CAN A REFORMED BELIEVER FALL AWAY FROM FAITH?

[2nd Timothy Group]

Scriptures win a lens of prechosen understanding. (interpretation differs)

Ahhhh . . . that isn't stereotyping at all, is it? :D

 

[Randy]

Surely. But what does it matter if they were never intended by God to be believers?

I guess to them it doesn't. But they can't know who was written in that book of life they put their hope in. So it still has to be "whosoever"

I read "not wanting any to perish" and "wanting all to come repentance" as God will.
But do not ignore this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like one day. 9 The Lord is not slow about his promise, as some think of slowness, but is patient with you, not wanting any to perish, but all to come to repentance.

 

[2nd Timothy Group]

I read "not wanting any to perish" and "wanting all to come repentance" as God will.

Matthew 15:13 NLT - "Jesus replied, "Every plant not planted by my heavenly Father will be uprooted . . ."

 

[Hopeful]

Not in defiance of God, but out of weakness and ignorance as we, the children of God, grow up into the qualities of the Spirit.

As God promises we will never be tempted above what we can handle, (1 Cor 10:13), and James says it takes enticement, lust, temptation, and conception to make a deed a sin, (James 1:14-15), there really can't be any weakness or ignorance involved in the committing of a sin.

2Peter 1:8
8For if you possess these qualities and continue to grow in them, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

As that verse deals with "the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ", 2 Peter 1:10 sums it up better..."Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:"
I call the refusal to "give diligence" defiance of God.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

A changed life, a totally Transformed life is the best evidence of a regenerated Heart.

It is, but in Calvinism if you endure to the end is the sign of the 'true' believer. So no Calvinist can truly know they are really born again until the moment they die. They deny that, of course, but that is what their theology teaches.

 

[Hopeful]

The presence of the Spirit in a person breaks the authoritative control that the corrupt desires of the flesh have over a natural person. And so the flesh is cut off and cast aside in that way. The only thing literal about it is the presence of the Holy Spirit. He is a greater power in a person than the desires of the flesh that once ruled over them were.

That ties in perfectly with Gal 5:24..."And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts."
No fleshly oriented mind, or vile lusts,...no sin.

 

[Hopeful]

Scriptures win a lens of prechosen understanding. (interpretation differs)

So they declare it themselves.
Hmmm

 

[Hopeful]

A changed life, a totally Transformed life is the best evidence of a regenerated Heart.

Absolutely.
What does continued sin evidence?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

As God promises we will never be tempted above what we can handle, (1 Cor 10:13), and James says it takes enticement, lust, temptation, and conception to make a deed a sin, (James 1:14-15), there really can't be any weakness or ignorance involved in the committing of a sin.

As that verse deals with "the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ", 2 Peter 1:10 sums it up better..."Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:"
I call the refusal to "give diligence" defiance of God.

Weakness...

Hebrews 5:1-2
1Every high priest is appointed from among men to represent them in matters relating to God, to offer gifts and sacrifices for sins. 2He is able to deal gently with those who are ignorant and misguided, since he himself is beset by weakness.

Hebrews 4:15-16
15For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who was tempted in every way that we are, yet was without sin. 16Let us then approach the throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need.


And in regard to the 2 Peter 1 passage, knowledge is just one of the traits. We are growing up into ALL the traits of the Spirit listed...

2 Peter 1:5-11
5For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith virtue; and to virtue, knowledge; 6and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; 7and to godliness, brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness, love. 8For if you possess these qualities and continue to grow in them, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9But whoever lacks these traits is nearsighted to the point of blindness, having forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins.

10Therefore, brothers, strive to make your calling and election sure. For if you practice these things you will never stumble, 11and you will receive a lavish reception into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

 

[2nd Timothy Group]

It is, but in Calvinism if you endure to the end is the sign of the 'true' believer. So no Calvinist can truly know they are really born again until the moment they die. They deny that, of course, but that is what their theology teaches.

I cannot imagine not having complete and total assurance of not only my Faith but my destiny. When the Lord Powerfully encountered me in the Arizona desert about six years ago, that was the last day that I ever had any doubt whatsoever about my Spiritual Future. Why? Because Jesus doesn't cast His Holy Pearls upon pigs. In other words, Jesus doesn't perform His Works upon anyone who is destined for a place other than Heaven.

 

[Hopeful]

Weakness...
Hebrews 5:1-2
1Every high priest is appointed from among men to represent them in matters relating to God, to offer gifts and sacrifices for sins. 2He is able to deal gently with those who are ignorant and misguided, since he himself is beset by weakness.
Hebrews 4:15-16
15For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who was tempted in every way that we are, yet was without sin. 16Let us then approach the throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need.

Doesn't it make sense that God knew those verses before it was written that we will never be tempted above what we can handle, in 1 Cor 10:13?
He will not allow weakness to overwhelm His promise of an escape.
Thanks be to God !

And in regard to the 2 Peter 1 passage, knowledge is just one of the traits. We are growing up into ALL the traits of the Spirit listed...
2 Peter 1:5-11
5For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith virtue; and to virtue, knowledge; 6and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; 7and to godliness, brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness, love. 8For if you possess these qualities and continue to grow in them, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9But whoever lacks these traits is nearsighted to the point of blindness, having forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins.

10Therefore, brothers, strive to make your calling and election sure. For if you practice these things you will never stumble, 11and you will receive a lavish reception into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Thank God all the traits can be accomplished in God['s children..

 

[2nd Timothy Group]

Absolutely.
What does continued sin evidence?

Providing that a person actually received the Circumcision of Christ, the new "motor" for sin is evidence of human memory. Just because a person is released from the captivity of the Devil doesn't mean that a person will not contend with their memories and the things they enjoy, such as alcoholism, drug addiction, sex addiction, etc. Surely, these things will continue, likely, for at least a little while as the Sanctification process ensues.

Continued sin is one thing, but habitual or "practiced" sin is another. I hope the below Scripture makes this point, but I will understand if you don't "buy" it. :D

1 John 3:8-10 NLT - "But when people keep on sinning, it shows that they belong to the devil, who has been sinning since the beginning. But the Son of God came to destroy the works of the devil. Those who have been born into God's family do not make a practice of sinning, because God's life is in them. So they can't keep on sinning, because they are children of God. So now we can tell who are children of God and who are children of the devil. Anyone who does not live righteously and does not love other believers does not belong to God."

The test for a regenerated heart is included in the above Scripture. We should respect it by believing it.

 

[Hopeful]

I cannot imagine not having complete and total assurance of not only my Faith but my destiny. When the Lord Powerfully encountered me in the Arizona desert about six years ago, that was the last day that I ever had any doubt whatsoever about my Spiritual Future. Why? Because Jesus doesn't cast His Holy Pearls upon pigs. In other words, Jesus doesn't perform His Works upon anyone who is destined for a place other than Heaven.

Not to minimize your experiance, but I wonder if Ananias and his wife Sapphira thought the same thing.

 

[2nd Timothy Group]

Not to minimize your experiance, but I wonder if Ananias and his wife Sapphira thought the same thing.

Wow, that's pretty harsh. And, I doubt it, as they were liars. They lied to God about their endeavors.

Are you trying to get back on the Ignore list? You said that you discuss things with Love, but this is a failing post in that respect. Come on now . . .

 

[Hopeful]

Providing that a person actually received the Circumcision of Christ, the new "motor" for sin is evidence of human memory. Just because a person is released from the captivity of the Devil doesn't mean that a person will not contend with their memories and the things they enjoy, such as alcoholism, drug addiction, sex addiction, etc. Surely, these things will continue, likely, for at least a little while as the Sanctification process ensues.

If any more than the memory or temptations based on the memory of those things occurs, the "flesh" hadn't been circumcised.
Jesus said the truth would make us free.
The Jews asked, (paraphrasing), "Free from what?"
Jesus answered: "Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin." (John 8:32-34)
The truth can free men from committing sin.

Continued sin is one thing, but habitual or "practiced" sin is another.

No, they are the same thing...sin.
And the product of the seed of Adam...not the seed of God. I hope the below Scripture makes this point, but I will understand if you don't "buy" it. :biggrin

1 John 3:8-10 NLT - "But when people keep on sinning, it shows that they belong to the devil, who has been sinning since the beginning. But the Son of God came to destroy the works of the devil. Those who have been born into God's family do not make a practice of sinning, because God's life is in them. So they can't keep on sinning, because they are children of God. So now we can tell who are children of God and who are children of the devil. Anyone who does not live righteously and does not love other believers does not belong to God."

The test for a regenerated heart is included in the above Scripture. We should respect it by believing it.

The phrase "practice" is not in the KJV of scripture used for 400 plus years.
It is a tool of the accommodators of sin, who inserted it in later "versions" of the bible.

Seed can only bring forth after itself, so if the fruit is evil, it had an evil progenitor.
Sinners are the children of the devil, whether they sin once or a hundred times.

 

[2nd Timothy Group]

If any more than the memory or temptations based on the memory of those things occurs, the "flesh" hadn't been circumcised.

That is completely illogical, not to mention unbiblical.

1 John 2:1 NLT - "My dear children, I am writing this to you so that you will not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate who pleads our case before the Father. He is Jesus Christ, the one who is truly righteous."

Just curious . . . what is your style of Bible Study? Have you ever read the entire Old Testament? And if yes, did you read it in a timeline, chronological order? I ask because it seems like you're kind of a newbie at Christianity.

Sorry, because of faultering from the very get-go, I didn't dig further into your response. We have a ways to go before we can really dig in to real discussion about the real Gospel.

 

[Hopeful]

Wow, that's pretty harsh. And, I doubt it, as they were liars. They lied to God about their endeavors.

I wasn't trying to be harsh, but just wanted you to be wary of overconfidence.
It is written..."Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall." (1 Cor 10:12)
If you are living without sin, God be praised !

Are you trying to get back on the Ignore list? You said that you discuss things with Love, but this is a failing post in that respect. Come on now . . .

My apologies for not being as clear as I should have been.

 

[2nd Timothy Group]

I wasn't trying to be harsh, but just wanted you to be wary of overconfidence.

Why would you discourage people from their confidence? Good grief, if I was confronted with this crap every time I saw you at church, I'd quit attending.

Look, at some point, you're going to have to learn to stop being negative and begin being supportive.

Are you ready and willing to begin being supportive instead of rather difficult?

2 Corinthians 13:11 NIV - "Finally, brothers and sisters, rejoice! Strive for full restoration, encourage one another, be of one mind, live in peace. And the God of love and peace will be with you."

1 Thessalonians 5:11 NIV - "Therefore encourage one another and build each other up, just as in fact you are doing."

Hebrews 3:13 NIV - "But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called "Today," so that none of you may be hardened by sin's deceitfulness."

 

[Hopeful]

That is completely illogical, not to mention unbiblical.

1 John 2:1 NLT - "My dear children, I am writing this to you so that you will not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate who pleads our case before the Father. He is Jesus Christ, the one who is truly righteous."

Do you know who the "anyone" is?
It is he who is not walking in the light, which is God. (1 John 1:5)
He doesn't "know God".
It is written in 1 John 1:3-4..."And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him."
Sounds like those who walk in darkness. (1 John 1:6)

Just curious . . . what is your style of Bible Study? Have you ever read the entire Old Testament? And if yes, did you read it in a timeline, chronological order? I ask because it seems like you're kind of a newbie at Christianity.

I have been reading and studying the NT for twenty some years.
I don't study the OT very much, though I do read from it everyday.
Its' presages have been fulfilled in Christ.

Sorry, because of faultering from the very get-go, I didn't dig further into your response. We have a ways to go before we can really dig in to real discussion about the real Gospel.

The "real gospel" is...Jesus died for our sins and was raised from the grave.
Anything else stems from that "root".

 

[Hopeful]

Why would you discourage people from their confidence? Good grief, if I was confronted with this crap every time I saw you at church, I'd quit attending.

Look, at some point, you're going to have to learn to stop being negative and begin being supportive.

Are you ready and willing to begin being supportive instead of rather difficult?

2 Corinthians 13:11 NIV - "Finally, brothers and sisters, rejoice! Strive for full restoration, encourage one another, be of one mind, live in peace. And the God of love and peace will be with you."

1 Thessalonians 5:11 NIV - "Therefore encourage one another and build each other up, just as in fact you are doing."

Hebrews 3:13 NIV - "But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called "Today," so that none of you may be hardened by sin's deceitfulness."

There is a wide gulf between "discourage" and "warn".
If you get discouraged at every warning, how can you be warned?

If you are really living without sin, may God be praised !