Calling Samuel's Spirit, what's it?

[JLB]

Parable: A short fictitious story which illustrates a moral lesson

Matthew 13:1-3 shows that Jesus was speaking to the multitudes in parables which also included the parable of the rich man and Lazarus in Luke 16: 19-31. Between Matthew and Luke Jesus spoke 32 parables to illustrate his teachings. I would think you would know the difference between fiction and non-fiction.

Please show us where the parable starts.


13 No servant can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or else he will be loyal to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and mammon."

No parable!

14 Now the Pharisees, who were lovers of money, also heard all these things, and they derided Him.15 And He said to them, "You are those who justify yourselves before men, but God knows your hearts. For what is highly esteemed among men is an abomination in the sight of God.

No parable!

16 The law and the prophets were until John. Since that time the kingdom of God has been preached, and everyone is pressing into it.

No parable!

17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one tittle of the law to fail.


No parable!

18 Whoever divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery; and whoever marries her who is divorced from her husband commits adultery.

No parable!

The following is most certainly not a parable, but rather a literal story with literal people with real names, who were in a real literal place.


19 "There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day. 20 But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate, 21 desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.' 25 But Abraham said, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. 26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.' 27 Then he said, 'I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father's house, 28 for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.' 29 Abraham said to him, 'They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.' 30And he said, 'No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.' 31 But he said to him, 'If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.' " Luke 16:13-31

JLB

 

[Sinthesis]

I forgot to add the meaning of this parable.

Luke 16:19-31 is a parable as the rich man represents the Pharisees and the beggar Lazarus represents the Jewish people who were despised by the Pharisees which repented and became followers of Christ. In living the Pharisees rejected Jesus and in death that would not change.

That is a pretty good, concise interpretation of the parable. Yet the parable was also a prophecy, for even though a 'Lazarus' was brought back (even prior to Jesus' resurrection), rather than heed Lazarus, Moses, or the prophets, the Pharisees plotted Lazarus' murder.

 

[for_his_glory]

Please show us where the parable starts.


13 No servant can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or else he will be loyal to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and mammon."

No parable!

14 Now the Pharisees, who were lovers of money, also heard all these things, and they derided Him.15 And He said to them, "You are those who justify yourselves before men, but God knows your hearts. For what is highly esteemed among men is an abomination in the sight of God.

No parable!

16 The law and the prophets were until John. Since that time the kingdom of God has been preached, and everyone is pressing into it.

No parable!

17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one tittle of the law to fail.


No parable!

18 Whoever divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery; and whoever marries her who is divorced from her husband commits adultery.

No parable!
The following is most certainly not a parable, but rather a literal story with literal people with real names, who were in a real literal place.

19 "There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day. 20 But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate, 21 desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.' 25 But Abraham said, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. 26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.' 27 Then he said, 'I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father's house, 28 for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.' 29 Abraham said to him, 'They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.' 30And he said, 'No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.' 31 But he said to him, 'If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.' " Luke 16:13-31

JLB

Those you posted as not being parables are absolutely part of the parables as Jesus explains all of them in Matthew, Mark and Luke. Why do you make void all the scriptures that say we sleep in the grave/ground until that time of Christ return, Deuteronomy 34:5,6; 2Kings 2:11; 2Chronicles 21:12; John 3:13; John 5:28,29; Acts 2:29; 1Thessalonians 4:13-18

1. Parable of soils - Matthew 13: 1-9; Mark 4:1-20
2. Parable of the wheat and tares - Matthew 13:24-30
3. Parable of the mustard seed - Matthew 13:31, 32; Mark 4:30-34; Luke 13:18, 19
4. Parable of the leaven - Matthew 13:33-35; Luke 13:20, 21
5. Parable of the hidden treasure - Matthew 13:44
6. Parable of the pearl of great price - Matthew 45, 46
7. Parable of the net - Matthew 13:47-50
8. Parable of the householder - Matthew 13:51-53; Matthew 21:33-44
9. Parable of the lost sheep - Matthew 18:11-14; Luke 15:1-7
10. Parable of the labourers - Matthew 20:1-16
11. Parable of the two sons Matthew 21:28-32
12. Parable of the marriage feast - Matthew 22:1-14
13. Parable of the fig tree - Matthew 24:32-35; Mark 13:28-31; Luke 21:29-33
14. Parable of the ten virgins - Matthew 25:1-13
15. Parable of the talents - Matthew 25:14-30
16. Parable of cloth and wine bottles - Mark 2:18-22
17. Parable of the lamp - Mark 4:21-25
18. Parable of the growing seed - Mark 4:26-29
19. Parable of the vineyard owner - Mark 12:1-11; Luke 20:9-18
20. Parable of the the blind leading the blind - Luke 6:39-45
21. Parable of the two fountains - Luke 6:46-49
22. Parable of the the two debtors - Luke 7:40-42
23. Parable of the sower an soils - Luke 8:4-15
24. Parable of the lamp - Luke 8:16-18
25. Parable of the good Samaritan - Luke 10:29-37
26. Parable of the persistent friend - Luke 11:5-10
27. Parable of the good Father - Luke 11:11-13
28. Parable of the lighted candle - Luke 11:33-36
29. Parable of the rich fool - Luke 12:13-21; Luke 16:19-31
30. Parable of the expectant Steward - Luke 12:35-40
31. Parable of the faithful steward - Luke 12:41-48
32. Parable of the ambitious guest - Luke 14:7-14
33. Parable of the great supper - Luke 14:15-24
34. Parable of the lost coin Luke 15:8-10
35. Parable of the lost son - Luke 15:11-32
36. Parable of the unjust servant - Luke 16:1-13
37. Parable of the women and the judge - Luke 18:1-8
38. Parable of the Pharisees and the Publican - Luke 18:9-14

 

[for_his_glory]

That is a pretty good, concise interpretation of the parable. Yet the parable was also a prophecy, for even though a 'Lazarus' was brought back (even prior to Jesus' resurrection), rather than heed Lazarus, Moses, or the prophets, the Pharisees plotted Lazarus' murder.

I don't want to go off topic, but thought I would pass this on to you that there are two Lazarus in scripture. One being the Lazarus that Jesus called out from the tomb whom was the brother of Martha and Mary who lived in Bethany and the one who the Pharisees wanted to put to death, John 12:10,11. The other Lazarus was a poor diseased beggar that died and was laid in the ground/grave whom Jesus mentioned in the parable of Luke 16:19-31.

 

[JLB]

Those you posted as not being parables are absolutely part of the parables as Jesus explains all of them in Matthew, Mark and Luke. Why do you make void all the scriptures that say we sleep in the grave/ground until that time of Christ return, Deuteronomy 34:5,6; 2Kings 2:11; 2Chronicles 21:12; John 3:13; John 5:28,29; Acts 2:29; 1Thessalonians 4:13-18

1. Parable of soils - Matthew 13: 1-9; Mark 4:1-20
2. Parable of the wheat and tares - Matthew 13:24-30
3. Parable of the mustard seed - Matthew 13:31, 32; Mark 4:30-34; Luke 13:18, 19
4. Parable of the leaven - Matthew 13:33-35; Luke 13:20, 21
5. Parable of the hidden treasure - Matthew 13:44
6. Parable of the pearl of great price - Matthew 45, 46
7. Parable of the net - Matthew 13:47-50
8. Parable of the householder - Matthew 13:51-53; Matthew 21:33-44
9. Parable of the lost sheep - Matthew 18:11-14; Luke 15:1-7
10. Parable of the labourers - Matthew 20:1-16
11. Parable of the two sons Matthew 21:28-32
12. Parable of the marriage feast - Matthew 22:1-14
13. Parable of the fig tree - Matthew 24:32-35; Mark 13:28-31; Luke 21:29-33
14. Parable of the ten virgins - Matthew 25:1-13
15. Parable of the talents - Matthew 25:14-30
16. Parable of cloth and wine bottles - Mark 2:18-22
17. Parable of the lamp - Mark 4:21-25
18. Parable of the growing seed - Mark 4:26-29
19. Parable of the vineyard owner - Mark 12:1-11; Luke 20:9-18
20. Parable of the the blind leading the blind - Luke 6:39-45
21. Parable of the two fountains - Luke 6:46-49
22. Parable of the the two debtors - Luke 7:40-42
23. Parable of the sower an soils - Luke 8:4-15
24. Parable of the lamp - Luke 8:16-18
25. Parable of the good Samaritan - Luke 10:29-37
26. Parable of the persistent friend - Luke 11:5-10
27. Parable of the good Father - Luke 11:11-13
28. Parable of the lighted candle - Luke 11:33-36
29. Parable of the rich fool - Luke 12:13-21; Luke 16:19-31
30. Parable of the expectant Steward - Luke 12:35-40
31. Parable of the faithful steward - Luke 12:41-48
32. Parable of the ambitious guest - Luke 14:7-14
33. Parable of the great supper - Luke 14:15-24
34. Parable of the lost coin Luke 15:8-10
35. Parable of the lost son - Luke 15:11-32
36. Parable of the unjust servant - Luke 16:1-13
37. Parable of the women and the judge - Luke 18:1-8
38. Parable of the Pharisees and the Publican - Luke 18:9-14

There are many parables in the bible, by you listing some, that certainly doesn't mean Luke 16:13-31 is a parable, nor does it answer my question.

Jesus used literal names and places, which is not done in His other parables.

What was Jesus doing for three days and nights in the heart of the earth?

JLB

 

[for_his_glory]

Jesus laid three days and nights in the tomb waiting for God to resurrect him. 1Peter 3:19 is not literal as no where in scripture does it say Jesus went to a fire burning hell, but as he lay in the grave his death proved that he had the victory over death as he said in 1Corinthians 15:55 death where is they victory. Those angels that sinned even before Noah are now in their own prison of darkness awaiting that of Gods final judgement as Jesus now has the victory and even demons are subject to his name.

JLB, again I ask you Why do you make void all the scriptures that say we sleep in the grave/ground until that time of Christ return, Deuteronomy 34:5,6; 2Kings 2:11; 2Chronicles 21:12; John 3:13; John 5:28,29; Acts 2:29; 1Thessalonians 4:13-18.

Why do you even make this one verse void, John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Moses, Elijah, Enoch, Abraham, Issac, Jacob and everyone else that has ever died are in the grave/ground asleep waiting for that of Christ return. If we could dig them up we would see they are there. Even those who have died that will stand in Gods great white throne judgement are still in the grave/ground as no one is in the lake of fire yet, Rev 20:14. If you do a deep study on Sheol (Hebrew word for hell/grave) Hades, Gehenna, Tartarus (Greek words for hell/grave) you will see they are all Greek words meaning the grave.

Sheol is the common Hebrew word for grave, or the realm of the dead, and Hades is its exact equivalent in Greek.

Hades is found ten times in the New Testament, and KJV translates hell every time. But neither sheol nor hades has strong connection to the destruction of the wicked.

Revelation 20:14 says that hades (death and hell) will be cast into that lake of fire. There will be no graves or death after Jesus returns and the New Jerusalem is ushered down.

Gehenna was the first century name for the Valley of Hinnom, or Tophet, in Jerusalem, IE: the city dump where garbage of all kinds was thrown for burning or to rot and be consumed.

Tartarus, Greek word for hell, is found only once in the Bible, in 2 Peter 2:4. The meaning is near to that of sheol and hades. These angels are in darkness and awaiting judgment, not experiencing it.

 

[JLB]

Jesus laid three days and nights in the tomb waiting for God to resurrect him. 1Peter 3:19 is not literal as no where in scripture does it say Jesus went to a fire burning hell, but as he lay in the grave his death proved that he had the victory over death as he said in 1Corinthians 15:55 death where is they victory. Those angels that sinned even before Noah are now in their own prison of darkness awaiting that of Gods final judgement as Jesus now has the victory and even demons are subject to his name.

JLB, again I ask you Why do you make void all the scriptures that say we sleep in the grave/ground until that time of Christ return, Deuteronomy 34:5,6; 2Kings 2:11; 2Chronicles 21:12; John 3:13; John 5:28,29; Acts 2:29; 1Thessalonians 4:13-18.

Why do you even make this one verse void, John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Moses, Elijah, Enoch, Abraham, Issac, Jacob and everyone else that has ever died are in the grave/ground asleep waiting for that of Christ return. If we could dig them up we would see they are there. Even those who have died that will stand in Gods great white throne judgement are still in the grave/ground as no one is in the lake of fire yet, Rev 20:14. If you do a deep study on Sheol (Hebrew word for hell/grave) Hades, Gehenna, Tartarus (Greek words for hell/grave) you will see they are all Greek words meaning the grave.

Sheol is the common Hebrew word for grave, or the realm of the dead, and Hades is its exact equivalent in Greek.

Hades is found ten times in the New Testament, and KJV translates hell every time. But neither sheol nor hades has strong connection to the destruction of the wicked.

Revelation 20:14 says that hades (death and hell) will be cast into that lake of fire. There will be no graves or death after Jesus returns and the New Jerusalem is ushered down.

Gehenna was the first century name for the Valley of Hinnom, or Tophet, in Jerusalem, IE: the city dump where garbage of all kinds was thrown for burning or to rot and be consumed.

Tartarus, Greek word for hell, is found only once in the Bible, in 2 Peter 2:4. The meaning is near to that of sheol and hades. These angels are in darkness and awaiting judgment, not experiencing it.

Jesus descended down into the heart of the earth, His body lay in the Tomb.

When we are absent from the body, we are present with the Lord.

I make no scriptures void.

Tartarus is the lowest part of hell, where the spirits who were rebellious in the days of Noah are in prison.

The lowest parts of the earth is a reference to the heart of the earth, not a 6'-0 deep grave.

The teaching of Abraham's Bosom is a literal story that shows us many truths.


JLB

 

[for_his_glory]

JLB you have made mention many times that hell is fire and not the grave/ground. Now if this was true then this would void out that of 2Peter 2:4 where it says chains of darkness as fire would be bright and not be that of darkness. These angels were reserved, who knows where, until the day of judgement.

2Peter 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

Where is this heart of the earth in measurement if not the grave? Is it past 6' down to the very core of the earth?

 

[JLB]

JLB you have made mention many times that hell is fire and not the grave/ground. Now if this was true then this would void out that of 2Peter 2:4 where it says chains of darkness as fire would be bright and not be that of darkness. These angels were reserved, who knows where, until the day of judgement.

2Peter 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

Where is this heart of the earth in measurement if not the grave? Is it past 6' down to the very core of the earth?

The heart of the earth is a reference to the center.

 

[for_his_glory]

JLB, if I am understanding you right you believe the hell that contains the lake of fire is in the center of the earth?

 

[JLB]

JLB, if I am understanding you right you believe the hell that contains the lake of fire is in the center of the earth?

The heart of the earth is the center of the earth.

Jesus descended down to the heart of the earth after He was crucified.

He preached to the spirits inTartarus.

To be absent from the body is to be present with The Lord.

JLB

 

[jeff77]

I heard a sermon recently where the pastor said there is no soul sleep gave scripture that said something about a temporary body for our souls while we wait for the resurrection. I can't think of the verse at the moment but maybe someone else has heard of this?

 

[Butch5]

What do you believe Jesus was doing for three days and nights in the heart of the earth?

He was dead and in the tomb.

 

[Butch5]

I think the context trumps word usage here Butch but since the text indicates the spirits in prison were disobedient in the days of Noah. Who do you say they are/were ?

I'm not sure what you mean by the context trumps word usage. The context is determined by word usage. I believe the spirit in prison are those who, as Peter said were disobedient in the days of Noah.

NKJ 2 Peter 2:1 But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction.
2 And many will follow their destructive ways, because of whom the way of truth will be blasphemed.
3 By covetousness they will exploit you with deceptive words; for a long time their judgment has not been idle, and their destruction does not slumber.
4 For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment;
5 and did not spare the ancient world, but saved Noah, one of eight people, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood on the world of the ungodly;
6 and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes, condemned them to destruction, making them an example to those who afterward would live ungodly;
7 and delivered righteous Lot, who was oppressed by the filthy conduct of the wicked
8 (for that righteous man, dwelling among them, tormented his righteous soul from day to day by seeing and hearing their lawless deeds)--
9 then the Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of temptations and to reserve the unjust under punishment for the day of judgment, (2Pe 2:1-9 NKJ)

I believe it's these angels or spirits that Christ made His proclamation to, that they were now (After His resurrection) subject to Him.

 

[agua.]

I'm not sure what you mean by the context trumps word usage. The context is determined by word usage. I believe the spirit in prison are those who, as Peter said were disobedient in the days of Noah.

NKJ 2 Peter 2:1 But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction.
2 And many will follow their destructive ways, because of whom the way of truth will be blasphemed.
3 By covetousness they will exploit you with deceptive words; for a long time their judgment has not been idle, and their destruction does not slumber.
4 For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment;
5 and did not spare the ancient world, but saved Noah, one of eight people, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood on the world of the ungodly;
6 and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes, condemned them to destruction, making them an example to those who afterward would live ungodly;
7 and delivered righteous Lot, who was oppressed by the filthy conduct of the wicked
8 (for that righteous man, dwelling among them, tormented his righteous soul from day to day by seeing and hearing their lawless deeds)--
9 then the Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of temptations and to reserve the unjust under punishment for the day of judgment, (2Pe 2:1-9 NKJ)

I believe it's these angels or spirits that Christ made His proclamation to, that they were now (After His resurrection) subject to Him.

Ah ok so you say the spirits in prison are the same as for His Glory does and differ with her only in the timing of the preaching. This is more acceptable than the interpretation that suggests only the ante deluvians ( Angels and Believers ) received this preaching imo ( what about those between the flood and the Cross etc ). When I say context trumps word usage I mean if we look at the passage, where the preaching to the spirits in prison is located, it suggests Noah was the subject because of the message. Sometimes we can use words in strange ways to give a message and even use them in incorrect tense etc. I don't get how word usage always determines context.

 

[Sinthesis]

I don't want to go off topic, but thought I would pass this on to you that there are two Lazarus in scripture. One being the Lazarus that Jesus called out from the tomb whom was the brother of Martha and Mary who lived in Bethany and the one who the Pharisees wanted to put to death, John 12:10,11. The other Lazarus was a poor diseased beggar that died and was laid in the ground/grave whom Jesus mentioned in the parable of Luke 16:19-31.

Yep. And anyone who heard Jesus' parable about the afterlife of a Lazarus and a rich man, would have had it come back to mind when Jesus brought a real Lazarus back from Abraham's Bosom.

 

[JLB]

Yep. And anyone who heard Jesus' parable about the afterlife of a Lazarus and a rich man, would have had it come back to mind when Jesus brought a real Lazarus back from Abraham's Bosom.

A real Lazarus back from Abraham's Bosom?

So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. Luke 16:22

Which statement is real in the verse.

The angels carried the beggar to Abraham's Bosom, or that the rich man died and was buried.


If the beggar was not carried by the angels to Abraham's Bosom, why would Jesus say that he was?


JLB

 

[Sinthesis]

A real Lazarus back from Abraham's Bosom?

So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. Luke 16:22

Which statement is real in the verse.

The angels carried the beggar to Abraham's Bosom, or that the rich man died and was buried.


If the beggar was not carried by the angels to Abraham's Bosom, why would Jesus say that he was?


JLB

Yes, Mary and Martha's brother was really brought back from 'Abraham's bosom' by Jesus after the angels took him there. Jesus uses the language of His audiences' preconceptions to illustrate the moral delusion of the Pharisees. Was the real Lazarus a beggar as in the parable? Maybe, but it's not really important. The point is that the Pharisees were given a real Lazarus back from the dead, to whom they could inquire about Jesus' and their own competing interpretations of Moses and the prophets, and the implications of these views in the afterlife. Yet, just as was predicted in the parable, the 'brothers' would not listen to him, but would rather murder Lazarus.

 

[JLB]

Yes, Mary and Martha's brother was really brought back from 'Abraham's bosom' by Jesus after the angels took him there. .

Chapter and verse please.

Please show the chapter and verse where Mary's brother Lazarus was in Abraham's Bosom.


JLB

 

[Sinthesis]

Chapter and verse please.

Please show the chapter and verse where Mary's brother Lazarus was in Abraham's Bosom.


JLB

What? You think Martha and Mary's brother was in the place of torment for the four days he was dead?