Can Eternal Life exist in the Second Death?

[chessman]

Please consider that Satan used to be called Lucifer.

As an angel Satan is/was a son of God.

The angels were created by God who is the Father of spirits.


JLB

okay. But neither Lucifer nor Satan received the gift of Eternal Life so I don't see any relevance to the OP question.

Please, please, please consider that John said: Jesus Christ.This one is the true God and eternal life.

Does Jesus go to the LoF with Satan?

Also, please consider that Jesus spoke of a place called Gehenna where God can destroy both the bodies and souls of men, then John visioned a Lake of Fire where all those NOT gifted with Eternal Life (such as Satan) were sent, then called it The Second Death.

 

[JLB]

okay. But neither Lucifer nor Satan received the gift of Eternal Life so I don't see any relevance to the OP question.

Do you believe Lucifer as a son of God, never possessed the life he has from God?

What kind of life did Lucifer posses as a son of God, if not eternal life?

How can he continue to exist forever, in not by eternal life.

He exists forever and ever.

What is not eternal about that?

Please explain.


JLB

 

[chessman]

Is it your opinion that the time Adam spent on Earth after he sinned is a better definition of The Second Death than the one I posted?
...

Can you answer the question above as to whether you think Adam's time on Earth after he sinned is a picture of The Second Death or not?

Remember, I'm still waiting on your response to the above question. I've answered your questions. Some three times or more.

Do you believe Lucifer as a son of God, never possessed the life he has from God?

JLB

Lucifer possessed the life he had from God. Which, Biblically speaking, is NOT Eternal Life (the OP topic) as I've said at least three times. If you know a verse that says either Lucifer or Satan possesses (or possessed) the gift of Eternal Life, post it. Otherwise your just going nowhere over and over again.

What kind of life did Lucifer posses as a son of God, if not eternal life?

the kind that's never called Eternal Life. I checked. Nowhere does the Bible say Lucifer or Satan was gifted with God's Eternal Life. You can speculate on it all you want, but it ain't in the Bible.

How can he continue to exist forever, in not by eternal life.

JLB

That's your complex question again that has two out of context assumptions in it still. Answer those first.

What does Lucifer have to do with the gift of Eternal Life given to a believer?

Where does it say Satan has been gifted with Eternal Life?

Please explain.

JLB

If it's not logical or Biblical I cannot explain your assumptive and complex question. Post a Scripture that states the Devil is a believer who has been gifted with Eternal Life, then we'll discuss it.

"I. Complex Question: the fallacy of phrasing a question that, by the way it is worded, assumes something not contextually granted, assumes something not true, or assumes a false dichotomy."​

http://philosophy.lander.edu/logic/complex.html

 

[JLB]

Chessman said -

Remember, I'm still waiting on your response to the above question. I've answered your questions. Some three times or more.

You never gave the scripture that proves it was something other than eternal life that sustains those people and the devil in the lake of fire forever and ever.

However, you did say, "I don't know", so I will share why I mentioned the verse about about Adam.

... but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die."

My point: Adam died on the day he ate the of the tree, yet he was still existing.

Death does not necessarily mean cease to exist.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Chessman said -

Lucifer possessed the life he had from God. Which, Biblically speaking, is NOT Eternal Life

Oh, Biblically speaking.

I'm sorry, I have never read that in the bible.

I learn something new every day.

Angels do not know God?

Since it's biblically speaking, please just show me the scripture that says angels do not posses eternal life.

You already have not shown where it is something OTHER THAN eternal life that keeps people and the devil alive forever and ever in the lake of fire, which is the second death.

I sure hope you have a scripture that shows angels do not have eternal life, since this is biblically speaking.

What you are going to discover here, Chessman, is that an angel or a person can have eternal life and lose it, or they never lose eternal life and are sustained forever in the lake of fire.

One or the other.




Thanks JLB

 

[chessman]

I sure hope you have a scripture that shows angels do not have eternal life, since this is biblically speaking.

Thanks JLB

I do. So do you. You just ignore it:

1 John 5:11-12 And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. The one who has the Son has the life; the one who does not have the Son of God does not have the life. ​

Eternal life is in the Son. The one who does not have the Son DOES NOT have the life.

Matthew 25:41 Then he will also say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you accursed ones, into the eternal fire that has been prepared for the devil and his angels!
​

The Devil and his Angels are told to depart from The Son. The Devil has Eternal Fire not Eternal Life. You equate Eternal Fire to Eternal Life, not me or the Bible.

 

[FreeGrace]

What is it that sustains the false prophet and the devil in the lake of fire, which is the second death, so they they continue to exist there FOREVER AND EVER, if it's not eternal life?

You keep asking the wrong question. No one is "sustained" in the second DEATH. They are DEAD. DEAD doesn't need sustaining.

I'm still waiting for the scripture that shows us, it is definitely not eternal life that enables those who are cast into the lake of fire to exist forever and ever.

Why do you ASSUME that those in the second DEATH are sustained by eternal life anyway? There are no verses that indicate that those in the second death have any kind of life. So, where does your viewpoint come from?

Scripture!

Right, so show us your Scripture that indicates that those in the second DEATH have any kind of LIFE.

Ive heard all your insults and opinions, what I am waiting for is the scripture that will clear up this matter of eternally existing in the lake of fire forever and ever.

Please identify what "insults" you've heard from me. Your insinuation is false.

How can these who are cast into the lake of fire, continue to exist forever and ever?

They exist in DEATH.

Who gives them this ability?

Another wrong question. Death isn't an ability. It's a condition. Being eternally separated from God is not an "ability" to exist. How silly.

 

[FreeGrace]

Yes. 2

Love the icons.

 

[FreeGrace]

Please consider that Satan used to be called Lucifer.

As an angel Satan is/was a son of God.

The angels were created by God who is the Father of spirits.


JLB

So what? That proves nothing. Was satan/lucifer ever "born again"? No. End of discussion about satan.

Only those "born again" have eternal life, and are qualified to live with God forever. Col 1:12

 

[FreeGrace]

Oh, Biblically speaking.

I'm sorry, I have never read that in the bible.

So, you think satan was "born again"??? Where in the world did you get that idea from?

 

[JLB]

So, you think satan was "born again"??? Where in the world did you get that idea from?

Why would you think an angel would need to be born again, to be considered God's son?

son's of God is a reference to angels.

If you have a scripture that teaches us angels do not have eternal life, then please post it.


JLB

 

[JLB]

FreeGrace said -

You keep asking the wrong question. No one is "sustained" in the second DEATH. They are DEAD. DEAD doesn't need sustaining.

The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. Revelation 20:10

What is it that enables these to continue to exist forever and ever in the lake of fire, if not eternal life.

You are going to have to do better than: "That's not the right question".



JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

Why would you think an angel would need to be born again, to be considered God's son?

You've completely missed the point. Only those who have been BORN AGAIN have eternal life.

Why is the idea that existence and eternal life aren't the same?

If you have a scripture that teaches us angels do not have eternal life, then please post it.JLB

Since you believe that angels have eternal LIFE, please post your verses. But I'll help you out here. There aren't any.

For your assumption to be proven, you need to provide verses that SAY that angels have eternal life.

You've been given verses that say that those born again have eternal life. That means no one else.

 

[FreeGrace]

The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. Revelation 20:10

Where do you read anything about having "eternal life" here? I sure don't. I think your assumptions are getting the better of you.

They will be tormented day and night forever and ever in the status of the second DEATH.

In fact, there is nothing about life in this verse. So why do you continue to believe that satan and everyone else in the LoF has any kind of "life"?

What they most clearly DO have is eternal death. Nothing more than that. Unless you can prove your assumption by verses that SAY what you believe.

What is it that enables these to continue to exist forever and ever in the lake of fire, if not eternal life.

Death. Obviously. And death does not need to be "enabled", as you assume.

You are going to have to do better than: "That's not the right question".JLB

In fact, I think you are going to have to do better than all your unfounded assumptions.

The Bible speaks very specifically about eternal life, and who has it. God IS eternal life. And He gives eternal life to those who have believed in His Son.

The only reason you must argue the way you do is because of your assumption that salvation can be lost. So you HAVE to argue that those with eternal life can exist in the LoF. Yet, all without any evidence from Scripture.

Your view equates eternal LIFE with eternal DEATH. That is absurd, obviously.

No one in the LoF will be alive. So, no one in the LoF will have life. They all have DEATH, which is eternal.

No one who possesses God's life, which is eternal life, can end up in the second DEATH. Impossible. And you haven't even come close to supporting your assumptions.

 

[JLB]

FreeGrace said -

Where do you read anything about having "eternal life" here? I sure don't. I think your assumptions are getting the better of you.

Ok Brother.

Please tell me then what it is, that cause's those who are cast into the lake of fire, to continue to exist forever and ever.

What other than eternal life, would have the ability to sustain those who are cast into the lake of fire, forever and ever?


Thanks JLB

 

[JLB]

I do. So do you. You just ignore it:

1 John 5:11-12 And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. The one who has the Son has the life; the one who does not have the Son of God does not have the life. ​

Eternal life is in the Son. The one who does not have the Son DOES NOT have the life.

Matthew 25:41 Then he will also say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you accursed ones, into the eternal fire that has been prepared for the devil and his angels!
​

The Devil and his Angels are told to depart from The Son. The Devil has Eternal Fire not Eternal Life. You equate Eternal Fire to Eternal Life, not me or the Bible.

Where can I go from Your Spirit? Or where can I flee from Your presence? 8 If I ascend into heaven, You are there; If I make my bed in hell, behold, You are there. Psalm 139:7-8

Angels when they were created such as Lucifer and Michael and Gabriel, are called the sons of God.

35 But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; 36 nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection. Luke 20:35-36


Equal to the angels = nor can they die!

Equal to the angels = sons of God.

• Either eternal life that they were granted, continues to keep them in a state of existence forever and ever.

• Or, they lose their eternal life, and something else keeps them in a state of existence forever and ever in the lake of fire being tormented day and night forever and ever, having no rest day or night.

The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. Revelation 20:10


JLB

 

[chessman]

Where can I go from Your Spirit? Or where can I flee from Your presence?

JLB

David posed a good question. Paul and John answers it:

You can go into Eternal Destruction, Eternal Fire, The Second Death "away from the presence of The Lord"

2 Thessalonians 1:8-9 ... pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his strength,​

 

[JLB]

David posed a good question. Paul and John answers it:

You can go into Eternal Destruction, Eternal Fire, The Second Death "away from the presence of The Lord"

2 Thessalonians 1:8-9 ... pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his strength,​

David in the Spirit, speaking by the Spirit, answers the question -

Where can I go from Your Spirit? Or where can I flee from Your presence? 8 If I ascend into heaven, You are there; If I make my bed in hell, behold, You are there. Psalm 139:7-8

The Eternal Spirit is there!



Now the question -


Please tell me then what it is, that cause's those who are cast into the lake of fire, to continue to exist forever and ever.

What other than eternal life, would have the ability to sustain those who are cast into the lake of fire, forever and ever?


Thanks JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

Ok Brother.

Please tell me then what it is, that cause's those who are cast into the lake of fire, to continue to exist forever and ever.

Why do you persist in the false idea that death requires some kind of "sustenance"? The whole point is this: death is NOT life. Life is NOT death. They are mutually exclusive.

What other than eternal life, would have the ability to sustain those who are cast into the lake of fire, forever and ever?
Thanks JLB

There is NO sustenance in death. There is only sustenance in life. For physical life is sustained by food, water and shelter. And if any of those are removed, physical life ends in DEATH. i.e., no more life.

But God's life is eternal. It CANNOT END. And He gives eternal life to those who believe in His Son. That life CANNOT end because it is God's life that He imparts to those who have believed.

Eternal life is sustained by God Himself.

There is no eternal life in the LoF. There is only death, which is NOT sustained.

Your questions are based on faulty assumptions.

 

[FreeGrace]

Now the question -

Please tell me then what it is, that cause's those who are cast into the lake of fire, to continue to exist forever and ever.

What other than eternal life, would have the ability to sustain those who are cast into the lake of fire, forever and ever?
Thanks JLB

You keep asking faulty questions. Death never requires "sustenance", such as life does. Death is the cessation of life, not a different kind of life. That's what you are missing, though I know WHY you keep missing it.

To accept the fact that death isn't life, proves that those who have been given eternal life will NEVER experience the second DEATH.

Instead of OSAS, how about this: once given eternal life, NEVER death. Can you refute that?

To do so would require verses to say that God actually removes eternal life from those who have it, OR,

God kills the life that He has given to those who have believed. That would mean that eternal life really isn't eternal at all, then.

So, which of these can you prove?