CAN A REFORMED BELIEVER FALL AWAY FROM FAITH?

[Jethro Bodine]

Agreed.
Predestination is mentioned in the NT
and it means HOW not WHO.

...or it means WHAT.
As in what is predestined for the person chosen by faith, not works?
To be conformed to the image of Christ, that is what.

 

[Randy]

Do pastors or any teachers show this simplicity of Christ. I know they do not. That is why all who learn from them, or speak as they do, are showing not only nothing at all, but are actively opposing the testimony of Christ. That is why they cannot agree to the testimony happening right in front of them now.

What testimony do you state that we can't/don't believe in?

 

[Randy]

How does a reformed believer read in me(Christ)?

Because the Father is the gardener.

“I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful. You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me. “I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.

The devil led him to Jerusalem and had him stand on the highest point of the temple. “If you are the Son of God,” he said, “throw yourself down from here.
10For it is written:
“ ‘He will command his angels concerning you
to guard you carefully;
11they will lift you up in their hands,
so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.’

For it is stated you were chosen for salvation before you were born

Jesus answered, “It is said: ‘Do not put the Lord your God to the test.’ ”

Gods desire=>Choose life.

 

[GodsGrace]

I agree. It's WHEN he gives it that varies person to person. I don't believe the grace of God is available to all people at all times. There is a time when he starts to reveal himself to a person and that varies person to person. .

Yes, I know what you mean.
It's an interesting concept.
It might be true...I just always thought that the grace is always
there, but the person has to be ready in some way.
I can't think of anything biblical that would affirm this one way or the other.
Can you?
2 Timothy 1:9?

 

[GodsGrace]

How does a reformed believer read in me(Christ)?

Because the Father is the gardener.

“I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful. You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me. “I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.

The devil led him to Jerusalem and had him stand on the highest point of the temple. “If you are the Son of God,” he said, “throw yourself down from here.
10For it is written:
“ ‘He will command his angels concerning you
to guard you carefully;
11they will lift you up in their hands,
so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.’

For it is stated you were chosen for salvation before you were born

Jesus answered, “It is said: ‘Do not put the Lord your God to the test.’ ”

Gods desire=>Choose life.

This should be for all the calvinists reading along:

1. IF YOU REMAIN IN ME sounds like a command --- an action the believer would have to take, which would not be predestination, but a choice made of free will.

2. God's desire is that we choose life...Deuteronomy, Joshua
Choose denotes free will.
If we do not choose by free, libertarian, free will, then it is not a real choice made with our free will.

3. The above shows that we could forfeit our salvation IF WE DO NOT remain abiding in Christ.
Which would reject the P in TULIP: Preservation of the saints.
And for those that would say THEY WERE NEVER SAVED TO BEGIN WITH...
please note that it is Jesus making the statement that it's up to us to remain in Him.

 

[GodsGrace]

...or it means WHAT.
As in what is predestined for the person chosen by faith, not works?
To be conformed to the image of Christ, that is what.

OK.
What could also mean what the person is chosen for.
Chosen for pastoral work, chosen for missions, chosen for
volunteerism, etc.
Or just chosen to do a good job at whatever we do and testify for God.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

OK.
What could also mean what the person is chosen for.
Chosen for pastoral work, chosen for missions, chosen for
volunteerism, etc.
Or just chosen to do a good job at whatever we do and testify for God.

Yes, that is what it can mean too. But in the context of Reformed theology it is referring to being chosen for salvation.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Yes, I know what you mean.
It's an interesting concept.
It might be true...I just always thought that the grace is always
there, but the person has to be ready in some way.
I can't think of anything biblical that would affirm this one way or the other.
Can you?
2 Timothy 1:9?

How about this?

Romans 10:14-15
14...how can they believe in the One of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone to preach? 15And how can they preach unless they are sent?

WHEN someone is sent, and WHEN you hear them, that is when you're being called by God. And that's assuming it's the testimony of the Holy Spirit inhabiting the gospel message at that time. Your example of God working behind the scenes preparing you to receive the hearing of the gospel is not his calling. The hearing of the gospel is God calling a person to salvation.

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes, that is what it can mean too. But in the context of Reformed theology it is referring to being chosen for salvation.

Right.
I was responding to you posting that we are chosen for a WHAT.
I do agree with this and was just expounding on it.

 

[GodsGrace]

How about this?

Romans 10:14-15
14...how can they believe in the One of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone to preach? 15And how can they preach unless they are sent?

WHEN someone is sent, and WHEN you hear them, that is when you're being called by God. And that's assuming it's the testimony of the Holy Spirit inhabiting the gospel message at that time. Your example of God working behind the scenes preparing you to receive the hearing of the gospel is not his calling. The hearing of the gospel is God calling a person to salvation.

But I always loved going to church and confession (Catholic) and religious instruction.
I think God was always a part of my life, but I didn't realize it till I was about 28.
IOW, I heard the gospel message all my life.
Did you?
Maybe this is why you posted Romans 10:14-15?
Maybe you didn't?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I heard the gospel message all my life.
Did you?
Maybe this is why you posted Romans 10:14-15?
Maybe you didn't?

I did not hear the gospel until I was in my late teens or early twenties. I grew up in the church but I was never told the gospel. I first heard it on the 700 Club. Before this there was no calling of God for me to choose.

 

[Hopeful]

I did not hear the gospel until I was in my late teens or early twenties. I grew up in the church but I was never told the gospel. I first heard it on the 700 Club. Before this there was no calling of God for me to choose.

What do you consider the gospel?
For me, it was that Jesus died for my sins, and was raised from the dead because He never committed any sin.
I had heard that message since I was a very young boy, but because I was brought up in a false church, always thought I was OK with God.
It wasn't until I found out that water baptism has to be "my choice" that I got serious about obedience to God.

 

[gordon777]

How does a reformed believer read in me(Christ)?

Because the Father is the gardener.

“I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful. You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me. “I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.

The devil led him to Jerusalem and had him stand on the highest point of the temple. “If you are the Son of God,” he said, “throw yourself down from here.
10For it is written:
“ ‘He will command his angels concerning you
to guard you carefully;
11they will lift you up in their hands,
so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.’

For it is stated you were chosen for salvation before you were born

Jesus answered, “It is said: ‘Do not put the Lord your God to the test.’ ”

Gods desire=>Choose life.

Gods desire is that we choose life, and God set before Israel life and death, blessing and cursing.




Deuteronomy 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:


Death was chosen by Israel, because cursing was followed, and not blessing.

But the covenant that God made with the fathers ( not the covenant of the law) told Israel that in the seed of Abraham, shall all the earth be blessed. God fulfilled this promise by raising up His Son Jesus Christ, to bless us, to turn every one away from their iniquities, God sending forth HIs Son made under the law, to redeem them that were under the law, to receive adoption of sons. ( as in the seed of Abraham all the people of the earth are blessed.)






Acts 3:25 Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.
26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

Galatians 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.







The choice to choose life, became available in the fulness of time, ( when the seed came) and the choice is to believe in this, but not in anything else, as it does not bring blessing, but means yet cursed children, and then made to be taken and destroyed..



2 Peter 2:12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;
13 And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you;
14 Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children:
15 Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;

 

[Jethro Bodine]

What do you consider the gospel?

This is the gospel (the good news)...

Acts 13:32,38-39
32And now we proclaim to you the good news: What God promised our fathers 33He has fulfilled for us, their children, by raising up Jesus.

38Therefore let it be known to you, brothers, that through Jesus the forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you. 39Through Him everyone who believes is justified from everything you could not be justified from by the law of Moses.

For me, it was that Jesus died for my sins

I did not know what this meant until I learned what it meant watching the 700 Club.

 

[Randy]

Gods desire is that we choose life, and God set before Israel life and death, blessing and cursing.




Deuteronomy 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:


Death was chosen by Israel, because cursing was followed, and not blessing.

But the covenant that God made with the fathers ( not the covenant of the law) told Israel that in the seed of Abraham, shall all the earth be blessed. God fulfilled this promise by raising up His Son Jesus Christ, to bless us, to turn every one away from their iniquities, God sending forth HIs Son made under the law, to redeem them that were under the law, to receive adoption of sons. ( as in the seed of Abraham all the people of the earth are blessed.)






Acts 3:25 Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.
26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

Galatians 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.







The choice to choose life, became available in the fulness of time, ( when the seed came) and the choice is to believe in this, but not in anything else, as it does not bring blessing, but means yet cursed children, and then made to be taken and destroyed..



2 Peter 2:12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;
13 And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you;
14 Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children:
15 Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;

I am one who would state there are many in the grave today who regret the choices they made while in the life of the body. But I don't think the Calvinists here are promoting sin nor covetous practices nor love feasts nor corruptions they just believe prechosen by God unto salvation.

 

[GodsGrace]

I did not hear the gospel until I was in my late teens or early twenties. I grew up in the church but I was never told the gospel. I first heard it on the 700 Club. Before this there was no calling of God for me to choose.

In looking back, don't you think God was always calling, somehow?
I mean, I don't think either one of us could support what we believe biblically.
I just think God's grace is always being shed on us.
Then, one day, for whatever reason, we just become aware of it and accept it - or not.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I just think God's grace is always being shed on us.
Then, one day, for whatever reason, we just become aware of it and accept it - or not.

No, really. I literally did not hear and know the gospel until my late teens.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

In looking back, don't you think God was always calling, somehow?

No.
I did not have anything to which God was calling me until my late teens.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I mean, I don't think either one of us could support what we believe biblically.

I did by noting that a person can't believe until they are called and they can't be called until someone is sent. My sent one didn't come into my life until my late teens/early twenties. That is when I heard the gospel of the forgiveness of sin through Jesus for the first time.

 

[Hopeful]

This is the gospel (the good news)...
Acts 13:32,38-39
32And now we proclaim to you the good news: What God promised our fathers 33He has fulfilled for us, their children, by raising up Jesus.
38Therefore let it be known to you, brothers, that through Jesus the forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you. 39Through Him everyone who believes is justified from everything you could not be justified from by the law of Moses.

Amen to that definition of "gospel".
I pray you see no difference between that and my definition.

I did not know what this meant until I learned what it meant watching the 700 Club.

Even the devils will use the truth on some occasions.
I am happy the message appealed to you.