can a HEATHEN be saved ?

[stovebolts]

Hi Stovebolts

It isn't clear to me at least, what you have in mind with the above passage from Matt.10. However, on the surface, I would understand that anyone who so choses can do what the passage implies.

I'm just trying to wrap my mind around where somebody draws the line. I mean, some people say that all denominations except XYand Z are going to hell and other say all denominations except my denominations are going to hell. Each denomination has a line the delineates weather somebody is "in" the body of Christ or "out" of the Body of Christ.

I'm not out to argue, I'm just curios is all. The line I draw is a little looser than yours. So I'm curios what your line, or rather, what your criteria is for who's "in" and who's "out".

My day is coming to an end soon, and I don't anticipate too much time online again until next Friday. But I will read it.

Thanks for your time.

 

[Webb]

Hi Stovebolts

One rule which seems fair, logical and above all scriptural to me is Eph.1:3. All spiritural blessings are to be found in Christ. Therefore, none are to be found out of Christ. One in Christ has advantage of all spiritual blessings of which one of course is salvation. I know of only one thing which brings us into Christ that we may enjoy such blessings.

I may not be able to return to the pc soon as I am having car problems and must attend to that. God bless.

 

[stovebolts]

You have just qualified my earlier rant. The church is more focused on believing than doing. We must "believe" a certain list of doctrines in order to be saved. Balderdash.

I am not focusing on one or the other. Both believing and doing have to be taken into account; we cannot sacrifice believing on the altar of doing. If believing in certain things has nothing to do with salvation, then we do not need Scripture at all. We could believe what we want and still be saved.

I'm really not sure how a Christian can say that believing certain doctrines are not necessary for salvation. These beliefs are what define Christianity and what set apart Christianity from every other belief system. They are what determine a false teacher and false prophet from those who are true.

Joh 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up,
Joh 3:15 that whoever believes in him may have eternal life.
Joh 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
Joh 3:17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Joh 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. (ESV)

Rom 4:22 That is why his faith was "counted to him as righteousness."
Rom 4:23 But the words "it was counted to him" were not written for his sake alone,
Rom 4:24 but for ours also. It will be counted to us who believe in him who raised from the dead Jesus our Lord,
Rom 4:25 who was delivered up for our trespasses and raised for our justification. (ESV)

Rom 10:9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.
Rom 10:11 For the Scripture says, "Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame."
Rom 10:12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him.
Rom 10:13 For "everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." (ESV)

1Co 1:21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe.
1Co 1:22 For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom,
1Co 1:23 but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles,
1Co 1:24 but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. (ESV)

Gal 1:6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel—
Gal 1:7 not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ.
Gal 1:8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed.
Gal 1:9 As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed. (ESV)

I think you and I are completely out of sync Duane. Your not hearing what I'm writing. Doctrines don't and won't save anyone. Doctrines don't have the power to save. The only thing that saves us is Grace, and the good news (gospel) is that Christ died on the cross for our sins.

Somebody can have all the right answers, and when that day comes, Jesus can say, "Away from me, I never knew you". My point is that believing certain doctrines isn't what saves anyone. Salvation is wholistic. It's body, soul and spirit and yes, Jesus still saves people from divorce, drug addiction, pornography and even homosexuality and that salvation has eternal implications.

Matthew 7:21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

I'm not sure why you would want to use this verse as the focus is on those who were doing yet didn't belong to Jesus.

But more than that, the context must be looked at:

Mat 7:13 "Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many.
Mat 7:14 For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few.
Mat 7:15 "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves.
Mat 7:16 You will recognize them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? (ESV)

So we see that few find the way to life compared to the many who go the way of destruction. But more than that, vss 15 and 16 make it clear that Jesus is speaking of false prophets in verse 21--those who do things in his name but have not put their faith in him.

If you want to look at the context, go back and start at Chapter 5 and finish it at Chapter 7. Jesus is talking about the way.. He's properly interpreting Torah to put flesh around the commandments. He's talking about how to live the way God intended us to live and that is the fruit we bear. Living the life of Christ is hard, it's not easy. It goes against our sinful nature and few can muster the courage to do the right thing at the right time. His warning about false prophets ends with being a fruit inspector. Go back and start reading chapter 5 and discern it. We'll know the false prophets by their fruit. Why? because it shows in what they DO... Jesus was very interested in what people do and even said somewhere that if they aint against him, then they're for him. But I suppose we'd want to see the context around that one too.

Anyway, I'm going to think we're on the same page here?

Or how about this verse?

James 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

And again we must consider the larger context:

Jas 1:22 But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves. (ESV)

James is not speaking against belief in 2:19 but faith without works.

Exactly, and that was my point all along. I do hope we're starting to sync up. Belief in and of itself doesn't save us. Yes, what we believe is important, but it has to be lived out. How in the world do you live out and put flesh around the doctrine of the trinity etc? Are you starting to see what I'm talking about yet?

Jesus was talking to Jews who already believed in YHVH. Regardless, I've already addressed Jesus being the truth. Everyone has access to the truth even if they don't fully articulate from where it comes from.

The OP is concerned with those who have not heard of YHVH or Jesus.

There is nothing in John 14:6 to suggest that Jesus is the only way to the Father just for Jews. Such a statement should be seen as universal--"I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." (ESV)

I brought up the fact that they heard of God to make the point that this crowd already heard of God and Jesus. They had the choice to believe or not. I origninally started this out talking about people who never heard of God or Jesus but that's not what you wanted to talk about, or you think that somebody that has never heard of the name of Jesus is going to hell. I can't really tell what you believe about this Duane because your so focused on "believing" that I haven't heard you say anything about those who have never heard of God or Jesus. Anyway...

And even Pilot asked, "What is truth" didn't he? Yet he allowed an innocent man to die. He caved into pressure. I ask you, was that truth even though he used the disclaimer, "His blood be on your hands". The truth is, the Bible gives us many examples of people sticking up for what is right. We see two women's names in Exodus 1 who are not Hebrew and Pharaoh tells them to kill the children of the Hebrews and they don't. Instead they do what's right and stay to what is truth. They risk their own lives for the lives of others because they understand the truth of the matter. Tell me, did these two women know the truth and did their actions bear out the truth? I say yes. If Jesus is the truth, then I'd say they knew Jesus even before Jesus was born. So yes, it is a universal saying. It is not a static idea.

Or better yet... lets open up this can of worms. Do you think all Mormons and Jehovah Witnesses will burn in hell, every one of htem because of their difference in belief to orthodox Christianity. My vote is No, we will see many of them in Heaven.

I say yes, most will spend eternity apart from God. I'm not sure how you can justify such an answer towards false teachers and false prophets, for whom Scripture has some extremely serious warnings.

Let's sit here for a moment. You said "most". Tell me, what's the caveat for those who don't burn in hell since it will be the minority that belong to the Mormon or Jehovah Witness church? I'm really curios now.

It simply cannot be the case that one group can claim that Jesus is a created being, a former angel, and another group can claim that he is one of many gods which are the result of sexual relations between the Father and his spirit wife (who were also both products of spirit parents back into an infinite regression), and we do not have to take that into any sort of consideration.

What your talking about has been around for 2,000 years and much of it is addressed in our NT if you do a little historical research so it's already been brought into consideration. We should follow suit with what we know, not what "they" believe. The truth will come out and we should defend these truths, but we should do it in love because their distortions have nothing to do with what Christ did on the Cross. Tell me though, earlier you said "Most". Why not all?

John 3 states that believing in who Jesus is is central to salvation. We simply cannot believe whatever we want about him and expect to spend eternity with him.

I think it's pretty clear.

19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20 Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed. 21 But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God.

I take this as a universal truth.

 

[stovebolts]

Hi Stovebolts

One rule which seems fair, logical and above all scriptural to me is Eph.1:3. All spiritural blessings are to be found in Christ. Therefore, none are to be found out of Christ. One in Christ has advantage of all spiritual blessings of which one of course is salvation. I know of only one thing which brings us into Christ that we may enjoy such blessings.

I may not be able to return to the pc soon as I am having car problems and must attend to that. God bless.

Thanks for your reply and I hope it's nothing serious with your car.

I understand your thought on Eph 1:3, but I'm reminded of a line is Spiderman that goes, with great power comes great responsibility. It reminds me of a passage starting luke 12:41-48 and in light of that, I kind of see a correlation between Eph 1:10 and Luke 12:48

I don't know. I suppose I see God blessing us so that we can be a blessing to others. Like Israel was to be a light to the nations (Isaiah 49?) Jesus now calls us that light on a hilltop and we will draw in people who love the light, and we have a task and that task is to give them the good news, and share whatever blessing God has given us to their advantage. After all, we are servants, not masters right?

As you can see, I'm still trying to work all this out. Thanks for your patience.

 

[Webb]

Hi Stovebolts

I'm certainly persuaded we are to be a light in this dark world. Each day I ask for forgiveness and His mercy and grace. Each day I ask Him to let me better understand the fruits of the Spirit and allow them to grow in me. Yes, there was that servant in Lk.12 who knew his lord's will but did not do it. Thats why I mentioned Rev.2:10, being faithful unto death. Even now, in my 4 score years and plus, with Paul I must "keep under my body and bring it into subjection, lest by any means I myself should be a castaway." In the end God is the judge. My duty as I can understand it is to simply point folk to what I understand God's word teaches.

I think mom's car is working for now, thanks for asking.

God bless

 

[jasoncran]

I agree, and Jesus talked more about how to live than what to believe as far as theology was concerned.

Question: Can a JW do what Jesus wrote below?

Matthew 10:37-42 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me. He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it. He that receiveth you receiveth me, and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me. He that receiveth a prophet in the name of a prophet shall receive a prophet's reward; and he that receiveth a righteous man in the name of a righteous man shall receive a righteous man's reward. And whosoever shall give to drink unto one of these little ones a cup of cold water only in the name of a disciple, verily I say unto you, he shall in no wise lose his reward.

No sadly they wont. they teach that only the 144 thousand are saved. they are to follow the 144 thousand as they teach the law and are his prophets. reading the bible for yourself isnt allowed. one isnt born again in that cult.


there jesus is NOT the same. i know. raised in it. its very legalistic and judgmental and the ultimately hypocrisy.

 

[heymikey80]

Whew, I think there needs to be some really careful thinking to get through this, sticking strictly to Scripture.

Abraham was saved through the preaching of the gospel -- any idea of the gospel has to accommodate this fact. But it's not a "wide-angled" example. God revealed Himself to Abraham in many ways. And Abraham was not simply "a good guy, humanly speaking". That did not save Abraham: rather, Abraham relied on the God of the universe.

What's more, Paul states that typically the Spirit saves people and draws others with the Spirit of God alongside them for fellowship. (1 Cor 9:23, I think, as well as John 3:8, Rom 10:14). So yes, the Spirit can do as He pleases, yet under regular conditions today the Spirit of God operates in a particular way that leads a believer to the Person of Christ, and a fellowship of believers in Christ.

 

[tim-from-pa]

I was wondering about this for some time now,
and figures i would ask people here their take on this.

I've added a poll ,. so you don't have to type out what you think, you can just click a box if you like.

Can a person who has never been in Christ be saved ?
I mean, take the hypothetical scenario that someone has been cut
off from society and the information age, and does not know Christ or Christianity.

When Jesus returns, will the heathen (or pagan , or atheist)
be judged upon his/her deeds and willfullness to accept Christ right then and there ?

No, nobody who has never been in Christ will be saved, as no one comes to the Father but by Christ. Likewise, there is no other name where one is to be saved, so says the bible. However, what about those heathen who never heard? Romans answers that reagrding those who heard the gospel being prepared first in the creation:

For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. 17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:


What if they did not hear of Christ? They were prepared and seen all they had around them, being prepared in faith, as God's Word is in the stars, in stone, by His prophets in His Word, and in these last days by His dear Son. They can walk in the light they had.


From that, in the book of Revelation there will be a resurrection of all mankind (Jesus talks about this in John 5) aka "The Great White Throne Judgement" where all those who never had the chance (not to be confused with a "second chance") will be given opportunity to believe in Christ and be saved. This is depicted in the Last Great Day of the feast of Tabernacles where Jesus said (John 7:37)


In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.


and again in Revelation after the millennium:


And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

 

[Mike]

Hey Mike,

Intensity? I'm just discussing a topic that is close to my heart. I haven't dug my heels in nor have I gotten irritated so from my perspective, I'm just sitting across the table with a brother with a cup of coffee in one hand having a decent conversation.

Jeff, I probably used the wrong word. By using the word "intensity", I wasn't implying you were angry; rather, vehement. You seemed to be broadening the scope of your point and taking a hard line on it.

Since we've known each other, you and I have had different views on including cult members (Mormon, JW) under the umbrella of Christianity. You've made several references in this thread to "denominations" and seem to be referring to Mormons and JW as denominations. I don't consider them Christian denominations (like Lutheran, Methodist, Baptist...), and you know that. In my view, a denomination of Christianity needs to hold to the core tenets of our faith. In my view, these two groups and others clearly do not.

As with other founders of man-made religions and cults, a person singled himself out as a prophet with a new message. Joseph Smith was one, and he introduced the "revelation" that Jesus was created by God somewhere along the line. He also claimed the revelation that God was a mortal on another planet who was created. He was exalted to be "a god", and we can aspire to be gods of our own planets.

Earlier, you said:

His warning about false prophets ends with being a fruit inspector. Go back and start reading chapter 5 and discern it. We'll know the false prophets by their fruit. Why? because it shows in what they DO... Jesus was very interested in what people do and even said somewhere that if they aint against him, then they're for him.

Jesus did say we'd see His fruits from His true prophets, and I believe there is ample evidence to show Joseph Smith did not show His fruits even after his claimed revelation.

Also, in Deut, chapter 18, we're told this of prophets.

"17 The Lord said to me: “What they say is good. 18 I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers; I will put my words in his mouth, and he will tell them everything I command him. 19 If anyone does not listen to my words that the prophet speaks in my name, I myself will call him to account. 20 But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded him to say, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, must be put to death.â€
21 You may say to yourselves, “How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the Lord?†22 If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the Lord does not take place or come true, that is a message the Lord has not spoken."

Joseph Smith and virtually ever founder of other cults have made prophecies that are contrary to God's Word and eventually were proven false.

All this to say Smith was a false prophet, and I believe those who choose to follow his "new testimony" are choosing to follow another path. They aspire to be gods! But even if they don't aspire to that, they have forsaken God's Word in favor of a charlatan.

Will some of these people be Given Eternal Life on judgment day? I'm never one to say what God will declare, but I certainly wouldn't say they will either. He Gave us His Word, and we either believe Him or not. In my estimation, the odds are not good. This isn't to say the opposite is true; that someone who believe His Word but doesn't truly come to know Him are safe.

 

[stovebolts]

Mike,
Please don't confuse my stance. I agree that Smith and White were false prophets and I agree that they lead people away from the truth. Again, that's not my argument. I'm not talking about the 2 Peter 2 types but we know that they will be held accountable.

James 3:1 Not many of you should become teachers, my fellow believers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly.

Yes, there will be those who fall into false teachings. And I believe God will judge their hearts and those that taught them falsely will be held accountable.

Matthew 18:6 “If anyone causes one of these little ones—those who believe in me—to stumble, it would be better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea. 7 Woe to the world because of the things that cause people to stumble! Such things must come, but woe to the person through whom they come!

Will some of these people be Given Eternal Life on judgment day? I'm never one to say what God will declare, but I certainly wouldn't say they will either.

Now we're talking. Do you see how both you and Duane are wishy washy on your stance? You won't answer with a solid answer, but I say firmly that yes, we will see "some of those people" in heaven.

I don't understand what the big deal is. Do you and Duane think that because I say we will see some of "them" folks in heaven I'm endorsing their religion? That is simply not the case.

My next question is why won't either of you address my orgininal thrust that those that have never heard of God or Jesus have a chance too? I believe I've brought some pertinent scriptures to the table that have not been addressed.

 

[stovebolts]

Hi Stovebolts

I'm certainly persuaded we are to be a light in this dark world. Each day I ask for forgiveness and His mercy and grace. Each day I ask Him to let me better understand the fruits of the Spirit and allow them to grow in me. Yes, there was that servant in Lk.12 who knew his lord's will but did not do it. Thats why I mentioned Rev.2:10, being faithful unto death. Even now, in my 4 score years and plus, with Paul I must "keep under my body and bring it into subjection, lest by any means I myself should be a castaway." In the end God is the judge. My duty as I can understand it is to simply point folk to what I understand God's word teaches.

I think mom's car is working for now, thanks for asking.

God bless

Webb,
Glad your Mom's car is working now. You wouldn't want her getting stuck out on the road. Wait? Isn't 4 score like 80 years? Are you serious? How old is your Mom.. and she still drives?

I turn 46 next week and the older I get the more I realize the world around me. I know God has a job for me to do and I keep getting distracted. Honestly, sometimes I feel like Jonah.. I just don't want to do it.

I had a huge eye opener a couple weeks ago. I grew up in foster homes, institutions and between mom and dad's. I was molested by a man at an early age and that grew into homosexuality as a young adult self medicating with drugs and alcohol. Not because I liked it, but it's what I knew. I eventually got married and had a couple kids with a very dysfunctional woman and our kids were removed and neither of us were able to raise them. I went to therapy and I really had an anger problem and a deep rooted hatred for pedophiles. I also gained a deep hatred for drugs. When I was across the country just over a week ago, I found out both my girls are Meth Addicts. That hurts. God put me there at the right time because we forced it out in the open. One is back with my cousin and doing well and the other has been clean for 3 days now. I'm really afraid she's going to go back to the Meth and I'll be going to a funeral. I've already burried one daughter, I don't want to bury another. It hurts.

Because of my past, I spent a lot of time hanging around a lot of good people doing really bad things. There were a few really bad people in the mix too.

What I saw, was the really bad people using the good people doing bad things and they were ruining the good people and stealing their soul.

I have an older step brother like that...He's the bad guy, always has been and last year I found out he had a 4 year old son. How in the world does my brother have a son and I didn't know about it? Simple, he had a son with his wife's teenage daughter.

And I'm supposed to be a light for this guy? My own brother who I grew up with? I told my step mom that I would have a hard time sitting on my hands if I saw him, but I would do my best and my ears kept ringing, "You may be his only hope" because he's my brother, so I had an "in" per se.

He showed up at a small family get together and I had to get myself together quickly. I can't even tell you what was going on in my mind. But as I talked to him, I was reminded that he was my brother and in a way, I was comforted by knowing that he's got charges against him for his actions.

He's living a life of hell on earth. He's created a lot of damage to others including my other step brother who we buried a little over a year ago. I have reason to hate him with the deepest depth of my soul. But I can't. I'm like Jonah, and I don't want the task and I'm just waiting to get swallowed by a big fish... but I was reminded that he is my brother, and that reminded me that we are all on this earth together. All of us. And we all have a task. I'm just not sure I'm up to where God is leading me.

 

[Webb]

Hi Stovebolts

Allow me to clarify, "mom" is my wife. When young she was the most beautiful red-head I'd ever seen, today she is the most beautiful silver haired lady I've ever seen.

Probably this is not the place for such correspondence and after this perhaps we can move it to e-mail. I feel your pain, hurt and turmoil within causing you to wonder if you can go on. You can, and must. The same grace promised Paul is likewise for us. "Mom" and I have a prayer list and you will be added to it for our daily concern.

My life at times has been a struggle and continues to be. I was a U.S. Marine in the Korean war, saw things you would not believe. Coming home I vowed to give my life to God and Jesus so I began to study the scripture, was a member of several denominations. I did oilfield work and some cowboying and went to college and then owned my own paint and body shop. I can relate to your being in foster homes as we were foster parents. We had 4 childeren of our own and adopted twins at 3 days old (the twins are your age) and at one time had 8 children in the home. One foster child we found sleeping in a pile of used tires behind a service station. He had elephant ears and we had them fixed, and he later joined the Navy. One other, after he left our care was murdered in Houston, we took his body home and bought a plot and buried him. Until recently mom and I served as volunteers advocating for abused children in court. While not a preacher I began 2 months ago preaching for a small congregation 17 miles away until they can get on their feet. I go for the class and morning service, go back to my home congregation for the night service and then return to the small congregation for their mid-week service.

Again, you are on my prayer list and should you desire to continue on another medium I am willing.
God bless

 

[Danus]

I was wondering about this for some time now,
and figures i would ask people here their take on this.

I've added a poll ,. so you don't have to type out what you think, you can just click a box if you like.

Can a person who has never been in Christ be saved ?
I mean, take the hypothetical scenario that someone has been cut
off from society and the information age, and does not know Christ or Christianity.

When Jesus returns, will the heathen (or pagan , or atheist)
be judged upon his/her deeds and willfullness to accept Christ right then and there ?

....Much depends on meaning your putting into the question, but I think on some levels your asking if someone who has not heard the gospel can be saved.

We can't just say than an atheist, an agnostic, a heathen, a reprobate is someone that has not heard the gospel, because it's more than that.

No one is without two things; 1. sin, and 2. knowledge of God. Paul says in Romans 1:18-20 (NIV)
18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

The last part is very telling and should be the basis for fear and trembling; " people are without excuse." excuse for what? "suppressing the truth by their wickedness". But what if they don't know? "what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them."

No one can ever say they don't know of God. They may not have thought of many details, or heard the stories, or pondered the many philosophical thoughts about God and how he works, but it does not matter.

There are two truths of the bible that are undeniable.
1. Anyone can be saved.
2. Not everyone is saved.

I think Paul points this out very well in Romans as to distinguish the difference. We can say of people all day what points to their sin and what might deify them as loving God, but those who suppress the truth by their wickedness, will be without excuse. This is to say those who suppress the truth they already know of, by what they are by nature, (sin) ......will have no excuse when it comes to being judged. They can not say they did not know, or that God is not just. A persons knowledge of God is not what condemns them, it's suppressing that truth by their own sin that is, because it takes them away from what they do know.

 

[Free]

I think you and I are completely out of sync Duane. Your not hearing what I'm writing. Doctrines don't and won't save anyone. Doctrines don't have the power to save. The only thing that saves us is Grace, and the good news (gospel) is that Christ died on the cross for our sins.

I am hearing what you're writing but this just begs the question. Who is the Christ? Who do you say that he is?

Believing correct doctrine, particularly regarding who Jesus is, is necessary for salvation. I have shown that that is most likely to be the case according to Scripture.

Somebody can have all the right answers, and when that day comes, Jesus can say, "Away from me, I never knew you". My point is that believing certain doctrines isn't what saves anyone. Salvation is wholistic. It's body, soul and spirit and yes, Jesus still saves people from divorce, drug addiction, pornography and even homosexuality and that salvation has eternal implications.

But this does that not address the Scriptures I gave. Someone can have all the right answers and Jesus can say that, or they can do things in his name and he will still say that.

Exactly, and that was my point all along. I do hope we're starting to sync up. Belief in and of itself doesn't save us. Yes, what we believe is important, but it has to be lived out. How in the world do you live out and put flesh around the doctrine of the trinity etc? Are you starting to see what I'm talking about yet?

It doesn't seem like that was your point all along--"The church is more focused on believing than doing. We must "believe" a certain list of doctrines in order to be saved. Balderdash." You used James 2:19 incorrectly to make it seem that James was speaking against belief alone.

I brought up the fact that they heard of God to make the point that this crowd already heard of God and Jesus. They had the choice to believe or not. I origninally started this out talking about people who never heard of God or Jesus but that's not what you wanted to talk about, or you think that somebody that has never heard of the name of Jesus is going to hell. I can't really tell what you believe about this Duane because your so focused on "believing" that I haven't heard you say anything about those who have never heard of God or Jesus. Anyway...

Then I must suggest you haven't read what I wrote. From my first post I made it clear where I stood in regards to the question the OP was asking. I haven't deviated from what the OP was asking and I don't know why you think I have. As for being focused on believing, that's because you seem to keep denying that certain beliefs are necessary for salvation.

And even Pilot asked, "What is truth" didn't he? Yet he allowed an innocent man to die. He caved into pressure. I ask you, was that truth even though he used the disclaimer, "His blood be on your hands". The truth is, the Bible gives us many examples of people sticking up for what is right. We see two women's names in Exodus 1 who are not Hebrew and Pharaoh tells them to kill the children of the Hebrews and they don't. Instead they do what's right and stay to what is truth. They risk their own lives for the lives of others because they understand the truth of the matter. Tell me, did these two women know the truth and did their actions bear out the truth? I say yes. If Jesus is the truth, then I'd say they knew Jesus even before Jesus was born. So yes, it is a universal saying. It is not a static idea.

I don't know what these women knew so I am not going to go beyond what Scripture states.

Let's sit here for a moment. You said "most". Tell me, what's the caveat for those who don't burn in hell since it will be the minority that belong to the Mormon or Jehovah Witness church? I'm really curios now.

The caveat would actually be those who have come to a knowledge of the truth of Christ and the full revelation of God and the gospel, yet I would then question why they would not withdraw themselves from those religions. It's hard to think of how one could remain a Christian and still belong. Indeed, if other adherents found out, they would likely be ostracized anyway.

What your talking about has been around for 2,000 years and much of it is addressed in our NT if you do a little historical research so it's already been brought into consideration. We should follow suit with what we know, not what "they" believe. The truth will come out and we should defend these truths, but we should do it in love because their distortions have nothing to do with what Christ did on the Cross. Tell me though, earlier you said "Most". Why not all?

I really don't understand your point here.

John 3 states that believing in who Jesus is is central to salvation. We simply cannot believe whatever we want about him and expect to spend eternity with him.

I think it's pretty clear.

19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20 Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed. 21 But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God.

I take this as a universal truth.

Well of course it's truth but what do you mean by "a universal truth"? It seems as though you want to take these later verses and use them against the former? It would seem to me that these verses, in being consistent with what I have stated, are saying that those who love truth comes to Christ--"Light has come into the world" and "whoever lives by the truth comes into the light." Perhaps it isn't as clear as you think.

Do you see how both you and Duane are wishy washy on your stance?

How is anything I have stated "wishy washy"?

I don't understand what the big deal is. Do you and Duane think that because I say we will see some of "them" folks in heaven I'm endorsing their religion? That is simply not the case.

On what grounds will they be in heaven?

My next question is why won't either of you address my orgininal thrust that those that have never heard of God or Jesus have a chance too? I believe I've brought some pertinent scriptures to the table that have not been addressed.

You dismissed several that I gave and as far as I know, I've addressed all that you have provided. And, as I pointed out already, I have addressed the topic.

 

[AwakenedOne]

yeah farouk , i know the passage..



But what if a person does good works, is faithful and morally a good person,
yet has not accepted Christ ?
(this could be simply because they never "met" him )

It's a difficult question to me,
but i would assume Christ knows humans by their heart even if they do not accept / know Christ as Lord.

what say you ?

People are so quick to quote the Scripture that says, "....no man comes to the Father except through me." when most people do not even truly understand the meaning. What does it mean that you have to go THROUGH Christ to get the Father? Does it means saying a magical prayer of faith? Or does it mean having the WORKS of Christ and doing good every man to his neighbor?

Faith without works is dead and you can have faith in Christ all day long, go to church or whatever and still not be in CHRIST.

Yes the heathen can be saved and God is the judge. It's so sad how quick so many 'Christians' are to send people to an eternal hell. Wow, the love of God is so strong in church. *sarcastic* They are quick to say, " NO NO NO, THEY CAN'T GO TO HEAVEN BECAUSE THEY HAVENT ACCEPTED CHRIST" or because of this reason or that reason. These people are void of the true love of Christ and they are the ones Jesus talked about in Mattew 7 when He said, :

“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

Only God can judge those people because only God knows their hearts. They might be IN CHRIST and not even know it because they are filled with the compassion and love of God and love their neighbors and give all they have to those around them and truly serve.

The last I read the Bible said that everyone will be judged according to their works, whether they were good or bad.

It's sad that people can claim to be a follower of Christ but be totally void of the any love and compassion for the lost. They are so quick to send someone to hell.

Sad.

 

[Free]

People are so quick to quote the Scripture that says, "....no man comes to the Father except through me." when most people do not even truly understand the meaning. What does it mean that you have to go THROUGH Christ to get the Father? Does it means saying a magical prayer of faith? Or does it mean having the WORKS of Christ and doing good every man to his neighbor?

Perhaps you can enlighten us as to the true meaning of that verse then.

Yes the heathen can be saved and God is the judge. It's so sad how quick so many 'Christians' are to send people to an eternal hell. Wow, the love of God is so strong in church. *sarcastic* They are quick to say, " NO NO NO, THEY CAN'T GO TO HEAVEN BECAUSE THEY HAVENT ACCEPTED CHRIST" or because of this reason or that reason. These people are void of the true love of Christ and they are the ones Jesus talked about in Mattew 7 when He said, :

“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

This passage has been addressed. Notice what Christ says just before that:

Mat 7:13 "Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many.
Mat 7:14 For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few. (ESV)

The "narrow gate" being Christ himself.

Only God can judge those people because only God knows their hearts. They might be IN CHRIST and not even know it because they are filled with the compassion and love of God and love their neighbors and give all they have to those around them and truly serve.

How can one "be in Christ" and "not even know it"? What does it mean to "be in Christ" and how does one get there?

The last I read the Bible said that everyone will be judged according to their works, whether they were good or bad.

If you can provide the passage we can look at it and see if it says what you are making it out to say.

It's sad that people can claim to be a follower of Christ but be totally void of the any love and compassion for the lost. They are so quick to send someone to hell.

Sad.

It sure would be sad if "people can claim to be a follower of Christ but be totally void of the any love and compassion for the lost."

 

[stovebolts]

Free,

I've not the time to argue with you and it looks as if your on your own little agenda.

With that, this will be my last post in this thread, and you can have the last word if you choose.

What I will end with is the idea of coming to the understanding of the fullness of God. That is an impossible task for any man, so I will discount that statement.

As far as doctrines, know that I do hold to many good doctrines, and the Bible even tells us that we should. I believe it is in Timothy if you care to look it up. But as your assertion that doctrines save, you are sadly mistaken.

What you propose is that if one does not have the right doctrine, then one is not saved. That is the worst thing I have ever heard. Let's just look at this.

Trinity. The church was split over this issue and pride and arrogance over this matter came full head in 1054. If it is as you've said, then those with the bad doctrine go to hell and the others go to heaven. So Free, does the trinity look like a triangle or an upside down triangle? Remember, your salvation counts on it.

How about Baptism? I know people who believe that if one isn't baptized, they are hell bound. Both parties cannot be right, so one set is going to hell and the other to heaven based on this doctrine.

And then there is the matter of speaking in tongues. I know of those that say if you have not spoken in tongues then you don't have the holy spirit, and if you don't have the holy spirit, your going to hell. Duane, have you spoken in tongues lately? Your salvation depends on it.

How about Communion? Do you take communion every Lord's day? Is the Bread and Fruit of the Vine a loave and a cup, or is it tiny crackers and individual cups? Is it grape juice or wine? Are they emblems of the body and blood of Jesus or are they the body and blood of Jesus. Remember, your salvation depends on your doctrines. You will go to hell if your doctrine is wrong on this matter. This is serious stuff.

What irks me is that the things that are supposed to unite the body of Christ are actually being used to divide the body of Christ.

How about we just trust Jesus... What did he say? You will know my disciples by their doctrines?... I didn't think so.

If I sound snitty free, it's because I'm being snitty. But I believe I'm making my point and that simply is, "Doctrines don't save you".

With that, I bow out and you may have the closing argument. But I would also add that because somebody has a good argument doesn't mean that they hold the correct understanding. One can be right, and still be dead wrong.

Grace and Peace.

 

[AwakenedOne]

Perhaps you can enlighten us as to the true meaning of that verse then.


This passage has been addressed. Notice what Christ says just before that:

Mat 7:13 "Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many.
Mat 7:14 For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few. (ESV)

The "narrow gate" being Christ himself.


How can one "be in Christ" and "not even know it"? What does it mean to "be in Christ" and how does one get there?


If you can provide the passage we can look at it and see if it says what you are making it out to say.


It sure would be sad if "people can claim to be a follower of Christ but be totally void of the any love and compassion for the lost."

1 John 2:3-6
"We know that we have come to know him if we keep his commands. 4 Whoever says, “I know him,†but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in that person. 5 But if anyone obeys his word, love for God[a] is truly made complete in them. This is how we know we are in him: 6 Whoever claims to live in him must live as Jesus did."

According to this scripture you have to keep his commandment and if you claim to have Jesus than you must live as Jesus did. What is his commandment? LOVE OTHERS. WALK IN LOVE, LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.

If you believe the Word of God like you say you do than what is it saying here??

James 2:14-26, “What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have
works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

So, when Jesus says the only way to the Father is through him, what does it mean to be in Christ? What does it mean to go THROUGH Christ? Wouldn't that mean to put on Christ and walk as Christ walked, do as Christ did? To be in Christ means to walk in love. If you are not truly walking in love than you don't even have Christ at all. All you have is a 'figure' of Christ and a religious Christ which was put in as a substitue for the real Christ. Yes, this is the spirit of antichrist.​

This is why many 'churchgoers' and religious people were sent to hell directly by Christ! Wow. Look.

"Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:" Matthew 7:22-24

You see, those church goers and religious people all BELIEVED in Christ but they didn't DO as he commanded. They had a form of godliness but denied the power thereof.

3 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me." John 14:23-24

If you don't keep His words and sayings,(Love others) than you are denying Him. If you deny Christ's words than you are rejecting the Father also.

If you are religous and go to church all the time, read the bible, pray. Even if you are a man of knowledge and know alot of scripture, if you aren't loving others in words AND DEEDS, than you are denying the Father and the Son.

 

[Free]

1 John 2:3-6
"We know that we have come to know him if we keep his commands. 4 Whoever says, “I know him,†but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in that person. 5 But if anyone obeys his word, love for God[a] is truly made complete in them. This is how we know we are in him: 6 Whoever claims to live in him must live as Jesus did."

According to this scripture you have to keep his commandment and if you claim to have Jesus than you must live as Jesus did. What is his commandment? LOVE OTHERS. WALK IN LOVE, LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.

If you believe the Word of God like you say you do than what is it saying here??

James 2:14-26, “What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have
works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

So, when Jesus says the only way to the Father is through him, what does it mean to be in Christ? What does it mean to go THROUGH Christ? Wouldn't that mean to put on Christ and walk as Christ walked, do as Christ did? To be in Christ means to walk in love. If you are not truly walking in love than you don't even have Christ at all. All you have is a 'figure' of Christ and a religious Christ which was put in as a substitue for the real Christ. Yes, this is the spirit of antichrist.​

This is why many 'churchgoers' and religious people were sent to hell directly by Christ! Wow. Look.

"Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:" Matthew 7:22-24

You see, those church goers and religious people all BELIEVED in Christ but they didn't DO as he commanded. They had a form of godliness but denied the power thereof.

3 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me." John 14:23-24

If you don't keep His words and sayings,(Love others) than you are denying Him. If you deny Christ's words than you are rejecting the Father also.

If you are religous and go to church all the time, read the bible, pray. Even if you are a man of knowledge and know alot of scripture, if you aren't loving others in words AND DEEDS, than you are denying the Father and the Son.

This doesn't appear to address anything I have said or the questions I asked.

 

[Free]

Free,

I've not the time to argue with you and it looks as if your on your own little agenda.

So you enter into a debate, claim I have an agenda simply because we disagree and then leave? That doesn't seem fair.

With that, this will be my last post in this thread, and you can have the last word if you choose.

I'm not wanting to have the last word but that is your choice. There are some things that need addressing.

But as your assertion that doctrines save, you are sadly mistaken.

And yet you didn't even attempt to address the passages I posted.

What you propose is that if one does not have the right doctrine, then one is not saved. That is the worst thing I have ever heard. Let's just look at this.

Trinity. The church was split over this issue and pride and arrogance over this matter came full head in 1054. If it is as you've said, then those with the bad doctrine go to hell and the others go to heaven. So Free, does the trinity look like a triangle or an upside down triangle? Remember, your salvation counts on it.

How about Baptism? I know people who believe that if one isn't baptized, they are hell bound. Both parties cannot be right, so one set is going to hell and the other to heaven based on this doctrine.

And then there is the matter of speaking in tongues. I know of those that say if you have not spoken in tongues then you don't have the holy spirit, and if you don't have the holy spirit, your going to hell. Duane, have you spoken in tongues lately? Your salvation depends on it.

How about Communion? Do you take communion every Lord's day? Is the Bread and Fruit of the Vine a loave and a cup, or is it tiny crackers and individual cups? Is it grape juice or wine? Are they emblems of the body and blood of Jesus or are they the body and blood of Jesus. Remember, your salvation depends on your doctrines. You will go to hell if your doctrine is wrong on this matter. This is serious stuff.

Please go back and read and see that I clearly stated that who Jesus is is essential to salvation. Is it a slippery slope and one could add on such other doctrines? Possibly, but it's no worse than your position.

What irks me is that the things that are supposed to unite the body of Christ are actually being used to divide the body of Christ.

How about we just trust Jesus... What did he say? You will know my disciples by their doctrines?... I didn't think so.

You are begging the question. Who is it that makes up the body of Christ? Is the body of Christ being divided or is it simply true believers being separated from those only claiming to be believers?

I ask again: who do you say that he is? If there is a very loving atheist are they a disciple of Christ? People all over the world love all sorts of false gods and idols and love others. Does it matter what Mormons believe about Jesus? What about JWs, or any other number of cults and religions for that matter?

So which Jesus do you want to trust in? Are we not to worship God in spirit and in truth? Are we not to worship God as he reveals himself to be in Scripture? Do you think one is worshiping a false God if they don't believe all he says about himself in Scripture?

Your position makes it seem as though you have given in to some post modernism or liberal theology.

If I sound snitty free, it's because I'm being snitty. But I believe I'm making my point and that simply is, "Doctrines don't save you".

Are you really going to say that they have nothing to do with salvation, that one can believe what they want but as long as they love people and do good things they are saved?

The entirety of Scripture either points towards Christ or speaks plainly of him. He is God in human flesh, the one who died and is now mediator between God and man, and the one who will return. It is all about him. How can we think that it doesn't really matter what one believes about him?

But I would also add that because somebody has a good argument doesn't mean that they hold the correct understanding. One can be right, and still be dead wrong.

Yes, of course.