CAN A REFORMED BELIEVER FALL AWAY FROM FAITH?

[2nd Timothy Group]

Do you know who the "anyone" is?
It is he who is not walking in the light, which is God. (1 John 1:5)
He doesn't "know God".
It is written in 1 John 1:3-4..."And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him."
Sounds like those who walk in darkness. (1 John 1:6)

I have been reading and studying the NT for twenty some years.
I don't study the OT very much, though I do read from it everyday.
Its' presages have been fulfilled in Christ.

The "real gospel" is...Jesus died for our sins and was raised from the grave.
Anything else stems from that "root".

It amazes me how completely differently we view the Bible. One would think that if we shared the same Holy Spirit, we'd have the same general ideas and at least feel a common kinsmanship between us.

For us to relate Biblically, I think that we would have to start at ground zero . . . the utmost basics.

 

[2nd Timothy Group]

If you get discouraged at every warning, how can you be warned?

It amazes me how we simply do not connect at any level.

 

[Hopeful]

It amazes me how completely differently we view the Bible. One would think that if we shared the same Holy Spirit, we'd have the same general ideas and at least feel a common kinsmanship between us.

For us to relate Biblically, I think that we would have to start at ground zero . . . the utmost basics.

Do you feel the Holy Ghost will reside in a man who walks in darkness/sin?

 

[2nd Timothy Group]

Do you feel the Holy Ghost will reside in a man who walks in darkness/sin?

I'm sorry, but we need to not communicate for a day or two. When you can show a greater level of respect, I'll consider corresponding with you again. Till then, have a great night!

 

[gordon777]

As that verse deals with "the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ", 2 Peter 1:10 sums it up better..."Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:"
I call the refusal to "give diligence" defiance of God.

I don't think that is quite full enough information to say that verse 10 sums it up better.

The words give away to us, that these things abound, when they are in us.

So faith is in us, virtue, knowledge, temperance, patience, godliness, kindness, and charity, are all within us, for them to abound.

When we lack those things ( being in us) we forget ( have no knowledge of Christ/belief) that Christ purges us of our old sins.


2 Peter 1:5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.



Straight into charity ( for charity to be in us.)

So it is plainly told, we can have all faith to remove mountains, and have not charity.

We can give all goods away, and give our body to be burned, but not have charity.

Charity is long suffering ( patience) and is kind ( brotherly kindness) charity envies not ( virtue) vaunts not itself, is not puffed up ( knowledge in humbleness of MIND) does not behave itself unseemly ( temperance) seeks not her own, not easily provoked, thinks no evil ( it is godliness)

Charity is the Spirit of Christ we put on, it is forgiving quarrels, it is showing that meekness and love of Christ ( as 2nd Timothy was saying, that he wanted to see that from you.) and it must be above knowledge which puffs up, it has to be the type of charity that edifies above knowledge ( it has to be kindness, compassion, and humility, because charity seeks not her own, so it has to be complete seeking for the other instead, as charity is the perfectness of Christ, to be in us, for another to believe in Christ.





1 Corinthians 8:1 Now as touching things offered unto idols, we know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffeth up, but charity edifieth.

1 Corinthians 13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.
3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.
4 Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,
5 Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;

1 Corinthians 13:6 Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;
7 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.
8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

2 Corinthians 4:13 We having the same spirit of faith, according as it is written, I believed, and therefore have I spoken; we also believe, and therefore speak;

Ephesians 1:17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:

Colossians 3:12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;
13 Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye.
14 And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness.

 

[Randy]

I cannot imagine not having complete and total assurance of not only my Faith but my destiny. When the Lord Powerfully encountered me in the Arizona desert about six years ago, that was the last day that I ever had any doubt whatsoever about my Spiritual Future. Why? Because Jesus doesn't cast His Holy Pearls upon pigs. In other words, Jesus doesn't perform His Works upon anyone who is destined for a place other than Heaven.

2 issues prechosen for salvation and OSAS
Do you believe you were chosen to be saved before you were born?

 

[Randy]

Matthew 15:13 NLT - "Jesus replied, "Every plant not planted by my heavenly Father will be uprooted . . ."

The verse you quote was Jesus's reply to his disciples when they informed Jesus that the Pharisees were offended when Jesus spoke this prophecy in regard to them.

‘These people honor me with their lips,
but their hearts are far from me.
9 They worship me in vain;
their teachings are merely human rules

However how do you define those in Him who were cleansed by Jesus's words and warned to remain in Him?
“I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes a so that it will be even more fruitful. 3You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. 4Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

9 The Lord is not slow about his promise, as some think of slowness, but is patient with you, not wanting any to perish, but all to come to repentance.

But doesn't God not letting people be saved who otherwise would have been saved if he'd just given them his grace make it clear that he DOES want some to perish and not come to repentance?

 

[Randy]

So they declare it themselves.
Hmmm

They support their theology with scripture and from their perspective it would be Gods teaching. From those who disagree we would state they are mistaken. They would state we are mistaken.

Many are invited and out of the many few are chosen but the invite is sincere with Gods desire for all to choose life and Gods desire in the peoples choices is shown in the NT in writing. Why would God invite those He knows can't accept? That's not a invitation. That's a declaration of death with no hope of salvation. People are invited by Gods spoken message and His written word. There may be many reasons for people not to accept Gods salvation but they are sincerely invited into the Kingdom of God. As were those people God specifically made a covenant with and they themselves, not God, broke that covenant with their disobedience. For this cause God spoke beforehand of a new covenant He would make and it would not be like the first covenant. Jesus introduced that covenant in His blood and the gospel message sent by God through Christ Jesus our Lord has been proclaimed to all nations.

 

[Cooper]

But doesn't God not letting people be saved who otherwise would have been saved if he'd just given them his grace make it clear that he DOES want some to perish and not come to repentance?

Should God, 'save' Hitler? Or does something need to happen first?
.

 

[Randy]

But doesn't God not letting people be saved who otherwise would have been saved if he'd just given them his grace make it clear that he DOES want some to perish and not come to repentance?

The fault found in the great throne judgement was shown to be in the peoples hearts not God.
The blessings in the law for obedience and Jesus's assurance to those who keep His commands do not allow God to curse. So disobedience is the cause for God not opening the hearts of people to receive the gospel message and its their own choices and sin that causes them to perish.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

As God promises we will never be tempted above what we can handle, (1 Cor 10:13), and James says it takes enticement, lust, temptation, and conception to make a deed a sin, (James 1:14-15), there really can't be any weakness or ignorance involved in the committing of a sin.

If sin is not committed consciously and willingly in unbelief in open defiance of God then it has to be committed for some other reason, like weakness or ignorance or lack of vigilance. By definition a believer won't commit sin out of unbelief. They believe, so how can their sin be motivated by an unbelief they do not possess? They would have to go back to unbelief to sin out of unbelief. So, obviously, believers commit sin for other reasons. Reasons that don't exclude them from the family of God because they are instantly covered by the blood of Christ they believe and trust in continually interceding on their behalf in heaven (Hebrews 7:25).

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Should God, 'save' Hitler? Or does something need to happen first?
.

While he was alive, was Hitler excluded from "not wanting anyone to perish but everyone to come to repentance?" Wouldn't God have preferred that he turn from his wicked ways and live?

Ezekiel 18:23
23Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Lord GOD. Wouldn’t I prefer that he turn from his ways and live?

God had no debt of obligation to save him for he did not turn from his wicked ways and live. But that doesn't mean God didn't want him to.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Should God, 'save' Hitler? Or does something need to happen first?
.

The Calvinist would say what needs to happen first is God, before time began, would have to decide that he wants to make Hitler a believer. For those of us who are not Calvinist, the thing that has to happen first is the person has to hear the gospel and renounce his sin (repent) and receive the forgiveness of sin offered to the whole world in Jesus Christ.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

That ties in perfectly with Gal 5:24..."And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts."
No fleshly oriented mind, or vile lusts,...no sin.

Just because Christ by the Holy Spirit rules in authority over the believer doesn't mean we always obey him. No more than an toddler growing up to maturity always obeys the parents in authority over him. There's a learning curve. And one that God says you'll conquer because that's what believers chosen by faith (not works) have been predestined for.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I cannot imagine not having complete and total assurance of not only my Faith but my destiny.

As a believer you have the assurance that you are saved when God's grace in salvation is manifest in your behavior. The Bible says that is how one has assurance of salvation. That, and the witness of the Spirit.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Jesus doesn't cast His Holy Pearls upon pigs. In other words, Jesus doesn't perform His Works upon anyone who is destined for a place other than Heaven.

Well, that's the very thing that is in debate. So the question is, can a true believer, entrusted with the riches of the gospel message stop believing and trample the promise of Christ's blood underfoot? That's what this all boils down to.

If Christ 'makes' you a believer, because that's what he decided ahead of time that's what you'd be, then, no, you can never stop believing. But, if you are a believer because you of your own free will decided to trust in the blood of Christ, then, yes, theoretically, there is room for the possibility that you can change your mind and go back to the world in unbelief.

 

[Randy]

If sin is not committed consciously and willingly in unbelief in open defiance of God then it has to be committed for some other reason, like weakness or ignorance or lack of vigilance. By definition a believer won't commit sin out of unbelief. They believe, so how can their sin be motivated by an unbelief they do not possess? They would have to go back to unbelief to sin out of unbelief. So, obviously, believers commit sin for other reasons. Reasons that don't exclude them from the family of God because they are instantly covered by the blood of Christ they believe and trust in continually interceding on their behalf in heaven (Hebrews 7:25).

Those who "continue" to sin after coming to the knowledge of truth should expect judgement.
Though there are many differences in peoples lives in regard to their faith in Jesus. I personally can not unknow my relationship with Jesus. I also have believed in and loved Jesus as far back as my memory goes. So I also don't have a point in my life of unbelief to fall back into nor do I have a common frame of reference in those who had to consider the gospel message for many years to be convinced in its truth. If the Son of God can be tempted by Satan to throw Himself down with scriptural assurances of Gods protection them surely a believer in Him must always be on their guard and when tempted to sin in any manner choose the right and reject the wrong. Submit to Christs will out of love form Him.
Even so I expect to finish the race by Gods grace not purely on my own abilities.

Cause is shown in regard to Gods giving and rejecting of grace in the world. It has nothing to do with prechosen before birth unto salvation as the only way to receive God's grace.
God resists the proud, but gives grace to the humble

I am sure you have heard of Bart D. Ehrman. He claims to have once been a born again believer. I had a discussion with him via email. The Spirit gave me this question for him. "How can one have the Spirit of Christ in them and not know Jesus lives?" That's when he stopped replying and never answered the question.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Doesn't it make sense that God knew those verses before it was written that we will never be tempted above what we can handle, in 1 Cor 10:13?
He will not allow weakness to overwhelm His promise of an escape.
Thanks be to God !

The escape is the promise, not that you'll always use it.

As you grow up into the full stature and image of Christ, you'll use the escape he has provided more and more in your moments of weakness and trial and temptation. You become more educated about how to recognize and resist sin and so ignorance will become less and less a reason for sinning. It's a process, not a one time event.

Colossians 3:9-10
9...you have taken off the old self with its practices, 10and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge in the image of its Creator.

Hebrews 5:13-14
13For everyone who lives on milk is still an infant, inexperienced in the message of righteousness. 14But solid food is for the mature, who by constant use have trained their senses to distinguish good from evil.

 

[Cooper]

The Calvinist would say what needs to happen first is God, before time began, would have to decide that he wants to make Hitler a believer. For those of us who are not Calvinist, the thing that has to happen first is the person has to hear the gospel and renounce his sin (repent) and receive the forgiveness of sin offered to the whole world in Jesus Christ.

I like the second part of your answer.
.