Calling Samuel's Spirit, what's it?

[JLB]

Ah I guess you take the 1Peter 3 scriptures to imply Jesus preached between His death and resurrection. If you study the entire section it's about encouraging Christians to stand strong in the face of adversity and they will be delivered as Noah was. Notice the section we're discussing falls between the parenthesis statements

1Pe 3:13-15 KJV And who is he that will harm you, if ye be followers of that which is good?
...
1Pe 4:19 KJV Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.

Jesus preached through Noah in the same way He does through us.

1Pe 1:10-11 KJV Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: (11) Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

2Pe 2:4-5 KJV For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; (5) And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;

I understand why you think Jesus preached while in the Tomb because it's the usual doctrine people hold which comes from the early Apostle's Creed in which someone snuck in " He descended into Hell".

Here's a decent summary study of this corrupted text

And here's a mostly decent synopsis of 1Peter3-4.

I believe Jesus told the thief he would be with Him in Paradise with the declaration "verily I say to you today" .

JLB can you tell me why you use "tartarus" to mean the same as every other usage of "hell" when it's clearly something else ?

I show Tartarus to teach that there are other meanings for hell than Sheol which some take to mean the grave.

Jesus teaches there is everlasting fire associated with hell.

8 If your hand or foot causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you. It is better for you to enter into life lame or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the everlasting fire. 9 And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you. It is better for you to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire. Matthew 18:8-9

Please consider that a Jewish Trash dump is not everlasting fire.


JLB

 

[agua.]

I show Tartarus to teach that there are other meanings for hell than Sheol which some take to mean the grave.

Jesus teaches there is everlasting fire associated with hell.

8 If your hand or foot causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you. It is better for you to enter into life lame or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the everlasting fire. 9 And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you. It is better for you to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire. Matthew 18:8-9

Please consider that a Jewish Trash dump is not everlasting fire.


JLB

Yeah ok JLB I'll consider what you say. I'd separate using tartarus from the description of hell though because it isn't related it seems ( other than most Bibles translating it that way ) and the Bible only mentions the Angels who sinned are there.

2Pe 2:4 LITV For if God did not spare sinning angels, but delivered them to chains of darkness, thrust down into Tartarus, having been kept to judgment;

 

[jonahmano]

12 When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out with a loud voice. And the woman spoke to Saul, saying, "Why have you deceived me? For you are Saul!" 13 And the king said to her, "Do not be afraid. What did you see?" And the woman said to Saul, "I saw a spirit ascending out of the earth." 14 So he said to her, "What is his form?" And she said, "An old man is coming up, and he is covered with a mantle." And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground and bowed down. 15 Now Samuel said to Saul, "Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?" And Saul answered, "I am deeply distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God has departed from me and does not answer me anymore, neither by prophets nor by dreams. Therefore I have called you, that you may reveal to me what I should do." 16 Then Samuel said: "Why then do you ask me, seeing the Lord has departed from you and has become your enemy? 17 And the Lord has done for Himself as He spoke by me. For the Lord has torn the kingdom out of your hand and given it to your neighbor, David. 18 Because you did not obey the voice of the Lord nor execute His fierce wrath upon Amalek, therefore the Lord has done this thing to you this day. 19 Moreover the Lord will also deliver Israel with you into the hand of the Philistines. And tomorrow you and your sons will be with me. The Lord will also deliver the army of Israel into the hand of the Philistines." 1 Samuel 28:12-19

Here is what the scriptures teach us in these verse's -

• the woman saw Samuel
• Now Samuel said to Saul,
• Then Samuel said: "Why then do you ask me, seeing the Lord has departed from you and has become your enemy?

These scripture clearly teach us that Samuel himself was seen by the woman and was speaking to Saul.

Samuel then recalls the Prophecy into account that he had originally spoken to Saul -

• And the Lord has done for Himself as He spoke by me. For the Lord has torn the kingdom out of your hand and given it to your neighbor, David.

Samuel then proceeds to prophecy again to Saul about the coming battle with the Philistines -

• Moreover the Lord will also deliver Israel with you into the hand of the Philistines.
• And tomorrow you and your sons will be with me.

The prophecies came to pass, just as Samuel had said.

For someone to assign all these scriptures to some demon, which the scriptures themselves gives no indication of such is Presumption of the highest order.

JLB

Great that you are very well logically countering aspects from verse 12 but the same argument can be thrown to you starting from


Verse 10 And Saul sware to her by the Lord, saying, As the Lord liveth, there shall no punishment happen to thee for this thing.

Why didn't medium doubt it was Saul when he said there shall be no punishment to her. the medium very well knew only Saul could save her because he was King.


Verse 11 Then said the woman, Whom shall I bring up unto thee? And he said, Bring me up Samuel.

You mean that woman had no problem in calling Prophet Samuel who was a very well known prophet to a strange man who she didn't know as Saul was not recognized in his disguised makeup. If the woman didn't have power to call the spirit of Samuel then she would have objected. Can a medium call the spirit of high profile godly prophet to an unknown person?

Hope you will be agreed to ponder on Verse 10 and verse 11 as interestingly as you pointed out things from verse 12 onwards

 

[JLB]

It's called Abraham's Bosom as Abraham is the father of faith whom is also a sleep in the grave, IE: heart of the earth, waiting for that of Christ return.

The scripture records the conversation between Abraham and the rich man.

The rich man saw and recognized recognized Abraham.

The rich man saw and recognized recognized Lazarus.

The rich man spoke to Abraham.

Abraham spoke to the rich man.



22 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 Then he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.' 25 But Abraham said, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, 'and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. 26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.'


These are some things Jesus taught us about life after a person's body dies, and where hell is and where the place of the saints was.

Hell is a place of torment, as clearly the rich man was not asleep.

If one chooses to reject these words that Jesus taught us, then that is one's choice.


JLB

 

[for_his_glory]

The scripture records the conversation between Abraham and the rich man.

The rich man saw and recognized recognized Abraham.

The rich man saw and recognized recognized Lazarus.

The rich man spoke to Abraham.

Abraham spoke to the rich man.



22 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 Then he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.' 25 But Abraham said, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, 'and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. 26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.'


These are some things Jesus taught us about life after a person's body dies, and where hell is and where the place of the saints was.

Hell is a place of torment, as clearly the rich man was not asleep.

If one chooses to reject these words that Jesus taught us, then that is one's choice.


JLB

This is a fictitious story which illustrates a moral lesson just as in all the parables Jesus used to teach through. You still haven't answered my question of where I can find the word Tartarus in the Bible.

 

[JLB]

This is a fictitious story which illustrates a moral lesson just as in all the parables Jesus used to teach through. You still haven't answered my question of where I can find the word Tartarus in the Bible.

Are you saying that Jesus told us a fictitious story?

The scripture clearly says that Jesus said -

The rich man saw and recognized recognized Abraham.

The rich man saw and recognized recognized Lazarus.

The rich man spoke to Abraham.

Abraham spoke to the rich man.


Why would Jesus say Abraham said these words - But Abraham said, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented.


Are you saying that Abraham didn't say these words?


JLB

 

[for_his_glory]

I forgot to add the meaning of this parable.

Luke 16:19-31 is a parable as the rich man represents the Pharisees and the beggar Lazarus represents the Jewish people who were despised by the Pharisees which repented and became followers of Christ. In living the Pharisees rejected Jesus and in death that would not change.

 

[for_his_glory]

Are you saying that Jesus told us a fictitious story?

The scripture clearly says that Jesus said -

The rich man saw and recognized recognized Abraham.

The rich man saw and recognized recognized Lazarus.

The rich man spoke to Abraham.

Abraham spoke to the rich man.


Why would Jesus say Abraham said these words - But Abraham said, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented.


Are you saying that Abraham didn't say these words?


JLB

JLB do you not know what parables are? No, Abraham did not say this literally as a parable is not literal, but given figuratively.
"Destroy this temple and I will raise it again in three days". was Jesus speaking literally of an actual temple made by hands or was he speaking figuratively of the temple being himself.


Yes, it was Jesus speaking, but to the multitude as in illustrations
Mat 13:1 The same day went Jesus out of the house, and sat by the sea side.
Mat 13:2 And great multitudes were gathered together unto him, so that he went into a ship, and sat; and the whole multitude stood on the shore.
Mat 13:3 And he spake many things unto them in parables, saying, Behold, a sower went forth to sow;

 

[JLB]

JLB do you not know what parables are? No, Abraham did not say this literally as a parable is not literal, but given figuratively.
"Destroy this temple and I will raise it again in three days". was Jesus speaking literally of an actual temple made by hands or was he speaking figuratively of the temple being himself.


Yes, it was Jesus speaking, but to the multitude as in illustrations
Mat 13:1 The same day went Jesus out of the house, and sat by the sea side.
Mat 13:2 And great multitudes were gathered together unto him, so that he went into a ship, and sat; and the whole multitude stood on the shore.
Mat 13:3 And he spake many things unto them in parables, saying, Behold, a sower went forth to sow;

Why are you quoting Matthew 13?

Our discussion involves the words of Jesus in Luke 16.



13 No servant can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or else he will be loyal to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and mammon."

No parable!

14 Now the Pharisees, who were lovers of money, also heard all these things, and they derided Him.15 And He said to them, "You are those who justify yourselves before men, but God knows your hearts. For what is highly esteemed among men is an abomination in the sight of God.

No parable!

16 The law and the prophets were until John. Since that time the kingdom of God has been preached, and everyone is pressing into it.

No parable!

17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one tittle of the law to fail.


No parable!


18 Whoever divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery; and whoever marries her who is divorced from her husband commits adultery.

No parable!



The following is most certainly not a parable, but rather a literal story with literal people with real names, who were in a real literal place.


19 "There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day. 20 But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate, 21 desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.' 25 But Abraham said, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. 26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.' 27 Then he said, 'I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father's house, 28 for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.' 29 Abraham said to him, 'They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.' 30And he said, 'No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.' 31 But he said to him, 'If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.' " Luke 16:13-31

JLB

 

[Butch5]

18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, 19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water. 1 Peter 3:18-20


4 For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment; 5 and did not spare the ancient world, but saved Noah, one of eight people, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood on the world of the ungodly; 2 Peter 2:4-5


Same angels in Tartarus, were the same angels in prison.




8 Therefore He says: "When He ascended on high, He led captivity captive, And gave gifts to men." 9 (Now this, "He ascended"--what does it mean but that He also first descended into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He who descended is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.)

He also first descended into the lower parts of the earth?

This is a reference to Jesus descending down to the heart of the earth.

40 For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Jesus descended down into the lower parts of the earth for three days and nights.



Please show the reference in the scriptures where it refers to Jesus descending to earth at His incarnation.

JLB

Take notice of the order of events in 1 Peter 3. He was made alive and then went an preached to the spirits in prison. Actually, He made a proclamation after His resurrection. Notice verse 22,

22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him. (1Pe 3:22 KJV)

It seems His proclamation was that those spirits in prison were now subject to Him.

 

[Butch5]

Why are you quoting Matthew 13?

Our discussion involves the words of Jesus in Luke 16.



13 No servant can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or else he will be loyal to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and mammon."

No parable!

14 Now the Pharisees, who were lovers of money, also heard all these things, and they derided Him.15 And He said to them, "You are those who justify yourselves before men, but God knows your hearts. For what is highly esteemed among men is an abomination in the sight of God.

No parable!

16 The law and the prophets were until John. Since that time the kingdom of God has been preached, and everyone is pressing into it.

No parable!

17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one tittle of the law to fail.


No parable!

18 Whoever divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery; and whoever marries her who is divorced from her husband commits adultery.

No parable!

The following is most certainly not a parable, but rather a literal story with literal people with real names, who were in a real literal place.


19 "There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day. 20 But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate, 21 desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.' 25 But Abraham said, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. 26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.' 27 Then he said, 'I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father's house, 28 for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.' 29 Abraham said to him, 'They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.' 30And he said, 'No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.' 31 But he said to him, 'If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.' " Luke 16:13-31

JLB

33 Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.
34 All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:
35 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.
36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field. (Mat 13:33-36 KJV)

 

[agua.]

Take notice of the order of events in 1 Peter 3. He was made alive and then went an preached to the spirits in prison. Actually, He made a proclamation after His resurrection. Notice verse 22,

22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him. (1Pe 3:22 KJV)

It seems His proclamation was that those spirits in prison were now subject to Him.

It's interesting Butch that we have 4 different understandings of this passage going here.

1. ( for His Glory ) Jesus preached to sinful Angels from Noah's time after the Cross and before resurrection.
2. ( JLB ) Jesus preached to all pre Cross Saints in Abraham's Bosom after the Cross and before resurrection.
3. ( agua ) Noah preached to the ante antediluvians by the spirit of Jesus.
4. ( Butch) Jesus made proclamation that the spirits in prison are subject to Him after the resurrection.

Wow eh :D

Can you tell me who you say the spirits in prison are/were ?

 

[JLB]

Take notice of the order of events in 1 Peter 3. He was made alive and then went an preached to the spirits in prison. Actually, He made a proclamation after His resurrection. Notice verse 22,

22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him. (1Pe 3:22 KJV)

It seems His proclamation was that those spirits in prison were now subject to Him.

Before I comment on this post, I must ask you a question.

Are you trying to convince me that Jesus' soul was asleep in the Tomb for three days and nights?

Is that the basis for this post?


JLB

 

[Butch5]

It's interesting Butch that we have 4 different understandings of this passage going here.

1. ( for His Glory ) Jesus preached to sinful Angels from Noah's time after the Cross and before resurrection.
2. ( JLB ) Jesus preached to all pre Cross Saints in Abraham's Bosom after the Cross and before resurrection.
3. ( agua ) Noah preached to the ante antediluvians by the spirit of Jesus.
4. ( Butch) Jesus made proclamation that the spirits in prison are subject to Him after the resurrection.

Wow eh :biggrin

Can you tell me who you say the spirits in prison are/were ?

That is interesting. It's my understanding that the Greek text requires that the preaching took place after the resurrection.

 

[Butch5]

Before I comment on this post, I must ask you a question.

Are you trying to convince me that Jesus' soul was asleep in the Tomb for three days and nights?

Is that the basis for this post?


JLB

No, the purpose was to show that the preaching came after the resurrection.

 

[JLB]

It's interesting Butch that we have 4 different understandings of this passage going here.

1. ( for His Glory ) Jesus preached to sinful Angels from Noah's time after the Cross and before resurrection.
2. ( JLB ) Jesus preached to all pre Cross Saints in Abraham's Bosom after the Cross and before resurrection.
3. ( agua ) Noah preached to the ante antediluvians by the spirit of Jesus.
4. ( Butch) Jesus made proclamation that the spirits in prison are subject to Him after the resurrection.

Wow eh :biggrin

Can you tell me who you say the spirits in prison are/were ?

I would be 1 & 2

 

[agua.]

That is interesting. It's my understanding that the Greek text requires that the preaching took place after the resurrection.

I think the context trumps word usage here Butch but since the text indicates the spirits in prison were disobedient in the days of Noah. Who do you say they are/were ?

 

[JLB]

No, the purpose was to show that the preaching came after the resurrection.

What do you believe Jesus was doing for three days and nights in the heart of the earth?

 

[JLB]

I forgot to add the meaning of this parable.

Luke 16:19-31 is a parable as the rich man represents the Pharisees and the beggar Lazarus represents the Jewish people who were despised by the Pharisees which repented and became followers of Christ. In living the Pharisees rejected Jesus and in death that would not change.

The purpose of this literal story was to illustrate the truth of God's Kingdom rather than the false mindset the Pharisee's had that believed; "if you were poor it was because you were cursed", and "if you were rich it was because you were blessed".

Jesus gave this real life example to illustrate the truth that Lazarus, though he was poor, was loved and comforted by Abraham, in the next life, whereas the rich, whom the Pharisee's considered to be blessed was tormented in hell fire, in the next life.

14 Now the Pharisees, who were lovers of money, also heard all these things, and they derided Him. Luke 16:14


JLB

 

[for_his_glory]

Why are you quoting Matthew 13?

Our discussion involves the words of Jesus in Luke 16.



13 No servant can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or else he will be loyal to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and mammon."

No parable!

14 Now the Pharisees, who were lovers of money, also heard all these things, and they derided Him.15 And He said to them, "You are those who justify yourselves before men, but God knows your hearts. For what is highly esteemed among men is an abomination in the sight of God.

No parable!

16 The law and the prophets were until John. Since that time the kingdom of God has been preached, and everyone is pressing into it.

No parable!

17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one tittle of the law to fail.


No parable!

18 Whoever divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery; and whoever marries her who is divorced from her husband commits adultery.

No parable!

The following is most certainly not a parable, but rather a literal story with literal people with real names, who were in a real literal place.


19 "There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day. 20 But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate, 21 desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.' 25 But Abraham said, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. 26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.' 27 Then he said, 'I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father's house, 28 for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.' 29 Abraham said to him, 'They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.' 30And he said, 'No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.' 31 But he said to him, 'If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.' " Luke 16:13-31

JLB

Parable: A short fictitious story which illustrates a moral lesson

Matthew 13:1-3 shows that Jesus was speaking to the multitudes in parables which also included the parable of the rich man and Lazarus in Luke 16: 19-31. Between Matthew and Luke Jesus spoke 32 parables to illustrate his teachings. I would think you would know the difference between fiction and non-fiction.