Can Eternal Life exist in the Second Death?

[JLB]

You keep asking faulty questions. Death never requires "sustenance", such as life does. Death is the cessation of life, not a different kind of life. That's what you are missing, though I know WHY you keep missing it.

To accept the fact that death isn't life, proves that those who have been given eternal life will NEVER experience the second DEATH.

Instead of OSAS, how about this: once given eternal life, NEVER death. Can you refute that?

To do so would require verses to say that God actually removes eternal life from those who have it, OR,

God kills the life that He has given to those who have believed. That would mean that eternal life really isn't eternal at all, then.

So, which of these can you prove?

I changed my question to suit you.

What the scripture says is tormented day and night forever and ever...

What is the source that causes these, who are cast into the lake of fire, to continue to exist forever and ever, if it is not eternal life?


The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.


If you can't give an explanation as to why these who have been cast into the lake of fire continue to exist apart from eternal life, then just say like Chessman, I don't know.




JLB

 

[JLB]

FreeGrace said -

God kills the life that He has given to those who have believed. That would mean that eternal life really isn't eternal at all, then.

I don't find where "God kills" the eternal life.

I find that being saved is predicated on believing.

If one stops believing and falls away, then the very substance of salvation that was obtained through believing, no longer abides within those who turn away and stop believing.

These who no longer believe have fallen back into unbelief.

Unbelievers have their part in the lake of fire.


JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

I changed my question to suit you.

What the scripture says is tormented day and night forever and ever...

Yes, it does say that.

What is the source that causes these, who are cast into the lake of fire, to continue to exist forever and ever, if it is not eternal life?

There is no "source" that causes anything. They exist in DEATH, not LIFE.

Your view equates death with life, which is absurd. Death doesn't need sustenance, unless you can prove that it does.

The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

If you can't give an explanation as to why these who have been cast into the lake of fire continue to exist apart from eternal life, then just say like Chessman, I don't know.JLB

I do know and I have told you repeatedly, but you merely continue to ignore, without reason, my answer. Death is NOT life. Not in any way.

Those in the LoF are DEAD, not alive. They do NOT require any kind of "sustenance". No more than dead bodies in a grave require some kind of "sustenance" to stay there.

Your assumptions are your problem. Your questions come from faulty assumptions that you cannot prove.

Death is not life. Never was, never will be. Those in the LoF will be DEAD eternally. Not alive. Not by any stretch.

 

[FreeGrace]

I changed my question to suit you.

What the scripture says is tormented day and night forever and ever...

Yes, it does say that.

What is the source that causes these, who are cast into the lake of fire, to continue to exist forever and ever, if it is not eternal life?

There is no "source" that causes anything. They exist in DEATH, not LIFE.

Your view equates death with life, which is absurd. Death doesn't need sustenance, unless you can prove that it does.

The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

If you can't give an explanation as to why these who have been cast into the lake of fire continue to exist apart from eternal life, then just say like Chessman, I don't know.JLB

I do know and I have told you repeatedly, but you merely continue to ignore, without reason, my answer. Death is NOT life. Not in any way.

Those in the LoF are DEAD, not alive. They do NOT require any kind of "sustenance". No more than dead bodies in a grave require some kind of "sustenance" to stay there.

Your assumptions are your problem. Your questions come from faulty assumptions that you cannot prove.

Death is not life. Never was, never will be. Those in the LoF will be DEAD eternally. Not alive. Not by any stretch.

 

[JLB]

Yes, it does say that.


There is no "source" that causes anything. They exist in DEATH, not LIFE.

Your view equates death with life, which is absurd. Death doesn't need sustenance, unless you can prove that it does.


I do know and I have told you repeatedly, but you merely continue to ignore, without reason, my answer. Death is NOT life. Not in any way.

Those in the LoF are DEAD, not alive. They do NOT require any kind of "sustenance". No more than dead bodies in a grave require some kind of "sustenance" to stay there.

Your assumptions are your problem. Your questions come from faulty assumptions that you cannot prove.

Death is not life. Never was, never will be. Those in the LoF will be DEAD eternally. Not alive. Not by any stretch.

What is the source of their existence in the lake of fire forever.

They exist forever and ever.

That sounds eternal to me.


JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

I don't find where "God kills" the eternal life.

Thank you. Correct.

I find that being saved is predicated on believing.

Irrelevant to this discussion. Please stay focused on the OP. It is not about being "saved". It is only about eternal life existing in the LoF.

If one stops believing and falls away, then the very substance of salvation that was obtained through believing, no longer abides within those who turn away and stop believing.

Salvation isn't a "substance" as you erroneously assume. That's another error of yours.

These who no longer believe have fallen back into unbelief.

Irrelevant to the OP.

Unbelievers have their part in the lake of fire.
JLB

So, again, you view is that those who were given eternal life, which God does not kill (per you), will exist in DEATH. That is contradictory and absurd.

The truth is that those who NEVER believed NEVER received eternal life. Which is why they will be cast into the LoF.

Those who have believed HAVE eternal life (Jn 5:24). Unless one wants to disagree with the very words of Jesus.

So, eternal life CANNOT exist in DEATH. That is contradictory.

 

[FreeGrace]

What is the source of their existence in the lake of fire forever.

Death.

They exist forever and ever.

While dead.

That sounds eternal to me.JLB

Yes!! Finally, you're getting it, maybe. They exist eternally DEAD. Not alive. Eternal life is LIFE, not DEATH. Got it?

The LoF is eternal DEATH. No life in it. Only death.

 

[chessman]

David in the Spirit, speaking by the Spirit, answers the question -

Where can I go from Your Spirit? Or where can I flee from Your presence? 8 If I ascend into heaven, You are there; If I make my bed in hell, behold, You are there. Psalm 139:7-8

David didn't use the Old English word "Hell" in Psalm 139. He spoke of the Hebrew Sheol. He's obviously not talking about the Second Death (the OP question). He's talking about the 1st Death (Sheol). And lying in "bed" there. Sound comfy?

He spoke of a place called Sheol where people are awaiting the GWTJ and then potentially The Second Death if they don't have the gift of Eternal Life. The place of the dead in between the 1st Death and the 2nd death. Unfortunately, you are using a Scripture that's off topic (again) to the Second Death topic.

Psalm 139:8 (LEB) If I ascend to heaven, there you are,and if I make my bed in Sheol, look! There you are.

Psalm 30:3 (LEB) O Yahweh, you have brought my life up from Sheol.You preserved me alive from among those going down to the pit. ​

He didn't think Sheol was the Second Death, because it's not. It's the time/place in between the 1st and the 2nd.

 

[JLB]

Death.


While dead.


Yes!! Finally, you're getting it, maybe. They exist eternally DEAD. Not alive. Eternal life is LIFE, not DEATH. Got it?

The LoF is eternal DEATH. No life in it. Only death.

The exist, being tormented day and night.

The second death does not terminate their existence.

So your answer is death causes them to continue to exist forever and ever?


JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

The exist, being tormented day and night.

Correct.

The second death does not terminate their existence.

Correct.

So your answer is death causes them to continue to exist forever and ever?

Are you actually following any of this discussion? I ask that, because your questions seem to indicate that you haven't understood a thing I've posted.

Instead of responding to my posts with comments, you ask questions that aren't relevant to the OP. How about taking my statements one at a time and responding to them individually, as I do your posts. If you don't understand a statement, say so. If you do and are able to refute it with Scripture please do so.

You keep assuming that there is "life" in the second death, as if they must be sustained in their existence. Why is that? Where in the Bible do you find any reference to existence in the second DEATH as anything but DEATH, and not life?

Do you understand that a dead body in the grave doesn't need to be sustained to be there? If you don't understand that, then there really is no point in further discussion.

If you do understand that, then you should understand that the soul in the LoF doesn't need sustenance to be there. The soul is spiritually dead, not alive. It is very simple, but your assumptions have gotten in the way of your understanding of the issue.

But I do understand why that is. You believe that people who have been given eternal life can end up in the LoF, which I've pointed out is impossible. That's the real problem here. You have made assumptions that aren't true, and are now trying to defend an absurd position.

 

[JLB]

Correct.


Correct.


Are you actually following any of this discussion? I ask that, because your questions seem to indicate that you haven't understood a thing I've posted.

Instead of responding to my posts with comments, you ask questions that aren't relevant to the OP. How about taking my statements one at a time and responding to them individually, as I do your posts. If you don't understand a statement, say so. If you do and are able to refute it with Scripture please do so.

You keep assuming that there is "life" in the second death, as if they must be sustained in their existence. Why is that? Where in the Bible do you find any reference to existence in the second DEATH as anything but DEATH, and not life?

Do you understand that a dead body in the grave doesn't need to be sustained to be there? If you don't understand that, then there really is no point in further discussion.

If you do understand that, then you should understand that the soul in the LoF doesn't need sustenance to be there. The soul is spiritually dead, not alive. It is very simple, but your assumptions have gotten in the way of your understanding of the issue.

But I do understand why that is. You believe that people who have been given eternal life can end up in the LoF, which I've pointed out is impossible. That's the real problem here. You have made assumptions that aren't true, and are now trying to defend an absurd position.

Yes!! Finally, you're getting it, maybe. They exist eternally DEAD. Not alive. Eternal life is LIFE, not DEATH. Got it?

The LoF is eternal DEATH. No life in it. Only death.

Based on this post of yours, it seems that you believe that it is death that causes them to continue to exist in the lake of fire.

Maybe you could clarify this.

Instead of responding to my posts with comments, you ask questions that aren't relevant to the OP. How about taking my statements one at a time and responding to them individually, as I do your posts. If you don't understand a statement, say so. If you do and are able to refute it with Scripture please do so.

You keep assuming that there is "life" in the second death, as if they must be sustained in their existence. Why is that? Where in the Bible do you find any reference to existence in the second DEATH as anything but DEATH, and not life?

Do you understand that a dead body in the grave doesn't need to be sustained to be there? If you don't understand that, then there really is no point in further discussion.

A dead body in a grave, is dead because the spirit within has left the body.

For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. James 2:26


In the second death, the spirit and soul are in the lake of fire being tormented day and night, unlike the dead body in the grave that is decaying and has no ability to be tormented.

These in the lake of fire do in fact have the ability to be tormented.

• Please show me what it is that causes these in the lake of fire to continue to exist, and experience the torment forever and ever.

JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

Based on this post of yours, it seems that you believe that it is death that causes them to continue to exist in the lake of fire.

No. Not even close. Death doesn't "cause" anything, nor does it require any sustenance to be in that state.

A dead body in a grave, is dead because the spirit within has left the body.

For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. James 2:26


In the second death, the spirit and soul are in the lake of fire being tormented day and night, unlike the dead body in the grave that is decaying and has no ability to be tormented.

These in the lake of fire do in fact have the ability to be tormented.

• Please show me what it is that causes these in the lake of fire to continue to exist, and experience the torment forever and ever. JLB

You need to stop this idea that there is a "cause" for death to exist. There isn't.

Seems a review of the meaning of life and death are in order here.

The Bible speaks of physical life and death, and spiritual life and death. Agreed?

When physical life dies, there is no longer physical life. There is only physical death. Agreed?

All persons are born spiritually dead. Agreed?

Those who have placed their faith in Jesus Christ have been given spiritual life, also called eternal life. Agreed?

You have previously agreed that God does not kill eternal life.

Everyone is born physically alive and spiritually dead. Agreed?

Those who have believed in Christ are spiritually alive. Agreed?

When the body is dead, there is no physical life left. Agreed?

When the believer is made spiritually alive (Eph 2:5), it is no longer dead. Agreed?

Please respond to each of these statements with either yes or no. If no, please cite verses that support your disagreement.

Thanks.

 

[th1b.taylor]

Freegrace,
From past experience that JLB denies, you're beating your head against a brick wall, you cannot win. The issue, as you have tried to point out lies in the world's defining death. In better than 19 years of on-line ministry I have beaten my head on this brick wall many times and just as people, today, do not understand the Second Death, neither do they understand that all men were and are created in the image of the Father. The Father is eternal as are we, in spirit.

If a man or woman can die twice, in the first place, just as God teaches, with their definition of Death... How? With the biblical definition, this is only logical, it is what God has said and God did speak the galaxies into being. What could possibly be beyond God's power?

But you see, a lot of this issue begins with some understanding Hell as the Abyss, a.k.a. the Lake of Fire. Hell, is Sheol, not the eternal existence of the Lost. And further, God is Spirit and does not look like us unless you consider Jesus but, then, Jesus came after Adam and it is Jesus (John 1:1-5) that created us. We are created in His image before He was/is Jesus. We are created in His image before He died on the cross, so what is that image is the question.

Every human being has the spirit element of our being and it has, long, been my understanding that this Spirit Element is where the image of God is found and Death, as the natural men understand it never applies to the spirit.

Good luck in your discussion that is trying to turn into an argument.

 

[FreeGrace]

Freegrace,
From past experience that JLB denies, you're beating your head against a brick wall, you cannot win.

Given that JBL has not refuted anything I've posted, I think it is obvious that he has not won. Not that I go for a "win", but that God's Word is properly understood.

The issue, as you have tried to point out lies in the world's defining death. In better than 19 years of on-line ministry I have beaten my head on this brick wall many times and just as people, today, do not understand the Second Death, neither do they understand that all men were and are created in the image of the Father. The Father is eternal as are we, in spirit.

I'm hoping my previous post (132) will jar him into reality about the issue.

If a man or woman can die twice, in the first place, just as God teaches, with their definition of Death... How? With the biblical definition, this is only logical, it is what God has said and God did speak the galaxies into being. What could possibly be beyond God's power?

Great question for JBL! I doubt that he can answer from his present perspective.

But you see, a lot of this issue begins with some understanding Hell as the Abyss, a.k.a. the Lake of Fire. Hell, is Sheol, not the eternal existence of the Lost. And further, God is Spirit and does not look like us unless you consider Jesus but, then, Jesus came after Adam and it is Jesus (John 1:1-5) that created us. We are created in His image before He was/is Jesus. We are created in His image before He died on the cross, so what is that image is the question.

Correct. I believe the "image of God" refers specifically to our soul/spirit that God created ex nihilio when He breathed into Adam's lungs the "breath of life". Just as God is Triune, so He created man with a body, soul, and a human spirit with which to worship Him (Jn 4:24). But when Adam sinned, his human spirit died immediately, which separated him from God, which he could not resolve. Which is why God in grace provided all that man needs to restore relationship with Him.

Because of Adam's sin, all humans are born physically alive but spiritually dead, and stay that way until they believe in Jesus Christ as Savior, at which point God regenerates their human spirit (born again, regeneration, made alive). Only regenerated people can worship God properly.

Every human being has the spirit element of our being and it has, long, been my understanding that this Spirit Element is where the image of God is found and Death, as the natural men understand it never applies to the spirit.

Agreed.

Good luck in your discussion that is trying to turn into an argument.

The other thread on OSAS got closed down for that reason. I started this thread from a different perspective, that of philosophy, in order to prove that those who have been born again cannot ever experience the second death.

And we see JBL having a very difficult time trying to defend his views in that light.

 

[for_his_glory]

TimW's posts #67 and 71 are very clear, as were mine. How about this: as to life, it be an existence apart from God. Is that better.

Every soul created by God will exist somewhere for eternity. Those who have believed in Christ will have eternal life, which is God's life, and will live with Him for eternity.

Those who never believed do not have God's life, which is eternal life. They will spend eternity in the second death.

Death is not life. Existence in the LoF is death, not life.


The Bible never describes existence in the LoF as a life, much less eternal life. It is eternal death. That's where unbelievers will exist forever.


That is exactly my point.

Those who are resurrected to be with the Lord will have an eternal life (existence) basking in Gods glory. Those who are cast in the lake of fire will not literally be consumed by an eternal literal fire as fire here means torment, destruction or as being destroyed or broken down like someone saying that we are going to destroy you and drag your name through the mud. They are not literally destroyed, but brought down to a lower level. Those in the lake of fire will have an existence of weeping and gnashing of teeth for the destruction and torment they will face for eternity. Death means separation from God as their eternal destiny (life) is the lake of fire. If death here meant not to exist anymore than what would be the purpose of the the second death and being resurrected to stand in the great white throne judgement.

Exactly.


But He didn't.[/QUOTE]

You keep saying death is an existence and if one is existing then it has to be some form of life. Not like the life we have now as being alive here on earth, not like eternal life with the Father, but yet a form of a tormented eternal life of existence in the lake of fire for eternity. We know flesh and blood can not inherit the kingdom of God and many will be alive when Christ returns. Those who have physically died in Christ will be changed in a twinkling of an eye to meet Him in the air just as we who are physically alive will be gathered with them, but yet we do not know physically what we will look like for many will be only dust in the ground when they are resurrected to be with the Lord forever. Those who have physically died and have no part of the inheritance also will be only dust in the ground depending how long they have been asleep, but yet will be transformed and meet those who are alive to stand before God in His great white throne judgment and will be cast into the lake of fire. There existence will be an eternal life of torment being separated from God forever. Scripture also calls it outer darkness and in my own minds eye I see it as not only being separated from God for ever, but like looking through a window in all their torment seeing that God does exist and they will never be a part of His glory. Eternal death is separation from God, but yet as we see in scripture they do exist in a tormented state forever as one has to have some form of life to exist even though it is not like the physical life we have now as all will be changed in a twinkling of an eye, but yet no one knows what anyone in Christ or those separated from Christ will look like.

God gives us a description as in fire and brimstone which can be used literal as in Sodom and Gomorrah burned to ashes and as a metaphor for torment, suffering, punishment or as Matthew 8:12 describes it as outer darkness. The New Testament description is a bottomless pit (abyss) (Revelation 20:3), a lake (Revelation 20:14), darkness (Matthew 25:30), death (Revelation 2:11), destruction (2 Thessalonians 1:9), everlasting torment (Revelation 20:10), a place of wailing and gnashing of teeth (Matthew 25:30), and a place of gradated punishment (Matthew 11:20-24; Luke 12:47-48; Revelation 20:12-13), everlasting fire Matthew 25:41, everlasting punishment, Matthew 25:46, lake of fire burning with brimstone.

 

[FreeGrace]

You keep saying death is an existence and if one is existing then it has to be some form of life.

Nope. What kind of existence is a physical body in when buried? The existence of DEATH, not any kind of life at all.

Not like the life we have now as being alive here on earth, not like eternal life with the Father, but yet a form of a tormented eternal life of existence in the lake of fire for eternity.

The Bible properly describes the existence as an eternal DEATH, not life.

We know flesh and blood can not inherit the kingdom of God and many will be alive when Christ returns. Those who have physically died in Christ will be changed in a twinkling of an eye to meet Him in the air just as we who are physically alive will be gathered with them, but yet we do not know physically what we will look like for many will be only dust in the ground when they are resurrected to be with the Lord forever. Those who have physically died and have no part of the inheritance also will be only dust in the ground depending how long they have been asleep, but yet will be transformed and meet those who are alive to stand before God in His great white throne judgment and will be cast into the lake of fire. There existence will be an eternal life of torment being separated from God forever. Scripture also calls it outer darkness and in my own minds eye I see it as not only being separated from God for ever, but like looking through a window in all their torment seeing that God does exist and they will never be a part of His glory.

Correct.

Eternal death is separation from God, but yet as we see in scripture they do exist in a tormented state forever as one has to have some form of life to exist even though it is not like the physical life we have now as all will be changed in a twinkling of an eye, but yet no one knows what anyone in Christ or those separated from Christ will look like.

No, it is only an assumption that there "has to have some form of life". Who said so? All in the LoF are existing in a state of death. Spiritual death. No life at all. All death, all the time.

God gives us a description as in fire and brimstone which can be used literal as in Sodom and Gomorrah burned to ashes and as a metaphor for torment, suffering, punishment or as Matthew 8:12 describes it as outer darkness. The New Testament description is a bottomless pit (abyss) (Revelation 20:3), a lake (Revelation 20:14), darkness (Matthew 25:30), death (Revelation 2:11), destruction (2 Thessalonians 1:9), everlasting torment (Revelation 20:10), a place of wailing and gnashing of teeth (Matthew 25:30), and a place of gradated punishment (Matthew 11:20-24; Luke 12:47-48; Revelation 20:12-13), everlasting fire Matthew 25:41, everlasting punishment, Matthew 25:46, lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Yes, it is eternal. But your assumption that there "has to have some kind of life" is wrong.

Just as a physical body is in a state of death in the ground, so also the spiritually dead soul will exist in the LoF.

You're making the same erroneous assumptions as JLB does. Read my last few posts. Esp 132, and please feel free to either agree or disagree with my statements. If you disagree, please explain why so for those you do disagree with.

Thanks.

 

[JLB]

th1.b taylor said -

all men were and are created in the image of the Father. The Father is eternal as are we, in spirit.

Agreed!


JLB

 

[JLB]

No. Not even close. Death doesn't "cause" anything, nor does it require any sustenance to be in that state.

You need to stop this idea that there is a "cause" for death to exist. There isn't.

Seems a review of the meaning of life and death are in order here.

The Bible speaks of physical life and death, and spiritual life and death. Agreed?

When physical life dies, there is no longer physical life. There is only physical death. Agreed?

All persons are born spiritually dead. Agreed?

Those who have placed their faith in Jesus Christ have been given spiritual life, also called eternal life. Agreed?

You have previously agreed that God does not kill eternal life.

Everyone is born physically alive and spiritually dead. Agreed?

Those who have believed in Christ are spiritually alive. Agreed?

When the body is dead, there is no physical life left. Agreed?

When the believer is made spiritually alive (Eph 2:5), it is no longer dead. Agreed?

Please respond to each of these statements with either yes or no. If no, please cite verses that support your disagreement.

Thanks.

You need to answer my question, which you have not.

Please show me what it is that causes these in the lake of fire to continue to exist, and experience the torment forever and ever.

If you don't answer, then I will just assume you don't really know.

Which means that it may or may not be eternal life that causes those beings to continue to exist in the lake of fire, forever and ever.

JLB

 

[JLB]

Exactly.


But He didn't.

You keep saying death is an existence and if one is existing then it has to be some form of life. Not like the life we have now as being alive here on earth, not like eternal life with the Father, but yet a form of a tormented eternal life of existence in the lake of fire for eternity. We know flesh and blood can not inherit the kingdom of God and many will be alive when Christ returns. Those who have physically died in Christ will be changed in a twinkling of an eye to meet Him in the air just as we who are physically alive will be gathered with them, but yet we do not know physically what we will look like for many will be only dust in the ground when they are resurrected to be with the Lord forever. Those who have physically died and have no part of the inheritance also will be only dust in the ground depending how long they have been asleep, but yet will be transformed and meet those who are alive to stand before God in His great white throne judgment and will be cast into the lake of fire. There existence will be an eternal life of torment being separated from God forever. Scripture also calls it outer darkness and in my own minds eye I see it as not only being separated from God for ever, but like looking through a window in all their torment seeing that God does exist and they will never be a part of His glory. Eternal death is separation from God, but yet as we see in scripture they do exist in a tormented state forever as one has to have some form of life to exist even though it is not like the physical life we have now as all will be changed in a twinkling of an eye, but yet no one knows what anyone in Christ or those separated from Christ will look like.

God gives us a description as in fire and brimstone which can be used literal as in Sodom and Gomorrah burned to ashes and as a metaphor for torment, suffering, punishment or as Matthew 8:12 describes it as outer darkness. The New Testament description is a bottomless pit (abyss) (Revelation 20:3), a lake (Revelation 20:14), darkness (Matthew 25:30), death (Revelation 2:11), destruction (2 Thessalonians 1:9), everlasting torment (Revelation 20:10), a place of wailing and gnashing of teeth (Matthew 25:30), and a place of gradated punishment (Matthew 11:20-24; Luke 12:47-48; Revelation 20:12-13), everlasting fire Matthew 25:41, everlasting punishment, Matthew 25:46, lake of fire burning with brimstone.[/QUOTE]

:amen

 

[JLB]

Nope. What kind of existence is a physical body in when buried? The existence of DEATH, not any kind of life at all.


The Bible properly describes the existence as an eternal DEATH, not life.


Correct.


No, it is only an assumption that there "has to have some form of life". Who said so? All in the LoF are existing in a state of death. Spiritual death. No life at all. All death, all the time.


Yes, it is eternal. But your assumption that there "has to have some kind of life" is wrong.

Just as a physical body is in a state of death in the ground, so also the spiritually dead soul will exist in the LoF.

You're making the same erroneous assumptions as JLB does. Read my last few posts. Esp 132, and please feel free to either agree or disagree with my statements. If you disagree, please explain why so for those you do disagree with.

Thanks.

An eternal being does not cease to exist.

They are in a state of torment, which of course means they are aware of this torment and have no rest from this torment.


JLB