CAN A REFORMED BELIEVER FALL AWAY FROM FAITH?

[Cooper]

Well, that's the very thing that is in debate. So the question is, can a true believer, entrusted with the riches of the gospel message stop believing and trample the promise of Christ's blood underfoot? That's what this all boils down to.

If Christ 'makes' you a believer, because that's what he decided ahead of time that's what you'd be, then, no, you can never stop believing. But, if you are a believer because you of your own free will decided to trust in the blood of Christ, then, yes, theoretically, there is room for the possibility that you can change your mind and go back to the world in unbelief.

People change their minds. We see it all the time. One thing among many others, that I like about Christianity is that God does not bind us in chains. Unlike Satan, Jesus INVITES us to follow Him.
.

 

[Hopeful]

I don't think that is quite full enough information to say that verse 10 sums it up better.

The words give away to us, that these things abound, when they are in us.

So faith is in us, virtue, knowledge, temperance, patience, godliness, kindness, and charity, are all within us, for them to abound.

When we lack those things ( being in us) we forget ( have no knowledge of Christ/belief) that Christ purges us of our old sins.


2 Peter 1:5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.



Straight into charity ( for charity to be in us.)

So it is plainly told, we can have all faith to remove mountains, and have not charity.

We can give all goods away, and give our body to be burned, but not have charity.

Charity is long suffering ( patience) and is kind ( brotherly kindness) charity envies not ( virtue) vaunts not itself, is not puffed up ( knowledge in humbleness of MIND) does not behave itself unseemly ( temperance) seeks not her own, not easily provoked, thinks no evil ( it is godliness)

Charity is the Spirit of Christ we put on, it is forgiving quarrels, it is showing that meekness and love of Christ ( as 2nd Timothy was saying, that he wanted to see that from you.) and it must be above knowledge which puffs up, it has to be the type of charity that edifies above knowledge ( it has to be kindness, compassion, and humility, because charity seeks not her own, so it has to be complete seeking for the other instead, as charity is the perfectness of Christ, to be in us, for another to believe in Christ.





1 Corinthians 8:1 Now as touching things offered unto idols, we know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffeth up, but charity edifieth.

1 Corinthians 13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.
3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.
4 Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,
5 Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;

1 Corinthians 13:6 Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;
7 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.
8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

2 Corinthians 4:13 We having the same spirit of faith, according as it is written, I believed, and therefore have I spoken; we also believe, and therefore speak;

Ephesians 1:17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:

Colossians 3:12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;
13 Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye.
14 And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness.

Agreed.

 

[Hopeful]

They support their theology with scripture and from their perspective it would be Gods teaching. From those who disagree we would state they are mistaken. They would state we are mistaken.

Many are invited and out of the many few are chosen but the invite is sincere with Gods desire for all to choose life and Gods desire in the peoples choices is shown in the NT in writing. Why would God invite those He knows can't accept? That's not a invitation. That's a declaration of death with no hope of salvation. People are invited by Gods spoken message and His written word. There may be many reasons for people not to accept Gods salvation but they are sincerely invited into the Kingdom of God. As were those people God specifically made a covenant with and they themselves, not God, broke that covenant with their disobedience. For this cause God spoke beforehand of a new covenant He would make and it would not be like the first covenant. Jesus introduced that covenant in His blood and the gospel message sent by God through Christ Jesus our Lord has been proclaimed to all nations.

By "They" do you mean calvinists?

 

[2nd Timothy Group]

Do you believe you were chosen to be saved before you were born?

Absolutely, for this is precisely what the Bible proclaims. Perhaps the NLT is wrong?

Acts 13:48 NLT - "When the Gentiles heard this, they were very glad and thanked the Lord for his message; and all who were chosen for eternal life became believers."

Romans 8:29-30 NLT - "For God knew his people in advance, and he chose them to become like his Son, so that his Son would be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 30 And having chosen them, he called them to come to him. And having called them, he gave them right standing with himself. And having given them right standing, he gave them his glory."

Ephesians 1:4-5 NLT - "Even before he made the world, God loved us and chose us in Christ to be holy and without fault in his eyes. God decided in advance to adopt us into his own family by bringing us to himself through Jesus Christ. This is what he wanted to do, and it gave him great pleasure."

Ephesians 1:9-12 NLT - "God has now revealed to us his mysterious plan regarding Christ, a plan to fulfill his own good pleasure. And this is the plan: At the right time he will bring everything together under the authority of Christ--everything in heaven and on earth. Furthermore, because we are united with Christ, we have received an inheritance from God, for he chose us in advance, and he makes everything work out according to his plan. God's purpose was that we Jews who were the first to trust in Christ would bring praise and glory to God."

1 Peter 1:1-2 NIV - "Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To God's elect, exiles scattered throughout the provinces of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia, who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to be obedient to Jesus Christ and sprinkled with his blood: Grace and peace be yours in abundance."

 

[Hopeful]

If sin is not committed consciously and willingly in unbelief in open defiance of God then it has to be committed for some other reason, like weakness or ignorance or lack of vigilance.

It can't be "otherwise", or James was wrong in James 1:14-15.

By definition a believer won't commit sin out of unbelief.

True.
That means they won't commit any sin.

They believe, so how can their sin be motivated by an unbelief they do not possess?

They don't believe.
Jesus said the truth would free us from committing sin, in John 8:32-34.
The servants of sin don't believe that.

They would have to go back to unbelief to sin out of unbelief. So, obviously, believers commit sin for other reasons. Reasons that don't exclude them from the family of God because they are instantly covered by the blood of Christ they believe and trust in continually interceding on their behalf in heaven (Hebrews 7:25).

Sinners don't believe, just like the Israelites wandering in the desert 40 years.
It is written..."

1. Hebrews 3:12
   Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
2. Hebrews 3:19
   So we see that they, (the Israelites in the desert), could not enter in because of unbelief.
3. Hebrews 4:6
   Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:
4. Hebrews 4:11
   Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief."

 

[Hopeful]

Just because Christ by the Holy Spirit rules in authority over the believer doesn't mean we always obey him.

That isn't much of a "rule" then, is it?

No more than an toddler growing up to maturity always obeys the parents in authority over him. There's a learning curve. And one that God says you'll conquer because that's what believers chosen by faith (not works) have been predestined for.

A baby will always be oriented toward the flesh, until it is killed and reborn of Gods seed.
The learning curve disappears when the seed from which we originate is changed from Adam's to God's.

 

[Hopeful]

As a believer you have the assurance that you are saved when God's grace in salvation is manifest in your behavior. The Bible says that is how one has assurance of salvation. That, and the witness of the Spirit.

That, is a two way street.

 

[2nd Timothy Group]

However how do you define those in Him who were cleansed by Jesus's words and warned to remain in Him?

This isn't an easy question to answer and I am short on time.

First of all, what we are reading is a living analogy. We can't take analogies and make them literal Truth. Jesus said that all that the Father gives to me, He will lose none of them. Speaking of His Disciples, doesn't this same principle apply to the Holy Elect who were also chosen before the foundation of the world?

Ephesians 1:4-6 KJV - "According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved."

So, we need to figure out of this "in" Christ are His Holy Elect. And, are they really "in" Christ? If they are "in" Christ, then they are not only "complete" in Christ, but Jesus will have defeated the Devil. Colossians 2:9-15 tells us these things. Galatians 5:24 confirms the death of this Sinful Nature: NKJV - "And those who are Christ's have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires."

The Sinful Nature is dead for the Elect, but who raised the dead? If the Sinful Nature is to be resurrected, it would have to be done by Christ, but we already know that He will cast out none who the Father had given to him.

John 6:37 NKJV - 37 "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out."

How do I reconcile this issue? Easy, those who do not belong to God will possess a Seed that dies one way or another. They never belonged to Christ, just as Judas Iscariot never belonged to Christ, for he was a "devil" destined for destruction.

 

[2nd Timothy Group]

Well, that's the very thing that is in debate. So the question is, can a true believer, entrusted with the riches of the gospel message stop believing and trample the promise of Christ's blood underfoot?

My Bibles tell me that True Christians will begin to reflect the Glory of God more and more, as the Lord will finish His good Work to completion. So, no. It is not possible.

2 Corinthians 3:18 NLT - 18 So all of us who have had that veil removed can see and reflect the glory of the Lord. And the Lord--who is the Spirit--makes us more and more like him as we are changed into his glorious image."

Above, what is that Veil? It is the covering Veil of the Sinful Nature. When that Curse is removed, a person will begin to change . . . it is unavoidable.

 

[2nd Timothy Group]

there is room for the possibility that you can change your mind and go back to the world in unbelief.

Any person who has felt the Raw, Almighty Power of God would never, absolutely never recant on that Holy Goodness. It would require an act of God for a person to turn away, and perhaps like king Saul. God clearly removed His Spirit from Saul, gave it to David, and replaced that Spirit of God with an evil Spirit. But any human who has Truly been in the presence of God, they [will] change, especially if they are also privy to the Terror of the Lord. When a person feels the Raw, Almighty Power of God AND the Terror of the Lord, there is no turning back. No one would ever gravitate to the Terror of the Lord. No one. And if a person has not experienced this Terror of the Lord, they can only speak out of ignorance on this topic. And if a person has not felt the Raw, Almighty Power of God, they too can only speak on the topic out of ignorance and learned book knowledge.

 

[Cooper]

Absolutely, for this is precisely what the Bible proclaims. Perhaps the NLT is wrong?

Acts 13:48 NLT - "When the Gentiles heard this, they were very glad and thanked the Lord for his message; and all who were chosen for eternal life became believers."

Romans 8:29-30 NLT - "For God knew his people in advance, and he chose them to become like his Son, so that his Son would be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 30 And having chosen them, he called them to come to him. And having called them, he gave them right standing with himself. And having given them right standing, he gave them his glory."

Ephesians 1:4-5 NLT - "Even before he made the world, God loved us and chose us in Christ to be holy and without fault in his eyes. God decided in advance to adopt us into his own family by bringing us to himself through Jesus Christ. This is what he wanted to do, and it gave him great pleasure."

Ephesians 1:9-12 NLT - "God has now revealed to us his mysterious plan regarding Christ, a plan to fulfill his own good pleasure. And this is the plan: At the right time he will bring everything together under the authority of Christ--everything in heaven and on earth. Furthermore, because we are united with Christ, we have received an inheritance from God, for he chose us in advance, and he makes everything work out according to his plan. God's purpose was that we Jews who were the first to trust in Christ would bring praise and glory to God."

1 Peter 1:1-2 NIV - "Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To God's elect, exiles scattered throughout the provinces of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia, who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to be obedient to Jesus Christ and sprinkled with his blood: Grace and peace be yours in abundance."

Us being all those who believe in him and accept him as their saviour.
.

 

[Hopeful]

The escape is the promise, not that you'll always use it.

If men don't use God's promised escapes from temptation, it shows they don't believe He will take vengeance on them for their disobedience.
They are unbelievers.

As you grow up into the full stature and image of Christ, you'll use the escape he has provided more and more in your moments of weakness and trial and temptation. You become more educated about how to recognize and resist sin and so ignorance will become less and less a reason for sinning. It's a process, not a one time event.

Gradual Christianity, eh?
I don't adhere to such accommodations for continued sin.

Colossians 3:9-10
9...you have taken off the old self with its practices, 10and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge in the image of its Creator.
Hebrews 5:13-14
13For everyone who lives on milk is still an infant, inexperienced in the message of righteousness. 14But solid food is for the mature, who by constant use have trained their senses to distinguish good from evil.

And all happening while God promises we won't be tempted above what we can handle.
The temptations "babes" and "matures" experience are different.
And the escapes are always available for both.
Thanks be to God !

 

[2nd Timothy Group]

Us being all those who believe in him and accept him as their saviour.
.

"Us" being those who were chosen.

 

[Cooper]

Any person who has felt the Raw, Almighty Power of God would never, absolutely never recant on that Holy Goodness. It would require an act of God for a person to turn away, and perhaps like king Saul. God clearly removed His Spirit from Saul, gave it to David, and replaced that Spirit of God with an evil Spirit. But any human who has Truly been in the presence of God, they [will] change, especially if they are also privy to the Terror of the Lord. When a person feels the Raw, Almighty Power of God AND the Terror of the Lord, there is no turning back. No one would ever gravitate to the Terror of the Lord. No one. And if a person has not experienced this Terror of the Lord, they can only speak out of ignorance on this topic. And if a person has not felt the Raw, Almighty Power of God, they too can only speak on the topic out of ignorance and learned book knowledge.

And Solomon?
.

 

[2nd Timothy Group]

And Solomon?
.

King Solomon is a hardcore mystery (to me) for which I do not have answers.

 

[Cooper]

"Us" being those who were chosen.

Calvinist speak. Jesus died for all.
.

 

[Cooper]

King Solomon is a hardcore mystery (to me) for which I do not have answers.

Well, it happened.
.

 

[2nd Timothy Group]

Calvinist speak.

But I'm not a Calvinist. What other rude things would you like to throw at me?

 

[2nd Timothy Group]

Well, it happened.
.

Ok.

 

[Cooper]

But I'm not a Calvinist. What other rude things would you like to throw at me?

God is no respecter of persons. All are welcome, sins forgiven free.
.