Can a Saved man choose to be Lost?

[DarcyLu]

He knew we would choose Him before we knew we would choose Him.

i'm not making fun of you glory, it just made me laugh, say it 5 times fast. lol

predestination is a pre determination by God. He chose the Israelites, He chose Moses and it was not because Moses chose Him, God has a plan and He already knows exactly what that plan is. do you think He created Adam and Eve not knowing they would sin? did He create satan, not knowing what satan would do? no - God knows all from beginning to end and He is in control of it all.

Our free will comes into play with chosing to abiding in Christ, chosing not to sin.

No, it is not "pre-determination". That would void free will and make us no more than puppets.
Just because God knows all, does not mean He did not give man free will.

I don't "think" any of those silly little scenarios you laid out. But I do know that God has given man a free will, and all the claiming otherwise does not change that fact. Our free will comes in when we choose to look upon Jesus. God draws, we respond. We can reject Him. One must take the whole Word of God else we end up sounding like Calvinists who think man has no choice and some are created for wrath. That's just outright error.

silly little scenarios???

what like adam and eve sinned? that silly little scenario? or that satan is a fallen angel? that one....you are saying God didn't already know that would happen. now that one is very funny glory.

 

[DarcyLu]

predestined:
to predetermine, foreordain
Original Word: ????????
Transliteration: proorizó
Phonetic Spelling: (pro-or-id'-zo)
Short Definition: predetermine

Word Origin
from pro and horizó
Definition
to predetermine, foreordain
NASB Word Usage
predestined (6).

 

[glorydaz]

Phil's is saying that He granted (allowed) us to believe in Him. in John you are ignoring the part that says, "He gave us the right" - did we give ourselves that right? NO He did. yes, He does know who will be saved and He predestined and those He predestinated will be conformed into His Son - do you think an evil person is predestined to be conformed into Jesus?
i am not negating what you said either, your verses simply are saying that we must chose to die to ourselves and live in Christ as any other way means death spiritually.

No doubt salvation is a gift...it's actually "given" not "allowed".

I'm ignoring nothing. You are the one that's ignoring any mention of man's free will.

Choosing to die to self has nothing to do with choosing life or death. Why don't you go back and reread the verses I gave you and then you might have a clear understanding of what they're saying instead of continuing to try and make them say something else.

 

[DarcyLu]

I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

[quote="Joshua 24:15":36kw2yyz]And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

[/quote:36kw2yyz]

ok, here are the 2 verses you brought up, i have re read them and like i said before, we must chose, on a daily basis, to abide in Christ, to chose His Life over ours, we must chose to abide in Christ, we must chose to carry our crosses daily.

i am not negating your verses, i am agreeing with them.

 

[glorydaz]

silly little scenarios???

what like adam and eve sinned? that silly little scenario? or that satan is a fallen angel? that one....you are saying God didn't already know that would happen. now that one is very funny glory.

I mean you're giving childish examples. You're trying too hard to prove something that is simply wrong. If you don't believe in free will then come right out and say so. Stop putting forth silly little scenarios that have absolutely nothing to do with the discussion. Address the two verses I gave you, and don't say they have to do with dying to self. Read them in context. Read all the verses that command us to repent. Do you think we're told to repent if we have no choice. Think about it instead of working so hard to prove a point you can never prove using the Word. All the Word...taken together...leaving nothing out...not altering verses to fit your doctrine.

And don't tell me I'm saying God doesn't know what will happen...read my posts instead of claiming I'm saying something I haven't. I have never, and I repeat, never said God didn't know Adam would sin or anything else of the like. Don't twist my words to make yours sound better. It isn't working.

 

[DarcyLu]

Choosing to die to self has nothing to do with choosing life or death.

it has everything to do with life and death.

Galatians 2:20
"I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.

 

[glorydaz]

I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

[quote="Joshua 24:15":24mjvcxj]And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

ok, here are the 2 verses you brought up, i have re read them and like i said before, we must chose, on a daily basis, to abide in Christ, to chose His Life over ours, we must chose to abide in Christ, we must chose to carry our crosses daily.

i am not negating your verses, i am agreeing with them.[/quote:24mjvcxj]

Now you're just being stubborn. This has nothing to do with "on a daily basis". I have set before you 'life or death, blessing or cursing". Choose to serve other gods or choose to serve the Lord. I can see you're more interested in being right than in being corrected, so read the verses however you like. They are quite plain to me.

BTW Why are we commanded by God to repent?

 

[DarcyLu]

silly little scenarios???

what like adam and eve sinned? that silly little scenario? or that satan is a fallen angel? that one....you are saying God didn't already know that would happen. now that one is very funny glory.

I mean you're giving childish examples. You're trying too hard to prove something that is simply wrong. If you don't believe in free will then come right out and say so. Stop putting forth silly little scenarios that have absolutely nothing to do with the discussion. Address the two verses I gave you, and don't say they have to do with dying to self. Read them in context. Read all the verses that command us to repent. Do you think we're told to repent if we have no choice. Think about it instead of working so hard to prove a point you can never prove using the Word. All the Word...taken together...leaving nothing out...not altering verses to fit your doctrine.

And don't tell me I'm saying God doesn't know what will happen...read my posts instead of claiming I'm saying something I haven't. I have never, and I repeat, never said God didn't know Adam would sin or anything else of the like. Don't twist my words to make yours sound better. It isn't working.

i'm not twisting your words, i thought that is what you meant.
i am trying to show that God chose Israel, chose Moses, chose Abraham, i don't know what childish examples you are talking about. personally, i don't think anything that God chose to do is childish at all, it's His perfect plan. so if you have a problem with God choosing who He chose to carry out His plan, you should take it up with Him, I didn't chose them He did.

 

[glorydaz]

Choosing to die to self has nothing to do with choosing life or death.

it has everything to do with life and death.

Galatians 2:20
"I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.

Okay....eternal salvation doesn't even enter into the picture when we're told to choose life over death, or when we're told to serve God instead of other Gods.

 

[DarcyLu]

And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; ]whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

[/quote
quote]

Now you're just being stubborn. This has nothing to do with "on a daily basis". I have set before you 'life or death, blessing or cursing". Choose to serve other gods or choose to serve the Lord. I can see you're more interested in being right than in being corrected, so read the verses however you like. They are quite plain to me.

BTW Why are we commanded by God to repent?

so this verse does not say "choose you this day whom ye will serve" - doesn't this mean on a daily basis?

And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; ]whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

 

[DarcyLu]

Choosing to die to self has nothing to do with choosing life or death.

it has everything to do with life and death.

Galatians 2:20
"I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.

Okay....eternal salvation doesn't even enter into the picture when we're told to choose life over death, or when we're told to serve God instead of other Gods.

glory, you don't have to like me and you can make fun of me all you like, but you must see that we must die to ourselves daily, otherwise we will not conform to His image? if we are not dying to ourselves and allowing Him to live in us, then are we saved at all?

 

[archangel_300]

Here's how I see it...

I do believe God has given mankind free will. They have the free will to choose to do good and evil.
We have the free will to do whatever we like, but when it comes down to free will in terms of salvation I don't think so. At least that is what I gather from reading the scriptures.

The gospel call to "choose life" or "repent for the remission of sins" no one listens to that in their own natural self. Tell an atheist he/she must repent of their sin in order to enter heaven and they'll flatly reject your message... but guess what, that's how we all are. Before we are saved we are dead spiritually, we are dead in tresspasses and sins. Each of us is like Lazarus, dead in the tomb with no life whatsoever. Sin has severed our ability to understand God or anything that has to do with spiritual truth, we as our natural self plain and flatly rejects it. The only way we can come to choose life is if God calls us like he did with Lazarus... Christ stated "Come forth" and Lazarus came to life. Christ is the truth, the resurrection and the life without Him all of us would remain in spiritual death and blindness.

Christ called all his apostles ... "follow me". And on the outward appearance it looked like they chose to follow Christ but in reality Christ tells them "you did not choose me, I chose you."

One may take a look at this and think it's unfair... but none of us are deserving of God or His kingdom.
If no one chooses God in the first place and God decides to choose people so that they respond to the gospel call and thus it takes the appearance that they made a freewill decision then who can fault God?

When Judgment Day comes some will enter into eternal life while others receive *justice*.
I'm completely convinced that no one who stands before God on that day can truly say "I wanted you and I sought after you with all my heart but since I was not chosen I'm now facing the penalty for my sin". No one who seeks after Christ is rejected by Him.

 

[DarcyLu]

Here's how I see it...

I do believe God has given mankind free will. They have the free will to choose to do good and evil.
We have the free will to do whatever we like, but when it comes down to free will in terms of salvation I don't think so. At least that is what I gather from reading the scriptures.

The gospel call to "choose life" or "repent for the remission of sins" no one listens to that in their own natural self. Tell an atheist he/she must repent of their sin in order to enter heaven and they'll flatly reject your message... but guess what, that's how we all are. Before we are saved we are dead spiritually, we are dead in tresspasses and sins. Each of us is like Lazarus, dead in the tomb with no life whatsoever. Sin has severed our ability to understand God or anything that has to do with spiritual truth, we as our natural self plain and flatly rejects it. The only way we can come to choose life is if God calls us like he did with Lazarus... Christ stated "Come forth" and Lazarus came to life. Christ is the truth, the resurrection and the life without Him all of us would remain in spiritual death and blindness.

Christ called all his apostles ... "follow me". And on the outward appearance it looked like they chose to follow Christ but in reality Christ tells them "you did not choose me, I chose you."

One may take a look at this and think it's unfair... but none of us are deserving of God or His kingdom.
If no one chooses God in the first place and God decides to choose people so that they respond to the gospel call and thus it takes the appearance that they made a freewill decision then who can fault God?

When Judgment Day comes some will enter into eternal life while others receive *justice*.
I'm completely convinced that no one who stands before God on that day can truly say "I wanted you and I sought after you with all my heart but since I was not chosen I'm now facing the penalty for my sin". No one who seeks after Christ is rejected by Him.

agree 100% archangel!

 

[Mysteryman]

He knew we would choose Him before we knew we would choose Him.

i'm not making fun of you glory, it just made me laugh, say it 5 times fast. lol

predestination is a pre determination by God. He chose the Israelites, He chose Moses and it was not because Moses chose Him, God has a plan and He already knows exactly what that plan is. do you think He created Adam and Eve not knowing they would sin? did He create satan, not knowing what satan would do? no - God knows all from beginning to end and He is in control of it all.

Our free will comes into play with chosing to abiding in Christ, chosing not to sin.

Hi Darcy

I agree with you here.

And I am sure that God knew in his foreknowledge, that you , a believer, in the body of Christ, would doubt his Word, that we will not be a part of the wrath (tribulation) of God. Yet, he still chose you to be a part of the body of Christ and the gathering up of the saints just prior to the tribulation. This is because of what Peter said in II Peter 2:1 - 3. "Turth will be evil spoken of"

Keep your eyes on the Hope Darcy, and not on the tribulation of God, which is not accounted for the Church.

And be not concerned with your salvation, for your salvation is sure. But be concerned about your inheritance. For it is your inheritance, or part of it, that can be lost.

Bless

 

[change]

archangel_300 wrote:

If God chooses some people (not based on anything we do) and not others who can fault him? There is no difference between me and another sinner... we are all transgressors of the law. There is nothing in and of ourselves that warrants any sort of merit from God.

-

Romans 9:10 And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac 11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), 12 it was said to her, “The older shall serve the younger.â€[d] 13 As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.â€[e]

What do you understand from this scripture?

 

[archangel_300]

archangel_300 wrote:

[quote:7bzp0djk]If God chooses some people (not based on anything we do) and not others who can fault him? There is no difference between me and another sinner... we are all transgressors of the law. There is nothing in and of ourselves that warrants any sort of merit from God.

-

Romans 9:10 And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac 11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), 12 it was said to her, “The older shall serve the younger.â€[d] 13 As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.â€[e]

What do you understand from this scripture?[/quote:7bzp0djk]

I see this verse as saying God's purpose in election has nothing to do with our works or any merit from within ourselves but rather has everything to do with Him who calls. Salvation cannot be attained by good works of the law but is rather obtain through God's selective calling.

But I assume you were trying to point out a flaw in the previous statement I made?

 

[glorydaz]

Okay....eternal salvation doesn't even enter into the picture when we're told to choose life over death, or when we're told to serve God instead of other Gods.

glory, you don't have to like me and you can make fun of me all you like, but you must see that we must die to ourselves daily, otherwise we will not conform to His image? if we are not dying to ourselves and allowing Him to live in us, then are we saved at all?

It has nothing to do with whether I "like" you or not. This is my quote that you found incorrect..."We have free will to choose God...to accept Christ's calling, as you say."

Then you proceeded to correct me. You continue to bring up "dying daily to self" and making statements like, "but you must see" as if I don't understand the concept. We weren't talking about our Christian walk, we were talking about our choosing Christ. Remember those two verses I posted? Choose life or death? They are not talking about "dying daily to self." And yet you continue to bring that up. It would be nice if we could stick to the topic under discussion. How about...take up your cross and follow me? That would be more appropriate to this issue of our "choosing" Christ. And you'll notice, it requires our choosing to take up our cross and follow.

Jesus says, Come to me all ye who are weary and heavy laden and I will give you rest. Why are we told to come? Why are we told to repent? Does that not confirm what I said about "accepting Christ's calling?" And yet this conversation still goes on. Does He say that because we are unable to answer that call? Whosoever implies choice...some respond and some resist.

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

At the cross, Christ reconciled mankind to God...He opened the prison doors and set the captives free. Satan can no longer blind man to the truth of the Gospel.

For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

As we partake of the grace of God, we must exercise that measure of faith Christ gives with His grace. For by grace are ye saved through faith. God lays it all out before us...Christ is lifted up, but we must choose to look. God has given man the full sovereign power to decide for himself to "come". Which is why we're told to come...we're commanded to "repent"...we instructed to "enter".

And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

 

[change]

archangel_300 wrote:

[quote:2gimioxs]If God chooses some people (not based on anything we do) and not others who can fault him? There is no difference between me and another sinner... we are all transgressors of the law. There is nothing in and of ourselves that warrants any sort of merit from God.

-

[quote:2gimioxs]Romans 9:10 And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac 11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), 12 it was said to her, “The older shall serve the younger.â€[d] 13 As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.â€[e]

What do you understand from this scripture?[/quote:2gimioxs]

I see this verse as saying God's purpose in election has nothing to do with our works or any merit from within ourselves but rather has everything to do with Him who calls. Salvation cannot be attained by good works of the law but is rather obtain through God's selective calling.

But I assume you were trying to point out a flaw in the previous statement I made?[/quote:2gimioxs]

Did God chose to love Jacob and hate Esau for no apparent reason? The Almighty knows what we are going to be before we are born. So God is telling us to love when he himself hate without a reason. What kind of God is that? I thought God was love.

No one is saying that you can obtain salvation from works but faith without works is dead. No one has more faith than Jesus but he also show us his work by keeping God's law.

 

[truthlover]

Archangel wrote,

"No one is ever going to come to the Judgment throne of God and say "I truly wanted you and desired for salvation but I was not chosen by you". Every single person that is judged by God and ends up in hell never wants Christ anyway."

Well, what about the poor souls who cry "Lord, Lord" on judgement day, and hear "I never kmew you.'"?

And then there are the "By this we know's" scattered through scripture. What I'm trying to say is, the question, "What must I do to be saved?" seems honored by the Spirit. The question could be rhetorical, but that's a big gamble to take. It could actually mean that I not only have to choose salvation, but I must do what I must to see it through, i.e. pursue holiness. We know that liars are rejected. What if I say "I believe" but am lying? And am in denial or confused and don't know that I'm lying?

Fortunately, His sheep know His voice, and can ask Him about all this. In fact, since we are saved through faith, which comes from hearing, asking Him how we are doing seems like a pretty good idea.

truthlover

 

[glorydaz]

And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; ]whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

[/quote
quote]

Now you're just being stubborn. This has nothing to do with "on a daily basis". I have set before you 'life or death, blessing or cursing". Choose to serve other gods or choose to serve the Lord. I can see you're more interested in being right than in being corrected, so read the verses however you like. They are quite plain to me.

BTW Why are we commanded by God to repent?

so this verse does not say "choose you this day whom ye will serve" - doesn't this mean on a daily basis?

[quote="Joshua 24:15":2588uef4]And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; ]whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

[/quote:2588uef4]
This verse is saying to choose to serve the one true God or false gods....to serve satan, as we all did before we were saved, or to choose God. On a daily basis, we choose to serve the flesh (self) or God. One is before salvation and one is after salvation.