes no sense because one would either have to have always been saved or never saved if God knows the beginning from the end. There is no God saved someone and then decided to change his mind.

Then OSAS DOES make sense to you?
If you are saved at some time in life....
you will always be saved.
Is this what you believe?

 

[Corn Pop]

Then OSAS DOES make sense to you?
If you are saved at some time in life....
you will always be saved.
Is this what you believe?

It makes no sense to me because if someone was saved and then not saved they were never saved to start with, and who is saved only God knows the answer so it's pointless people debating it.

 

[GodsGrace]

It makes no sense to me because if someone was saved and then not saved they were never saved to start with, and who is saved only God knows the answer so it's pointless people debating it.

OK, I don't want to derail this thread too much, but:

That's the whole point!
It makes no sense to YOU,,,but does that make it be THE TRUTH??

And it's very important to know the truth.
If a person is saved,
and believes they could never lose their salvation,
and they continue in a life unworthy of God....

Will they be saved in the end?
Read John 5:28.
I have to leave now, but will be back in the morning.

I think it's VERY important to know this truth....

 

[Hopeful 2]

Really?

Yes, really.

Why must we suffer and pray to avoid sin?

I know of no requirement to suffer.
I do know that those who stop praying lose their connection to that which is holy and right.
They set them selves up for a fall.

 

[Corn Pop]

No one ever called Peter "Father Peter" or Paul "Father Paul" or any apostles by the name Father. I mean no one even called the Christ himself "Father Yeshua" , and he is the King of the Church, the Top G, , yet for some reason the Church calls priests by the name Father. Not even the scriptures refer to any apostles by the name father.

Under Christ everyone is humbled so that's why you only see the words brethren or brothers under Christ and in scripture, there is only 1 Father within Christ's Church and that's God the Father, no other. That's his title and no one else's.

So I'm not sure where it originated from within the Church. And that's the thing, within the Church itself there is only one Father and that is God. So calling Church members within the Church by the title "father' I don't get it nor is that my belief or would I ever call someone by that title. That's just me and my view.

I mean I understand ancestory like Jews or Arabs for example might call Abraham there father because of there linage and it was also a known saying in the early days to refer to someone of family origin through ansetory or genealogy.

But I would not call anyone that's not related to me by the name father.

I would call my dad "Father" as my earthy father or my grandfather because he is a elder family father and its family linage, and God is also "Father" as the heavenly Father and Father of all creation. As Christ is the King of all Kings the Father is the Father of all Fathers.

 

[Corn Pop]

I guess Jesus explains it a bit in John 8 where some people were arguing with him claiming they are Abraham's children and Abraham is there father and they not illegitimate children and the only Father they have is God himself.

And Jesus said he knows they are Abraham's descendants yet if Abraham was there father then they would do the works of Abraham and know Abraham and not be out to try destroy the anointed one and the Christ that Abraham knows and God knows.

So those who argued Abraham was there earthly father and they were the children of Abraham through earthly linage but that was about all.

 

[Rodger]

Really?

Why must we suffer and pray to avoid sin?

We cannot avoid sin as we are sinners by nature.

 

[donadams]

Not after rebirth from God's seed, thank God !

What gifts did Adam and Eve have before they sinned, that they lost in the garden ?

Wouldn't that be denial of what the "old man" once wanted ?
As new creatures, we want an entirely different set of things.
Holy things, things approved by God.

Incorruptible seed is the grace we receive in baptism and it can be lost by sin