- Apr 22, 2011
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Sorry I misread your post #110 and see you are not confusing the two. To much multitasking today, LOL
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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Calling Samuel's Spirit, what's it?
- Thread starter jonahmano
- Start date
Sorry I misread your post #110 and see you are not confusing the two. To much multitasking today, LOL
- Apr 22, 2011
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1 Sam 28:12 And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice: and the woman spake to Saul, saying, Why hast thou deceived me? for thou art Saul.
I would think that the familiar spirit told her it was Saul when she saw him come up from the ground. Scripture does not specify in full detail, but it could only be the familiar spirit exposing Saul in disguise.
- Jul 13, 2012
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12 When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out with a loud voice. And the woman spoke to Saul, saying, "Why have you deceived me? For you are Saul!" 13 And the king said to her, "Do not be afraid. What did you see?" And the woman said to Saul, "I saw a spirit ascending out of the earth." 1 Samuel 28:12-13
The woman was clearly afraid at what she saw.
The woman cried out because of what she saw.
What she saw caused her to cry out.
She was familiar with seeing a her spirit.
She was not familiar with what she saw.
The scripture plainly states she saw Samuel, and when she saw Samuel, she cried out.
JLB
- Thread starter
- #124
Difficult to agree with you on this? You are saying that she was surprised to see Samuel's Spirit but If she was not able to call Samuel's spirit then she wouldn't have agreed to it in the first place. Your argument is getting weaker only because you don't have answers for the preceding verses which I quoted in my previous post which you neglected -- Why the woman agreed to call Samuel's Spirit as the woman very well knows who Samuel was. Second how would the woman agree that the man in disguise would save her life from the king when he promised that there won't be any harm to her. So taking things into consideration what for_his_glory is stating is more convincing
- Jul 13, 2012
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The medium was expecting to see something other than what she saw.
The medium expected to see what she always saw; a familiar spirit, posing as a dead relative.
What she saw was Samuel instead, and was startled at this, and cried out in a loud voice.
12 When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out with a loud voice...
This scripture teaches us that the woman saw Samuel.
Nothing will change what this scripture teaches!
A person would have to add or take away from what this scripture teaches to have it teach something else.
15 Now Samuel said to Saul, "Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?"
16 Then Samuel said: "Why then do you ask me, seeing the Lord has departed from you and has become your enemy?
Where in these verses does it say the woman saw a familiar spirit ?
JLB
Butch5
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- Jul 16, 2012
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Not only that but the argument that it was actually Samuel has as it's premise that Samuel, if a ghost, would obey a demon or demon possessed woman. Saul stated that God would not talk to him, yet the argument assumes that Samuel, contrary to what God said, talks to Saul.
- Apr 22, 2011
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1Sa 28:7 Then said Saul unto his servants, Seek me a woman that hath a familiar spirit, that I may go to her, and enquire of her. And his servants said to him, Behold, there is a woman that hath a familiar spirit at Endor.
A familiar spirit is just that of being familiar as in taking on the form of another person whether dead or alive that we would recognize.
1Sa 28:12 And when the woman saw Samuel she cried with a loud voice and the woman spake to Saul saying Why hast thou deceived me for thou art Saul.
In vs. 12 take out the commas and question mark as they were added in the English grammar and read it all together. This wasn't the first time this women used her familiar spirit so she knew it could take on any form so she would not be afraid of whatever form it took. When she saw the form of Samuel she then recognized it was Saul in disguise. Saul never verified it was Samuel as he had his head bowed to the ground and never looked up, but only recognized it to be Samuel by how the women described the form.
Like Butch said, would Samuel, who was an obedient servant of God, obey the voice of a demon. I don't think so. Only God can raise the dead from the grave. How would Samuel know the future events that was spoken to Saul of those things that were about to happen.
- Apr 22, 2011
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Good point Butch
- Apr 22, 2011
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Do you think this is the first time this women used her familiar spirit! She knew it could take on any form f man so why would she be startled that she saw the form od Samuel when she was the one who called him up by using her familiar spirit. That makes no sense. She didn't see a familiar spirit, she used a familiar spirit. It was that familiar spirit that took on the form of Samuel.
- Apr 22, 2011
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where in verse 12 does it say she was afraid. Crying out means to make a proclamation. Ever hear of Paul Revere a Town Crier in the old days who went about the town proclaiming, the English are coming, the English are coming. All it says here is that the women cried out, but never says because she was afraid. She cried out to Saul as a proclamation of recognizing who he was.
Deborah13
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- Nov 30, 2012
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OK, now I see where you are coming from. I don't agree but I understand.
So let's sort something else out with this if we can.
Do evil spirits know the future?
I do not believe they do. satan did not know the future. he thought he could destroy Jesus by using Judas to betray Jesus.
The evil spirits that asked Jesus to send them into the swine didn't know their fate being in the swine.
Why do you think evil spirits know the future?
Butch5
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Hi For His glory,
There are several points like that that sometimes get overlooked. There are quite few in the rich man and Lazarus passage.
Deborah13
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1Sa 28:13 And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth.
1Sa 28:14 And he said unto her, What form is he of? [what does he look like] And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself.
So what were these 'gods' that the woman saw and Saul asked what one of these gods, that she said was Samuel, look like?
"There appears much solemnity in God's permitting the soul of a departed prophet to come as a witness from heaven, to confirm the word he had spoken on earth." Matthew Henry
http://biblehub.com/commentaries/mhc/1_samuel/28.htm
"5. I believe that the woman of En-dor had no power over Samuel; and that no incantation can avail over any departed saint of God, nor indeed over any human disembodied spirit.
6. I believe Samuel did actually appear to Saul; and that he was sent by the especial mercy of God to warn this infatuated king of his approaching death, that he might have an opportunity to make his peace with his Maker.
7. I believe that the woman found, from the appearances, that her real or pretended charms had no effect; and that what now took place came from a totally different disposition of things from those with which she was conversant.
8. I believe that direct, circumstantial, and unequivocal oracles were now delivered concerning things which neither human nor diabolical wisdom could foresee or penetrate; that the defeat of the Israelites, and the death of Saul and his three sons on the following day, were matters which, from their nature, could only be known to God himself; and that no demon or bad spirit could be employed in such a transaction." Adam Clarke
http://biblehub.com/commentaries/clarke/1_samuel/28.htm
1Sa 28:14 And he said unto her, What form is he of? [what does he look like] And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself.
So what were these 'gods' that the woman saw and Saul asked what one of these gods, that she said was Samuel, look like?
"There appears much solemnity in God's permitting the soul of a departed prophet to come as a witness from heaven, to confirm the word he had spoken on earth." Matthew Henry
http://biblehub.com/commentaries/mhc/1_samuel/28.htm
"5. I believe that the woman of En-dor had no power over Samuel; and that no incantation can avail over any departed saint of God, nor indeed over any human disembodied spirit.
6. I believe Samuel did actually appear to Saul; and that he was sent by the especial mercy of God to warn this infatuated king of his approaching death, that he might have an opportunity to make his peace with his Maker.
7. I believe that the woman found, from the appearances, that her real or pretended charms had no effect; and that what now took place came from a totally different disposition of things from those with which she was conversant.
8. I believe that direct, circumstantial, and unequivocal oracles were now delivered concerning things which neither human nor diabolical wisdom could foresee or penetrate; that the defeat of the Israelites, and the death of Saul and his three sons on the following day, were matters which, from their nature, could only be known to God himself; and that no demon or bad spirit could be employed in such a transaction." Adam Clarke
http://biblehub.com/commentaries/clarke/1_samuel/28.htm
Butch5
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The argument that Samuel's ghost (for lack of a better word) appeared to the woman assumes it's premise. The argument starts with the premise that man has a ghost but the argument makes not effort to prove that as fact. The argument starts from a false premise and goes on to conclude that it was Samuel. While a false premise does not necessarily lead to a false conclusion the conclusion doesn't prove the premise.
Butch5
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Actually, I think much of mainstream Christianity holds to the immortal soul doctrine.
- Apr 22, 2011
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Just as God knows his own so does Satan know who is his own. Satan knew Jesus would never be his, but only perceived he could put Jesus to death. The familiar spirit foretold to Saul what would happen as it was a prediction to that of what Saul told him in verses 15-18. Sometimes we can predict the outcome of certain situations by that of the circumstances that surround it. This is how the familiar spirit predicted Saul;s demise.
- Apr 22, 2011
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That's why it is so important to read word by word and not sentence by sentence or chapter by chapter. I learned that a long time ago.
Sinthesis
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- Feb 23, 2009
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I take it that the medium was a fraud, and she knew she was a fraud with no connection whatsoever to a supernatural world, but made her living preying on the gullible. Saul was desperate enough to turn to her, and nobody was more surprised at an actual supernatural experience than the woman was. For a brief moment God gave Samual's soul a form that he might communicate a message to Saul. The message was in keeping with the spirit that had led Samual throughout his life.
- Apr 22, 2011
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I have much against what Matthew Henry comments on as the same with Dr. H.L. Willmington as even Willmington says right out front in his Guide to the Bible that there are mistakes made in it and he takes total responsibility for them. Why write a guide if there are mistakes in it. Henry says God allowed the soul of Samuel to arise, but as scripture says when we die that very soul/spirit/breath goes back to God. Did God give that breath back to Samuel? I would think not. Since God departed and abandoned Saul and would not answer him no more even by prophets or dreams God left Saul to his own fate being departed from God forever. God never gave him a second chance by raising Samuel from the grave.