Can true Christians lose their salvation ?

[Imagican]

Fran,

Wish I had gotten back to this thread sooner.

I felt the EXACT same way when I read YOUR post. That you have offered MUCH in discernment of that which is of The Spirit. Whlle reading what you offered it was as if I were reading something that 'I' had written, (or would have if able to put it in the SAME words). Now, how do you reacon that THAT happened? How someone like me and someone like you could have the SAME understanding as regards to Salvation. Amazing isn't it?

I've told you before that you may well be amazed if you truly knew how similar our understanding is compared to that of 'other denominations'.

And now, listen to this: What you have offered is practically identical in 'nature' as to what I understand. Yet I have NEVER been 'taught' the understanding that I have by MEN other than those that penned The Bible. I have NO FORMAL learning other than what I have obtained through The Word and guidance of The Spirit. I will say that I have certainly been exposed to much here on the forums and that I am quite sure that there has been 'some' understanding gathered through discussion. But I came here fully 'loaded for bear' and from what others can attest that have witnessed what I have to offer, little has CHANGED.

My point?

That it IS possible to come to understanding WITHOUT the guidance of ANY denominational church. That God is able THROUGH the Spirit to guide us as HE sees fit. That He is able to offer what we are able to bear and that this is NOT confined to or limited to a 'denomination'. That would say that I am a 'member of the CC' regardless of being aware of it may 'hold some water'. I cannot say. But that what I DO understand is that which has been revealed to me 'without' the guidance of ANY denomination is a statement in TRUTH.

Just offered this for the same reason that I believe you did: to acknowledge that what you have spoken is 'truth' regardless of many who would deny it for lack of understanding. It's NOT a 'fault thing'. For each is ONLY able to grasp what is offered. Some NEVER NEED to know as much as others and are therefore 'less burdened'. But some ARE given more and through the addition are held even MORE responsible for their understanding.

For sin itself is KNOWLEDGE and the MORE one understands it and it's implications, the MORE they are responsible to uphold.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[francisdesales]

Fran,

Wish I had gotten back to this thread sooner.

I felt the EXACT same way when I read YOUR post. That you have offered MUCH in discernment of that which is of The Spirit. Whlle reading what you offered it was as if I were reading something that 'I' had written, (or would have if able to put it in the SAME words). Now, how do you reacon that THAT happened? How someone like me and someone like you could have the SAME understanding as regards to Salvation. Amazing isn't it?

Well, I know we do agree on quite a bit, and you are not bound by the particular errors of Luther and his anthropological viewopints that hinder many Protestants. Perhaps you have heard the Catholic explanation, or other Protestants who ARE in virtual agreement with Catholics on this issue, such as Unread Typo or Drew or Stranger...

I certainly am not surprised that men not hindered by the lenses of Luther are able to discern the basics of the teachings of the Apostles on this matter using the Scriptures, especially those who are well-read and take its meaning to heart...

And now, listen to this: What you have offered is practically identical in 'nature' as to what I understand. Yet I have NEVER been 'taught' the understanding that I have by MEN other than those that penned The Bible. I have NO FORMAL learning other than what I have obtained through The Word and guidance of The Spirit.

I don't have any "formal" training, either. I read the Scriptures with the Catechism as a guide. Of course, the Spirit helps me to understand His revelation to His people, though I would not venture to say that my understanding is perfect.

My point?

That it IS possible to come to understanding WITHOUT the guidance of ANY denominational church. That God is able THROUGH the Spirit to guide us as HE sees fit. That He is able to offer what we are able to bear and that this is NOT confined to or limited to a 'denomination'.

I don't doubt that God can blow where He wills. I just believe that this is not the ordinary way for God revealing Himself on every subject. Thus, we can not be certain of our own understanding WITHOUT the guidance of another, just as Philip offered guidance to the Ethiopian eunuch. Sure, the Ethiopian no doubt knew SOMETHING about God, but on a certain specific, he needed guidance. I believe the Church offers reliable guidance on all subjects that touch upon theology. This does not deny that God can come to you and touch you on the basic theological realities of salvation.

That would say that I am a 'member of the CC' regardless of being aware of it may 'hold some water'. I cannot say. But that what I DO understand is that which has been revealed to me 'without' the guidance of ANY denomination is a statement in TRUTH.

Maybe God is leading you to become Catholic. Who can say... But I do know that EVERY religion has some truth to it. Only one has THE truth, the one that has Christ as its head.

Just offered this for the same reason that I believe you did: to acknowledge that what you have spoken is 'truth' regardless of many who would deny it for lack of understanding. It's NOT a 'fault thing'. For each is ONLY able to grasp what is offered. Some NEVER NEED to know as much as others and are therefore 'less burdened'. But some ARE given more and through the addition are held even MORE responsible for their understanding.

Yes, that is agreeable. God does not sow the same seeds among us all. The parable of the sower and seeds, along with the parable of the Talents shows that God grants various blessings upon whom He wills. I am very fortunate that He has seen fit to grant me so many blessings - who knows what problems I would be in without the full support of His Church. I suppose God's blessings are "enough" for each of us. Some (like me) need more, so here I am.

Regards

 

[Catholic Crusader]

...Maybe God is leading you to become Catholic. Who can say...

Holy Moley!

 

[Veritas]

I certainly am not surprised that men not hindered by the lenses of Luther are able to discern the basics of the teachings of the Apostles on this matter using the Scriptures, especially those who are well-read and take its meaning to heart...

Hey! what lenses! you know Protestents think Catholics see things through "other" "lenses" as well right? ...eh... just thought I'd point that out.

 

[Catholic Crusader]

I certainly am not surprised that men not hindered by the lenses of Luther are able to discern the basics of the teachings of the Apostles on this matter using the Scriptures, especially those who are well-read and take its meaning to heart...

Hey! what lenses! you know Protestents think Catholics see things through "other" "lenses" as well right? ...eh... just thought I'd point that out.

But we defer to the Magisterium (teaching office) of the Church in matters of doctrine and dogma. In doctrine, I have no lense, other then obedience

 

[francisdesales]

I certainly am not surprised that men not hindered by the lenses of Luther are able to discern the basics of the teachings of the Apostles on this matter using the Scriptures, especially those who are well-read and take its meaning to heart...

Hey! what lenses! you know Protestents think Catholics see things through "other" "lenses" as well right? ...eh... just thought I'd point that out.

Sure, we have lenses - but they were "constructed" by those who heard the apostles. The evidence is found in reading the first Christians and how THEY constructed those "lenses".

Regards

 

[Catholic Crusader]

This post is adapted from parts of this source:
http://www.catholic.com/library/Assuran ... vation.asp
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
One problem with this thread is that we have different ideas on what salvation actually is, so some of us are arguing apples and oranges.

Be that as it may, protestant Wilson Ewin says that "no wrong act or sinful deed can ever affect the believer’s salvation. The sinner did nothing to merit God’s grace and likewise he can do nothing to demerit grace. True, sinful conduct always lessens one’s fellowship with Christ, limits his contribution to God’s work and can result in serious disciplinary action by the Holy Spirit."

One problem with this argument is that this is not even how things work in everyday life. If another person gives us something as a graceâ€â€as a giftâ€â€and even if we did nothing to deserve it (though frequently gifts are given based on our having pleased the one bestowing the gift), it in no way follows that our actions are irrelevant to whether or not we keep the gift. We can lose it in all kinds of ways. We can misplace it, destroy it, give it to someone else, take it back to the store. We may even forfeit something we were given by later displeasing the one who gave itâ€â€as when a person has been appointed to a special position but is later stripped of that position on account of mismanagement.

The argument fares no better when one turns to Scripture, for one finds that Adam and Eve, who received God’s grace in a manner just as unmerited as anyone today, most definitely did demerit itâ€â€and lost grace not only for themselves but for us as well (cf. also Rom. 11:17-24). While the idea that what is received without merit cannot be lost by demerit may have a kind of poetic charm for some, it does not stand up when compared with the way things really workâ€â€either in the everyday world or in the Bible.

Regarding the issue of whether Christians have an "absolute" assurance of salvation, regardless of their actions, consider this warning Paul gave: "See then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off" (Rom. 11:22; see also Heb. 10:26–29, 2 Pet. 2:20–21).

Paul, writing at the end of his life, "I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. Henceforth there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, will award to me on that Day" (2 Tim. 4:7-8). But earlier in life, even Paul did not claim an infallible assurance, either of his present justification or of his remaining in grace in the future. Concerning his present state, he wrote, "I am not aware of anything against myself, but I am not thereby justified [Gk., dedikaiomai]. It is the Lord who judges me" (1 Cor. 4:4). Concerning his remaining life, Paul was frank in admitting that even he could fall away: "I pummel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified" (1 Cor. 9:27). Of course, for a spiritual giant such as Paul, it would be quite unexpected and out of character for him to fall from God’s grace. Nevertheless, he points out that, however much confidence in his own salvation he may be warranted in feeling, even he cannot be infallibly sure either of his own present state or of his future course.

This post is adapted from parts of this source:
http://www.catholic.com/library/Assuran ... vation.asp

 

[Vic C.]

^^ :-? Source Please... or at least put it in your own words. :smt012 ^^

 

[Imagican]

Luke 13:

[24] Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.

MEC

 

[Arj]

I was born again for about 12 wonderous months,then i sinned by masturbating one time at internet pornography.Immediatly i was cut off and still am 12 months later.Im a dog who ate its own vommit.I deffinatly realise how filthy and disgusting i still am.Iff i could just go back and change what i did.All i can say now is when your tempted,dont.I really mean DONT,its not worth your eternal life :

 

[Arj]

I didnt so much leave the faith,but booted out.

 

[BobRyan]

Bubba, quick question for you, having a understanding of Calvinism:

Do you believe O.S.A.S. and Perseverance of the Saints are one in the same?

One more question:

Do you believe God elects some and then uses this elect to further spread the Gospel and salvation message? Limited Atonement , as it is usually taught, never did sound right to me.

Not answering for Bubba here - but my two cents is this --

1. OSAS is wrong.

Proof:
Matt 18 "forgiveness revoked". Christ then concludes with the summary "so shall my Father do to each one of you if you do not forgive your brother from your heart"

Rom 11 Those who "STAND BY FAITH" are to "fear" for "if He did not spare them neither will he spare you... and he is able to graft them back in AGAIN if they do not CONTINUE in unbelief"

John 15 "Branches IN ME" that are removed -- wither and die and are cast into the fire.

Gal 5:4 "You have been severed FROM Christ you have fallen FROM Grace"



2. Limited Atonement is wrong in the way that 4 and 5 point Calvinists use it.

Proof:

1John 2:2 "He is the Atoning Sacrifice for OUR sins and not for OUR sins only but for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD".

John 3:16 "God so loved THE WORLD that HE GAVE"

1Peter 3 "God is not willing for ANY to perish but for ALL to come to repentance".

 

[Catholic Crusader]

...but my two cents is this --

1. OSAS is wrong.....

God help me: I'm going to agree with BobRyan

 

[BobRyan]

Free will not OSAS, the Ten Commandments still binding, ALL 66 books of the Bible still "scripture" for Christians to read and learn from, meeting the needs of the sick and the poor as a key mission for the church, no secret rapture, no limited Atonement (via 4 and 5 pt Calvinism), no irresistable grace, no "arbitrary selection" as the "means of election", Darwinism is a false religion ...

There are actually a number of areas we "could" agree on ..

Bob

 

[duval]

I understand that Catholic Crusader and Bob Ryan hold the teaching of the scriptures on this. I do understand slightly differently regarding the 10 commandmentrs being still binding however.

 

[Catholic Crusader]

Free will not OSAS, the Ten Commandments still binding, ALL 66 books of the Bible still "scripture" for Christians to read and learn from, meeting the needs of the sick and the poor as a key mission for the church, no secret rapture, no limited Atonement (via 4 and 5 pt Calvinism), no irresistable grace, no "arbitrary selection" as the "means of election", Darwinism is a false religion ...

There are actually a number of areas we "could" agree on ..

Well, except for that "66 books" part, I'm with you so far, but I see a parting of the ways on the near horizon

I understand that Catholic Crusader and Bob Ryan hold the teaching of the scriptures on this.

Bite your tongue Man

I do understand slightly differently regarding the 10 commandmentrs being still binding however.

Well, the moral teachings of the commandments are still binding. I mean, murder is still a sin, right? ;-)

 

[BobRyan]

I understand that Catholic Crusader and Bob Ryan hold the teaching of the scriptures on this. I do understand slightly differently regarding the 10 commandmentrs being still binding however.

Ok - well "I'll take it"! :-D

As for the Ten Commandments

Rom 3:31 "Do we then make void the Law of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we establish the Law of God"

1Cor 7:20 "Neither is Circumcision (being a Jew) nor uncircumcision (being gentile) anything but what matters is keeping the commandments of God"

Rev 14:12 "here is the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and their faith IN Jesus"

In James 2 the Ten commandments are quotes as "the Law of Liberty".

In Eph 6:2 we are given the 5th commandment "as the first commandment with a promise" in that unit of Ten (Not the first promise given in the bible - but the first in the 10 Commandments)

D.L Moody has a fascinating sermon on the fact of the continuation of theTen Commandments available on line.

Pope JPII also has an interesting encyclical on the eternal nature of the Ten Commandments

Anyway ... something to think about.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[duval]

I understand according to scripture that the law was a school master to bring us to Christ, but now that He has come we are no longer under it, Gal.3:24,25. II Cor.3:1-14 ( esp. vs.11 and 14 ) clearly show the law was taken away. Rom.7:1-7 likewise. There are numerous other passages. Obeying the commandments of God does not always equate with obeying the law of the O.T. However, I may have introduced a new subject, unless this comes under Gal.4:6 which teaches one has fallen from grace if one keeps the old law.

 

[francisdesales]

I understand according to scripture that the law was a school master to bring us to Christ, but now that He has come we are no longer under it, Gal.3:24,25. II Cor.3:1-14 ( esp. vs.11 and 14 ) clearly show the law was taken away. Rom.7:1-7 likewise. There are numerous other passages. Obeying the commandments of God does not always equate with obeying the law of the O.T. However, I may have introduced a new subject, unless this comes under Gal.4:6 which teaches one has fallen from grace if one keeps the old law.

While it is true that we are no longer under the Mosaic Law, the Decalogue TRANSCENDS the Mosaic Law. In other words, it was ALWAYS wrong to murder or steal. Such acts always make us less human and separate us from what God wants us to become.

The principles of the Decalogue transcend the 10 commandments, just as the priniciples of liberty transcend the Magna Carta and are included in the American Declaration of Independence. These principles are not bound to the law - the law merely expresses them. In the same way, the Mosaic Law provided God's People with written commands - but these principles existed before Mt. Sinai and remain in force to this day.

Regards

 

[duval]

There is a difference in testaments. We live under the new and not the old testament, Heb.8,9 and 10. A testament is a will and the new could not effect until the death of its testator and in this instance the testator is Christ. Only that which is carried over into the new is binding. What is left behind in the old is not. All of the original ten commandments exect ONE was carried over into the new, and in most cases were enlarged upon. Jesus said for example: "Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in His heart" Matt.5:27,28, and so on in the 5th. chapter. Jesus went to the HEART of these matters and not simply the letter.