Can a Saved man choose to be Lost?

[jasoncran]

the fastest i can throw is 25 mph.
since you ask

i will defend this

one you must drive on the wrong side of the road at times because the house in the opposite side and they want it close to the door or tube. i have a ton of those.

i only veer to that side then back when its safe. i look for oncoming traffic ere i do that.
i also wont run stop lights.

my route is rather large and houses that are thrown are far apart at times.

 

[DarcyLu]

the fastest i can throw is 25 mph.
since you ask

i will defend this

one you must drive on the wrong side of the road at times because the house in the opposite side and they want it close to the door or tube. i have a ton of those.

i only veer to that side then back when its safe. i look for oncoming traffic ere i do that.
i also wont run stop lights.

my route is rather large and houses that are thrown are far apart at times.

yeah, i've seen mailmen do that, too, where it would save them alot of time to drive on the opposite side of the road.

25 mph throw - baseball player among us - at least slow pitch. lol

 

[faithtransforms]

120-205 AD Irenaeus "Christ will not die again on behalf of those who now commit sin because death shall no more have dominion over Him.... Therefore we should not be puffed up.... But we should beware lest somehow, after [we have come to] the knowledge of Christ, if we do things displeasing to God, we obtain no further forgiveness of sins but rather be shut out from His kingdom" (Heb. 6:4­6). (Irenaeus, pupil of Polycarp, Against Heresies bk. 4, chap. 27, sec. 2)

This is one of the earliest church fathers on record. Clearly the early church did not believe in eternal security.

Quoting myself to bring it back up. Iranaeus was a student of Polycarp who was a student of the Apostle John. Clearly they did not believe in eternal security, It is my understanding that the doctrine of eternal security originated with Augustine, circa 400 AD.

What say you?

 

[jasoncran]

uh that because the lots are only 50f by 100ft and the driveways are less then one foot apart on atlantic blvd. and the others are a little farther,

i have picky customers and some are disabled. i have one that pull in her driveway and throw her paper, she tipped me twice. sent me and easter card with a 20 usd tip. i dont send out easter cards but i do send out christmas cards.

i have a few of those.

some i must get out and put the paper in the mailbox near the door, or at the door its self.

ah to bust your bubble on that one, iraneus also founded the papacy as well.

 

[faithtransforms]

ah to bust your bubble on that one, iraneus also founded the papacy as well.

Sorry darling, but at that time the papacy was more like a protestant Bishop or Senior Pastor is today. It took some years for it to get warped into what it is now.

 

[jasoncran]

ah to bust your bubble on that one, iraneus also founded the papacy as well.

Sorry darling, but at that time the papacy was more like a protestant Bishop or Senior Pastor is today. It took some years for it to get warped into what it is now.

reread the the post by vince on him in the thread the first millenium

he wanted the bishop of rome to have the authority on doctrine ,and what do popes do today they claim lineage back to the apostles.

 

[faithtransforms]

ah to bust your bubble on that one, iraneus also founded the papacy as well.

Sorry darling, but at that time the papacy was more like a protestant Bishop or Senior Pastor is today. It took some years for it to get warped into what it is now.

reread the the post by vince on him in the thread the first millenium

he wanted the bishop of rome to have the authority on doctrine ,and what do popes do today they claim lineage back to the apostles.

Ok, I'll read that. I've never read it before.

 

[jasoncran]

180 is an important year for Catholicism, as Ireneus, bishop of Lyons, France, founds the papacy. This is a little bizarre, because:
1) There still aren't any popes
2) The current bishop of Rome isn't a Catholic

Irenaeus (125 - c. 202) wrote "Against Heresies" in an attempt to fight the spread of Gnosticism. He claimed that "every church must agree" with the church of Rome because of its apostolic authority. He argued against Gnosticism by pointing out that most bishops could trace their authority back to the Apostles, and none of them were Gnostics. A disciple of Polycarp, who had been a disciple of the Apostle John, Irenaeus argued that everyone should accept the bishops’ interpretation of Scripture.

Irenaeus's new doctrine about the authority of the bishop of Rome is not widely accepted. In fact, most Christians never hear about it. Priests are beginning to appear in the eastern part of the Empire, but they are not under the authority of the bishop of Rome. The Catholic Church consists mainly of the powerful and influential school at Alexandria, Egypt, and Catholicism is a minority religion among the Christians. But its influence is spreading

here it is. hmm while a good idea to do that to fight the gnostics since the apostles werent gnostics
but the problem is that authority from the Lord.?
or just a man blessing and naming his succesor.

think about that. was it the lord calling them or men? ie the apostles and they past the baton on to others. thats not say that they werent or arent.

i dont believe in pastors have that level of authority like the pope does, nor bishops. that is another topic.

 

[faithtransforms]

Ok, so how 'bout Romans 11:16-22?

16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
17 And if some of the branches be broken off , and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast , thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off , that I might be graffed in .
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off , and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded , but FEAR:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches , take heed lest he also SPARE NOT THEE.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell , severity; but toward thee, goodness, IF thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be CUT OFF.

How do you OSASers get around that?

 

[jasoncran]

Ok, so how 'bout Romans 11:16-22?

16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
17 And if some of the branches be broken off , and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast , thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off , that I might be graffed in .
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off , and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded , but fear :
21 For if God spared not the natural branches , take heed lest he also SPARE NOT THEE.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell , severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be CUT OFF.

How do you OSASers get around that?

who does the saving, your faith in christ or christ?
that is also taking about think that we are better then the jew.

who works get us in? does work get you saved and keep you saved.

 

[faithtransforms]

180 is an important year for Catholicism, as Ireneus, bishop of Lyons, France, founds the papacy. This is a little bizarre, because:
1) There still aren't any popes
2) The current bishop of Rome isn't a Catholic

Irenaeus (125 - c. 202) wrote "Against Heresies" in an attempt to fight the spread of Gnosticism. He claimed that "every church must agree" with the church of Rome because of its apostolic authority. He argued against Gnosticism by pointing out that most bishops could trace their authority back to the Apostles, and none of them were Gnostics. A disciple of Polycarp, who had been a disciple of the Apostle John, Irenaeus argued that everyone should accept the bishops’ interpretation of Scripture.

Irenaeus's new doctrine about the authority of the bishop of Rome is not widely accepted. In fact, most Christians never hear about it. Priests are beginning to appear in the eastern part of the Empire, but they are not under the authority of the bishop of Rome. The Catholic Church consists mainly of the powerful and influential school at Alexandria, Egypt, and Catholicism is a minority religion among the Christians. But its influence is spreading

here it is. hmm while a good idea to do that to fight the gnostics since the apostles werent gnostics
but the problem is that authority from the Lord.?
or just a man blessing and naming his succesor.

think about that. was it the lord calling them or men? ie the apostles and they past the baton on to others. thats not say that they werent or arent.

i dont believe in pastors have that level of authority like the pope does, nor bishops. that is another topic.

Agreed. NO ONE is the ultimate authority on scripture except for God Himself!

 

[jasoncran]

the problem with those that dont believe in eternal security and i was one of those. its like this

i didnt repent yesterday oh man, i could have died and went to hell.

man i cant shake this sin, i have no will or power to overcome it. i'm not saved.

is it always looking over your shoulder for to see if hell is behind you. that worry i'm not make it cause i'm not good enough.

and none of us are. thats the point, we cant do it on our own.if we could keep our salvation then why the cross. if i had it in me to do it why would i need jesus.

i wasnt raised with the legalstic version of salvation, but the other you can choose to walk away, but i still found myself thinking that i wasnt saved at all sometimes.

isnt all sin deadly and destructive and cause one to end up in hell?

 

[archangel_300]

Ok, so how 'bout Romans 11:16-22?

16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
17 And if some of the branches be broken off , and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast , thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off , that I might be graffed in .
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off , and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded , but FEAR:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches , take heed lest he also SPARE NOT THEE.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell , severity; but toward thee, goodness, IF thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be CUT OFF.

How do you OSASers get around that?

Faith, this passage of scripture is not talking about salvation. It's talking about how Israel rejected God and thus they were broken off, they remain in unbelief while the blessings of salvation have come to the Gentiles. The natural branches are Israel while the Gentiles were grafted in. To this day Israel as a nation remains blinded that Jesus is the Messiah and God is warning us as Gentiles to continue in his goodness otherwise God could easily graft Israel back in and we could fall by the wayside. Imagine the time that would be if there is a spiritual revival in Israel while the rest of the world falls into spiritual blindness. Please re-read all of Romans 11.

 

[faithtransforms]

the problem with those that dont believe in eternal security and i was one of those. its like this

i didnt repent yesterday oh man, i could have died and went to hell.

man i cant shake this sin, i have no will or power to overcome it. i'm not saved.

is it always looking over your shoulder for to see if hell is behind you. that worry i'm not make it cause i'm not good enough.

and none of us are. thats the point, we cant do it on our own.if we could keep our salvation then why the cross. if i had it in me to do it why would i need jesus.

i wasnt raised with the legalstic version of salvation, but the other you can choose to walk away, but i still found myself thinking that i wasnt saved at all sometimes.

isnt all sin deadly and destructive and cause one to end up in hell?

All that is the result of a legalistic mindset. I used to have those thoughts too. But now I know and BELIEVE that God is faithful and just to forgive my sins and cleanse me of all unrighteousness. If you die in a car wreck say with anger in your heart toward your brother, you're not going to go to hell.
Just being hung up on a habitual sin doesn't mean your not saved, as long as you are trying, God will deliver you. No one is good enough, that is true, it is by the grace of God we are saved, But we must have more grace of God (and I don't mean the unmerited favor of God, I mean the power of God) to overcome sin. The problem with OSAS is that it flushes holiness right down the toilet. Holiness is clearly taught in scripture.

Romans 6:22 - But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

2 COR 7:1 - Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

Ephesians 4:24 -- And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness. Oour new man is created in righteousness and true holiness!

1 Thess 4:7 - For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness.


Hebrews 12:10 -- For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure ; but he [God] for our profit , that we might be partakers of his holiness

Hebrews 12:14 - Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------I personally don't know any OSASers who think it is even possible to live holy. Yet we are commanded to do so.

And again, what about Romans 11 I quoted in an earlier post, how do you get around that?

 

[jasoncran]

yes, but that is they most non oasas are.

many are here on this forum. i observe much on this forum as i'm always here.

 

[faithtransforms]

Ok, so how 'bout Romans 11:16-22?

16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
17 And if some of the branches be broken off , and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast , thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off , that I might be graffed in .
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off , and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded , but FEAR:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches , take heed lest he also SPARE NOT THEE.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell , severity; but toward thee, goodness, IF thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be CUT OFF.

How do you OSASers get around that?

Faith, this passage of scripture is not talking about salvation. It's talking about how Israel rejected God and thus they were broken off, they remain in unbelief while the blessings of salvation have come to the Gentiles. The natural branches are Israel while the Gentiles were grafted in. To this day Israel as a nation remains blinded that Jesus is the Messiah and God is warning us as Gentiles to continue in his goodness otherwise God could easily graft Israel back in and we could fall by the wayside. Imagine the time that would be if there is a spiritual revival in Israel while the rest of the world falls into spiritual blindness. Please re-read all of Romans 11.

I've read Romans 11, but in the passage I quoted, he is saying WE, the GENTILES, may NOT BE SPARED or may be CUT OFF if we don't continue in his goodness.

 

[glorydaz]

120-205 AD Irenaeus "Christ will not die again on behalf of those who now commit sin because death shall no more have dominion over Him.... Therefore we should not be puffed up.... But we should beware lest somehow, after [we have come to] the knowledge of Christ, if we do things displeasing to God, we obtain no further forgiveness of sins but rather be shut out from His kingdom" (Heb. 6:4­6). (Irenaeus, pupil of Polycarp, Against Heresies bk. 4, chap. 27, sec. 2)

This is one of the earliest church fathers on record. Clearly the early church did not believe in eternal security.

Quoting myself to bring it back up. Iranaeus was a student of Polycarp who was a student of the Apostle John. Clearly they did not believe in eternal security, It is my understanding that the doctrine of eternal security originated with Augustine, circa 400 AD.

What say you?

I say no. The early church most definately did believe in the eternal security of the believer.

Because some take verses out of context or simply don't understand them, does not mean the truth of the Word and the promises of God do not stand firm.

 

[jasoncran]

really holiness, odd,

why do you think i mentioned adrian rogers so much on that, he emphasis holiness. and he lived it

did you know that he was against liberal preaching( ie that the literal creation story wasnt true but an allegory) and that he was against that as it where do your stop.

he was also for the boycotting of disney for its promotion of homosexuality in the florida themepark.
he is also agianst watching ungodly entertainment and also secular entertainment that gloryifed sin

many are on both sides of the oasas debates are holy.
thats not fair to accuse us of lowering the standard.

the puritans believed in eternal security did they not.

look at how they dealt with the witches. while i dont agree with the torture of the witches at salem. they took sin seriously.

 

[jasoncran]

Ok, so how 'bout Romans 11:16-22?

16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
17 And if some of the branches be broken off , and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast , thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off , that I might be graffed in .
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off , and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded , but FEAR:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches , take heed lest he also SPARE NOT THEE.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell , severity; but toward thee, goodness, IF thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be CUT OFF.

How do you OSASers get around that?

Faith, this passage of scripture is not talking about salvation. It's talking about how Israel rejected God and thus they were broken off, they remain in unbelief while the blessings of salvation have come to the Gentiles. The natural branches are Israel while the Gentiles were grafted in. To this day Israel as a nation remains blinded that Jesus is the Messiah and God is warning us as Gentiles to continue in his goodness otherwise God could easily graft Israel back in and we could fall by the wayside. Imagine the time that would be if there is a spiritual revival in Israel while the rest of the world falls into spiritual blindness. Please re-read all of Romans 11.

I've read Romans 11, but in the passage I quoted, he is saying WE, the GENTILES, may NOT BE SPARED or may be CUT OFF if we don't continue in his goodness.

lol, i aint gentile.

 

[faithtransforms]

yes, but that is they most non oasas are.

many are here on this forum. i observe much on this forum as i'm always here.

Yes, and I feel sorry for those non OSASers. They are living under constant condemnation as I used to, until God revealed the truth to me. He is FAITHFUL and JUST to FORGIVE us. His grace and power are what help us overcome. We must simply receive it. If I run into one of those people, I will be happy to minister the truth to them. He is "able to keep us from falling." We must depend on Him daily for this. And condemnation is NEVER from God, ever. God convicts, satan condemns.

Us enlightened non-OSASers know that God will supply the grace for all that He requires of us and that He is quick to forgive.

On another vein, back to holiness. All the OSASers I know have that "I'm just a sinner saved by grace" mentality and believe holiness in this life is impossible. THAT is one of my main problems with OSAS. I am by NO MEANS saying we will be perfect, but we are clearly commanded to live holy, and God will give us the grace to do so if we ask.