Calling Samuel's Spirit, what's it?

[Butch5]

That's why it is so important to read word by word and not sentence by sentence or chapter by chapter. I learned that a long time ago.

I agree. There is also the problem of our presuppositions that we bring to the text.

 

[jonahmano]

The argument that Samuel's ghost (for lack of a better word) appeared to the woman assumes it's premise. The argument starts with the premise that man has a ghost but the argument makes not effort to prove that as fact. The argument starts from a false premise and goes on to conclude that it was Samuel. While a false premise does not necessarily lead to a false conclusion the conclusion doesn't prove the premise.

How do you say that premise was false. I can counter you with just one preceding verse before the witch calling Samuel calling incident.

And when Saul enquired of the Lord, the Lord answered him not, neither by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by prophets.

By the above verse it can be assumed that Lord would not allow Prophet Samuel to appear before the witch. There isn't one instance in the old testament where people with demons inside them were delivered. The driving out of demons was first introduced by Jesus Christ and then being continued by His disciples (by the power of the Holy Ghost) till this date. So the theory of an evil spirit appearing for Samuel can't be brushed off.

 

[Butch5]

How do you say that premise was false. I can counter you with just one preceding verse before the witch calling Samuel calling incident.

And when Saul enquired of the Lord, the Lord answered him not, neither by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by prophets.

By the above verse it can be assumed that Lord would not allow Prophet Samuel to appear before the witch. There isn't one instance in the old testament where people with demons inside them were delivered. The driving out of demons was first introduced by Jesus Christ and then being continued by His disciples (by the power of the Holy Ghost) till this date. So the theory of an evil spirit appearing for Samuel can't be brushed off.

Hi jonahmano,

It's not about countering me it's about harmonizing the Scriptures. The premise that man has a ghost/disembodied consciousness that lives on after the body dies is a false premise. I am actually in agreement with you that it was an evil spirit.

 

[for_his_glory]

Which "mainstreamish" denomination can i walk into and hear the opposite of JLBs position as accepted doctrine?

There is only one doctrine and that is the pure teachings of Christ as we read and study the word of God by that of Gods Holy Spirit in whom teaches us all things. It's religion that likes to twist that doctrine into their own socially acceptable word as the ear likes to be tickled with a feel good message, but yet the very soul lacks that of knowledge.

 

[jonahmano]

Hi jonahmano,

It's not about countering me it's about harmonizing the Scriptures. The premise that man has a ghost/disembodied consciousness that lives on after the body dies is a false premise. I am actually in agreement with you that it was an evil spirit.

I never said that a ghost would live in the body after the person dies. We know that how Jesus described that when an evil Spirit goes out of a person and how it returns bringing seven others stronger than it making the person worse. So the spirits aren't going anywhere. What I presumed is that evil spirit residing in Samuel might have appeared when the witch called it.

 

[Northman]

Actually, I think much of mainstream Christianity holds to the immortal soul doctrine.

Oh i hear that, mainly meant what the start of the thread was about. The part about what the bible says is samuel speaking yet a few people saying that its anything but samuel.

I know you guys get lots of variety down there but ive never heard this one before i visited this site. More wierd is that its not even treated as even remotely dangerous ground. Calling something God has allowed...well...bluntly...satanic.

 

[Deborah13]

Just as God knows his own so does Satan know who is his own. Satan knew Jesus would never be his, but only perceived he could put Jesus to death. The familiar spirit foretold to Saul what would happen as it was a prediction to that of what Saul told him in verses 15-18. Sometimes we can predict the outcome of certain situations by that of the circumstances that surround it. This is how the familiar spirit predicted Saul;s demise.

Yep, that is what I said, satan thought (perceived) that he could kill Jesus, he didn't Know anything, and he was wrong about it. he didn't succeed in killing Jesus, did he?
The demons asked to be put into the swine, they didn't Know what would happen to them. Oppss....
Demonics do not Know the future.

So what you are saying is that the familiar spirit made a detailed Guess based on two bits of knowledge it got from Saul and was 100% accurate in that guess. OK

 

[jonahmano]

Yep, that is what I said, satan thought (perceived) that he could kill Jesus, he didn't Know anything, and he was wrong about it. he didn't succeed in killing Jesus, did he?
The demons asked to be put into the swine, they didn't Know what would happen to them. Oppss....
Demonics do not Know the future.

So what you are saying is that the familiar spirit made a detailed Guess based on two bits of knowledge it got from Saul and was 100% accurate in that guess. OK

We know that in witchcraft, witches or the witch doctors call the spirit of a dead person and get all the details of the dead person and that spirit is an evil spirit. So your question is how the evil spirit knew the future. Can't it be presumed this way - Prophet Samuel knew the future of King Saul and the evil spirit which was residing in Samuel was knowing future of Samuel and the same evil spirit spelled out King Saul's destiny.

 

[Deborah13]

I take it that the medium was a fraud, and she knew she was a fraud with no connection whatsoever to a supernatural world, but made her living preying on the gullible. Saul was desperate enough to turn to her, and nobody was more surprised at an actual supernatural experience than the woman was. For a brief moment God gave Samual's soul a form that he might communicate a message to Saul. The message was in keeping with the spirit that had led Samual throughout his life.

Now that I could go with.
Because it was a man and the woman herself that told Saul she had a familiar spirit. There is no other witness in scripture that says she actually did.

 

[Deborah13]

We know that in witchcraft, witches or the witch doctors call the spirit of a dead person and get all the details of the dead person and that spirit is an evil spirit. So your question is how the evil spirit knew the future. Can't it be presumed this way - Prophet Samuel knew the future of King Saul and the evil spirit which was residing in Samuel was knowing future of Samuel and the same evil spirit spelled out King Saul's destiny.

Samuel was a child of God ! He didn't have any evil spirit residing in him.

God controls the dead, not witch doctors.

 

[jonahmano]

Samuel was a child of God ! He didn't have any evil spirit residing in him.

the church of God is also a child of God and how can you guarantee that they don't have evil spirits. How can you guarantee that you don't have an evil spirit in you? King Saul was also an anointed child God but he had an evil spirit going and coming.

1 Samuel 16:23 And it came to pass, when the evil spirit from God was upon Saul, that David took an harp, and played with his hand: so Saul was refreshed, and was well, and the evil spirit departed from him.

 

[Butch5]

I never said that a ghost would live in the body after the person dies. We know that how Jesus described that when an evil Spirit goes out of a person and how it returns bringing seven others stronger than it making the person worse. So the spirits aren't going anywhere. What I presumed is that evil spirit residing in Samuel might have appeared when the witch called it.

Hi jonahmano,

Let's not confuse the terms. By ghost, I do not mean spirit. The immortal soul doctrine claims that there is something in man that lives on after the body dies. For lack of a better word I called that a ghost. I cannot call it a spirit because it is not a spirit and I cannot call it a soul because it is not a soul, even though both of those terms are used by those who claim the doctrine. However, neither term, spirit nor soul, is used in the Scriptures to describe a disembodied consciousness.

I didn't say you said anything, I was simply making a point about the false premise that man has a ghost/disembodied consciousness.

 

[Butch5]

Oh i hear that, mainly meant what the start of the thread was about. The part about what the bible says is samuel speaking yet a few people saying that its anything but samuel.

I know you guys get lots of variety down there but ive never heard this one before i visited this site. More wierd is that its not even treated as even remotely dangerous ground. Calling something God has allowed...well...bluntly...satanic.

Hi Northman,

Are you saying that you believe it was actually Samuel?

 

[jonahmano]

Hi jonahmano,

Let's not confuse the terms. By ghost, I do not mean spirit. The immortal soul doctrine claims that there is something in man that lives on after the body dies. For lack of a better word I called that a ghost. I cannot call it a spirit because it is not a spirit and I cannot call it a soul because it is not a soul, even though both of those terms are used by those who claim the doctrine. However, neither term, spirit nor soul, is used in the Scriptures to describe a disembodied consciousness.

I didn't say you said anything, I was simply making a point about the false premise that man has a ghost/disembodied consciousness.

I don't know about immortal doctrine. If you get into the first page then you will know what I really meant when Samuel appeared to the woman. Let take this debate in that direction. A new thread can be started to discuss about the doctrine of immortal soul

 

[Deborah13]

the church of God is also a child of God and how can you guarantee that they don't have evil spirits. How can you guarantee that you don't have an evil spirit in you? King Saul was also an anointed child God but he had an evil spirit going and coming.

1 Samuel 16:23 And it came to pass, when the evil spirit from God was upon Saul, that David took an harp, and played with his hand: so Saul was refreshed, and was well, and the evil spirit departed from him.

http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/Lexicon/Lexicon.cfm?strongs=H7451&t=KJV

evil does not always mean demonic. Look at the definition in the Hebrew at this link.

 

[Butch5]

I don't know about immortal doctrine. If you get into the first page then you will know what I really meant when Samuel appeared to the woman. Let take this debate in that direction. A new thread can be started to discuss about the doctrine of immortal soul

Hi Jonahmano,

I'll have to look and see what you posted there. Ok, I don't believe that it was an evil spirit in Samuel, I believe it was an evil spirit claiming to be Samuel. The woman said she saw "gods" coming up out of the earth. In both the old and new testaments "gods" are said to be demons.

 

[Northman]

Hi Northman,

Are you saying that you believe it was actually Samuel?

Yes

 

[gr8grace3]

I believe it was Samuel and the woman is our biggest clue.

1: A subtle indication is the way "woman" is used in these particular verses.

In 28:11 the woman is הָֽאִשָּׁ֔ה......which refers to the witch of endor or a female servant of a demon.

A subtle change comes in 28:21, the woman is now הָֽאִשָּׁה֙......which is a respectful term for "woman"

2: In the middle of the meeting the woman "sees" clearly that it is Saul. The demon is no longer blinding her. The Demon is no longer controlling her, why? She became a believer because she saw the power of God and the Demon had to leave.

3: Look what the woman does after the meeting.

20Then Saul immediately fell full length upon the ground and was very afraid because of the words of Samuel; also there was no strength in him, for he had eaten no food all day and all night. 21The woman came to Saul and saw that he was terrified, and said to him, “Behold, your maidservant has obeyed you, and I have taken my life in my hand and have listened to your words which you spoke to me. 22“So now also, please listen to the voice of your maidservant, and let me set a piece of bread before you that you may eat and have strength when you go on your way.” 23But he refused and said, “I will not eat.” However, his servants together with the woman urged him, and he listened to them. So he arose from the ground and sat on the bed. 24The woman had a fattened calf in the house, and she quickly slaughtered it(Christ); and she took flour, kneaded it and baked unleavened bread from it. 25She brought it before Saul and his servants, and they ate. Then they arose and went away that night.

She went from the "witch" to Sauls maidservant. And Prepared Sauls "last supper."

I believe this was all Gods Grace, the woman Got saved and Saul had His last chance to see this Grace and make the choice to return.

Saul Died the sin unto death for reversionistic believers. He is not in the Lake of fire. He chose not to live in Gods plan and God took him home so someone else could do His job God had planned for Him.

 

[agua.]

Hi Jonahmano,

I'll have to look and see what you posted there. Ok, I don't believe that it was an evil spirit in Samuel, I believe it was an evil spirit claiming to be Samuel. The woman said she saw "gods" coming up out of the earth. In both the old and new testaments "gods" are said to be demons.

I think it's interesting that Yahweh doesn't approve of witchcraft and Saul knew this very well and yet the event produced accurate details of Saul's ( and his sons ) death. Is it possible the spirit that appeared to Saul was sent by God as per 1Kings22:22 etc the only difference being that this evil spirit posing as Samuel told the truth ? It would be ironic that the totally fallen Saul would discover his fate through the very means he was forbidden esp when he was seeking consolation.

1Ki 22:22-23 KJV And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so. (23) Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee.

 

[Butch5]

I think it's interesting that Yahweh doesn't approve of witchcraft and Saul knew this very well and yet the event produced accurate details of Saul's ( and his sons ) death. Is it possible the spirit that appeared to Saul was sent by God as per 1Kings22:22 etc the only difference being that this evil spirit posing as Samuel told the truth ? It would be ironic that the totally fallen Saul would discover his fate through the very means he was forbidden esp when he was seeking consolation.

1Ki 22:22-23 KJV And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so. (23) Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee.

Hi Agua,

As I understand it Saul didn't die the next day but rather 2 or 3 days later.