Can true Christians lose their salvation ?

[JM]

AVBunyan wrote:
* Most of the greatest missionaries of yesteryear were Calvinist.

* Most of the greatest writers and theologians between 1600-1850 were Calvinists.

* Most of the greatest preacher/evangelists between 1600-1850 were Calvinists.

* Most of the most beloved pastors between 1600-1850 were Calvinists.

* Most of the greatest hymn writers of yesteryear were Calvinists.



Sounds like Calvinists were as a whole working pretty dern hard to prove to themselves that they were members of the few elite ‘chosen elected for salvation’ group. If you can’t fool yourself, how are you going to fool God? What happened after 1850? Someone finally figure out that if God has chosen you or not chosen you for no reason whatsoever before you were even born that there’s nothing you can do to undo that so you might as well eat, drink and be merry? Great doctrine you have there, fellas. You can keep it. Sounds like a real loser. But not the biggest loser… that would be you when you find out it was all a cunningly devised myth.


:

No, the elect bring forth fruit worthy of their election.

:wink:

 

[mutzrein]

This is a thread I posted on another board, the subject was can a Christian loose the Holy Spirit. But since this also applies to Salvation, I thought it might be something to consider here.

My son and I have discussed this subject before - here are some of the conclusions we came to.

The Holy Spirit is given to the believer as a permanent seal of Salvation.
Eph 4:30
30: And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
KJV

Some have gotten the mistaken idea from David’s prayer in Psalms that Gods spirit could be removed.
Ps 51:11
11: Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.
KJV

This prayer was David’s confession, and repentance of his sin with Bathsheba. It was a prayer for the restoration of fellowship, and the previous joy, and power of the Holy Spirit’s working in his life, that God would not hide his face or turn his back on him.

Take a look at another example Lot who dwelled in Sodom, and daily vexed the spirit by the things he saw and heard. The spirit was not taken from him, otherwise he would not have been considered a Godly Righteous man. But God rather delivered him out of his circumstances.
2 Peter 2:8
8: (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds)
9: The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:
KJV

There is one circumstance where it might be thought that Gods spirit has been removed from a person, when in fact they never had it.
Matt 7:21-23
21: Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22: Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23: And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
KJV

These are those who have professed faith in Christ but did not have any true commitment to him. When a person is truly saved his life will change in some way, it may not be a complete overhaul from the beginning, but some evidence of their sincerity will be manifest. Those who profess faith, and continue on with life as usual, and have no remorse for sin are not saved.

No one who is truly indwelt with the spirit of God can sin, without constant feelings of guilt, and remorse for their sinfulness. Some spiritual fruit will be evident in the lives of those who do believe. And should become more evident as their fellowship with the Spirit becomes greater.
John 15:2
2: Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
KJV

This verse is a comparison of the righteous, and the unrighteous. Those who are true will over time produce more fruit, those who are false will have their folly revealed. Their sins will be laid bare, and that which they seem to have will be removed, the veil of covering will be rent.
Matt 25:29
29: For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
KJV

So the person who is truly saved will never loose the spirit, or have it taken away. But those who have a profession, and no possession who never had the spirit; may seem to some they have had the spirit taken away, but in truth never had it to loose in the first place.

Interesting post Samuel and much I agree with. What would you say is the condition of the Galatian's of whom Paul said, 'after starting with the Spirit, are you now trying to achieve your goal by human effort' (my paraphrase)

 

[Oscar3]

So unread typo
I see you have avoided my rebuttle to your riddle. In the same way Sampson got found out about his riddle, you too got found out of your riddle.

Can a true Christian loose his salvation?
Not if he never had it to begin with. This is the answer to your riddle that speaks of you.

 

[unred typo]

Sorry Oscar, I forgot your post. : I have limited time now that the holidays are upon us. I'll try to address it asap.

 

[golfjack]

reply

There has much discussion about whether a true believer can lose their salvation. So, can they or not?

First of all, there are some who say they are born again, but if one is involved in all kinds of devilment, I would say, they probably weren't saved in the first place. Then the question is can a true believer lose their salvation? Accordiing to Hebrews 10:26: For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins. You see, this sin couldn't just be referring to any sin, for if it just referred to any sin, then first John 1:9, wouldn't be true.

Therefore, Hebrews 10:26 is talking about the sin of rejecting Christ. It must be the unpardonable sin. It's like saying, I don't want Jesus anymore.

Some questions to see if we understand the new birth: What part of man is saved at the new birth? When we talk about a process of being saved, what part of man is involved in this process? I think if we understand the new birth, then we can understand this subject about losing one's salvation much better.


May God bless, golfjack

 

[destiny]

Oscar, just the other day you said...

Well, Jg I never thought that I would agree with a catholic over what you believe, but I too have always believed that a person could loose his salvation.
I posted the same verse of Heb 6 and got no answers.

Can you shed some light on this. I read ''some'' of your post, but not all of them as they are too long.

Then after reading one article you said...

Actually Golf and Destiny
Here is a commentary from Crosswalk.com
It very much is in agreement with what Jg said. I must admit that his view does make sense to me.

After this one article you became an avid fighter for OSAS and an accuser of those who held to conditional security. :o


1- Were you looking for a quick loophole because of some sin in your life?

2-Are you that easily tossed to and fro by every wind of doctrine?

3-Are you a sitting duck for false doctrine because you aren't grounded in the word?

Eph 4:14
...that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the headâ€â€Christâ€â€


Hmmm....What are 'you' doing hounding unred?

 

[AVBunyan]

Sounds like Calvinists were as a whole working pretty dern hard to prove to themselves that they were members of the few elite ‘chosen elected for salvation’ group. :

Those holy men you appear to be mocking along with their doctrine would walk right past you looking for a Christian.

 

[unred typo]

Those holy men you appear to be mocking along with their doctrine would walk right past you looking for a Christian.

Av, I’m shocked! This is quite a change of heart. Are you saying they wouldn’t even know a Christian if they saw one?

:smt083

 

[MrVersatile48]

U-T,

Thanks for your earlier encouragement: as a trained actor, I have often looked at cold print & prayed that the heart would come across - kinda like that Yusuf Islam (Cat Stevens) new cover of '60s The Animals hit, Please Don't Let Me Be Misunderstood - anyone can hear him interviewed on http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio2 The Weekender till next Fri

Quick link for any who feel called to witness to any celebs, or on any fanzines:-

http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopi ... ht=#309733

Once again, the latest from Selwyn Hughes - founder of Crusade for World Revival - is so apt:-

December 10


Amazing!

Romans 5:12--21

"... how much more will those who receive God?s abundant provision of grace ... reign in life ..." (v. 17)

If we are to go deeper with God, we need to know how to avail ourselves of God's grace.

Our text for today talks about "those who receive God's abundant provision of grace." Though God's grace may be abundant, it is only effective in our lives if it is received.

But what do we mean by "grace"?

Grace is spoken of in both the Old and New Testaments, and the root meaning of the word is that of kindness and favor.

In the New Testament it is used chiefly in connection with God's undeserved mercy in redeeming humankind. Grace, as undeserved favor, is a term still used in business -- especially the world of insurance.

Sometimes a representative of a firm will write to a client and say something like this: "In the circumstances you have no claim, we will give you a certain sum as an act of grace."

They acknowledge no indebtedness, but out of their kindness (and in hope of business to come) they give the client something to which he has no legal right.

A definition of grace I like very much is this: "Grace is the strength God gives us to obey His commands." Grace is not just a kindly attitude but an impartation of power too.

We can be sure that the people who seem to know God in a much deeper way than we do have received more of that power which God imparts "unmerited and free."

It is by grace that they leap over all the impediments on their onward way.

Grace truly is amazing!

Prayer:

O Father, how can I thank You enough that just as the atmosphere wraps itself around my body so Your grace wraps itself around my soul. May I respond to Your grace as my physical body responds to the atmosphere -- and lives. In Jesus' Name. Amen.

For Further Study

Acts 15:1--11; Rom. 3:24; Titus 3:7

1. What are some of the fruits of grace?
2. Write out your own definition of grace.



God bless!

Ian :-D

 

[Lewis]

How about this guy ?

Benjamin Chavis joins Nation of Islam - Interview
Jet, March 10, 1997

The Rev. Benjamin Chavis, the CEO of the National African American Leadership Summit, has become a member of the Nation of Islam.

Chavis, a Christian minister who has changed his name to Benjamin Chavis Muhammad, made the announcement before an audience of 12,000 people at the Nation of Islam's annual Saviour's Day Convention at the University of Illinois Pavilion in Chicago. "There has been a convergence and I have evolved into the Nation of Islam," he said.

His wife Martha is taking the name Muhammad as well.

The former head of the NAACP said he's answering the call of God to become a member of the Nation of Islam, headed by Minister Louis Farrakhan.

"During the last 40 years, God has called me into many different ministries, organizations, movements, struggles, trials and tribulations, but through it all God has never left me alone," Chavis Muhammad, 49, said. "Today God is calling again and that's why I'm here."

Chavis Muhammad said he is not turning from God, but he's turning to Allah. He called his conversion a "life transformation."

"So this is a convergence where a Christian minister and a Muslim minister have decided to work together and I intend to help build a new nation, not a new church and not a new mosque," he said in the Wall Street Journal. "I still believe in Jesus Christ."

Since 1994, Chavis has been a frequent Farrakhan ally and played a major role in organizing the historic Million Man March.
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/ ... i_19211145

 

[Lewis]

1 Timothy 4:1 "Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils".

Yes you can leave the faith' in the form of apostacy. And that is a choice. I remember when I first read that story of pastor Benjamin Chavis' becoming a Muslim' how alarming it was to me. I wanted to know' what made him do it. But I did know that you can choose to lose your salvation' in the form of apostacy.

 

[Jay T]

Hi Folks
I have decided to start this thread to discuss if ''True Christians'' can loose their salvation.....another member said

NO....a 'True' Christian cannot lose their salvation !

The problem now is....what constitutes a 'true' Christian ?

 

[destiny]

NO....a 'True' Christian cannot lose their salvation !

The problem now is....what constitutes a 'true' Christian ?

Ok Jay, I'll go along with that ....A true christian won't sin all they want and still call themself a 'true' christian.
We have to be born again by the spirit of God and not live in sin according to the flesh.
Thats what sets us apart from the world.

 

[JM]

There ya go, JM., you have all the authority and the power, amen.

Plank alert! Better remove the plank from your own eye.

Yours is the only one that counts… in here that is. Make it a good one, because you will have to answer for it one day.

Nope. To you, my view doesn’t matter because you rather invent one, it’s easier then dealing with facts.

See how grace has become a law for you.

See how the law has become a trap, just like the trap used to ensnare pride filled Pharisees.

You lay out the perimeters for what God himself must do to meet your requirement of a free gift worthy of your acceptance.

And you ignore what is clearly stated and presented in Scripture so you can toss your own work in on the free gift.

Laws of Calvinistic grace are not commands for men, but things God has to do for you, thou chosen among men, according to the careful, meticulous construction of his word.

Totally ignorant of the facts and very immature on your part to jump to this conclusion, you’re show how little you understand of Scripture when you make comments like that.

Romans 6:14; Galatians 2:16; Romans 8:1; Romans 10:4; Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7, etc; Romans 6:12-14; 1 Peter 3:8-13

The New Covenant includes the writing of the Law on the hearts of believers.

There must not be a human finger of works placed on the altar of Calvinism lest they be shot through with an arrow or struck by lightning from above.

The human finger is purely Arminian and what you’re suggesting.

Not just the giving of his Son’s blood as a perfect sacrifice to purify us from our sin, but God must do all the work for man, making God a mere slave to those he has chosen.

Heb 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the AUTHOR AND FINISHER OF OUR FAITH; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Cool, I bet that makes you want to sing ‘Amazing Grace.’

Grace is amazing! But what you suggest is a sick version of earning salvation by performance. BTW, John Newton wrote Amazing Grace…he was a Calvinist!

You have to appreciate the irony of using the charge against Satan, PRIDE, and throwing it in God’s face by fabricating a deception using God’s own words to denounce good works as works of pride.

What could be more prideful then your objection? Have you thought about it? Probably not. You’re saying you have to work to keep salvation, that God either can’t save totally or won’t save totally which is contrary to the idea of Hebrews quoted above. You’re saying “I’m not really all that bad, sin isn’t as bad as JM makes it sound. I can do it on my own steam.â€Â

By making pride to be the ultimate sin and using this fear of pride to undermine God’s own commands to love and good works, Satan deceives the very elect if it were possible.

This is too funny. Why is it not possible to fool the elect? Think about it, no matter how much it may hurt to do so, think hard. God keeps the elect from deception. That’s right, God does a work in our place for us, He knows we are not able to. So next time you’re confronted with a difficult task, some trial of the faith, don’t thank yourself…thank God.

Impossible, you boldly assume, making all the warnings against it become as phony and hollow as the generous sounding call to repentance and merciful offers of justification by faith.

Another straw man. The saints of God, God’s elect will bring forth fruit.

It’s all a scam if Calvinism is true.

Which Calvinism? The one you invented or the one that expresses what the Bible teaches?

You can cloak it in fancy robes of religious jargon but God will strip it of it’s loveliness and show it for the ugly wart it is on the bride of Christ. Maybe not on the bride, but the harlot, who can say?

No comment. This last little triad speaks volumes about its author.

~JM~

 

[golfjack]

reply

Some seem to think one can lose their salvation at the drop of a hat. Some will say that if one lives in sin they will lose their salvation. What sin or sins does one have to commit? How many years in sin does one have to live? I bet you cannot answer these questions.

First of all, I was a Catholic that received condemnation constantly. Don't wish to go back to that again. In fact I sin less now than ever before.

1 Peter 1:22: Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth ( the Word) through the Spirit.... So the problem is with our souls. One will have to be a doer of the Word before it will profit your soul. Your soul will be saved, delivered, protected, healed, preserved, made well and whole by receiving and by doing the Word. This puts the responsibility on the believer, and also puts the responsibility on the believer if SAtan is going to have an inroad to him through his soul.

There are many Christians who have been saved and filled with the Holy Spirit for many years, whose souls are not yet saved. Some have lived and died and their souls have never been saved. You see, their souls have never been renewed, restored, or made whole by the Word of God. Therefore, they we were not successful against the attacks of Satan.

Just because Christians haven't renewed their minds doesn't mean they won't go to heaven when they die. Why do they go to heaven? It is because their spirits are born of God. Now, do you understand?


May God bless, golfjack

 

[mutzrein]

Ok Jay, I'll go along with that ....A true christian won't sin all they want and still call themself a 'true' christian.
We have to be born again by the spirit of God and not live in sin according to the flesh.
Thats what sets us apart from the world.

And I agree with you Destiny. A true christian is one who has received eternal life by being born of the Spirit of God.

And just as a natural child will always be the child of the parents that gave it life, so it is with those who are born of God. We can never be unborn.

However if we do not remain in faith, and instead walk away from the provision of Gods grace toward us, and regress into a righteousness not of faith (which is no righteousness) - as long as we remain this state, there is no repentance.

As scripture says ‘It is impossible for the those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God, and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.’

 

[jgredline]

Goodness

Destiny
Let me ask you a question or two
Where do you get the idea of OSAS ?
Where do u get the idea that calvinism is an E-Ticket to sin?

This issue of can one loose his salvation goes back to justification....
Justification is not a Calvinistic doctrine, but bible doctrine.

 

[destiny]

Goodness

Destiny
Let me ask you a question or two
Where do you get the idea of OSAS ?
Where do u get the idea that calvinism is an E-Ticket to sin?

This issue of can one loose his salvation goes back to justification....
Justification is not a Calvinistic doctrine, but bible doctrine.

Once saved always saved ....means one cannot lose their salvation even if the person backslides falls away and lives like a heathen, according to one group here.
Another group says that if they fall away they were never saved to start with.
Although neither view is mine, the latter is less damaging than the first one I listed.

As far as calvinism, I never mentioned it.

 

[Rick W]

I've looked again at things I used to be, do. Went into a bar one day with a non-christian friend to be sociable. No way can I go back to that again the way I was. Things I once thought were ok before I was saved I can never embrace again. I don't know much about labels like calvinist and such but I personally don't see any means or any way I can go back to that miserable "me" I was once before. I've experienced too much freedom in Christ to go back into the bonds of the world.
Am I a "true" christian? I don't know. What's a "true" christian? But I do know that I know freedom in Christ. I do know my relationship with Him is real and I do know I'm at peace with Him. Do I sin? Yes. Do I like it? No. Will I get what I deserve? Praise be to Christ that I don't.

 

[jgredline]

Once saved always saved ....means one cannot lose their salvation even if the person backslides falls away and lives like a heathen, according to one group here.
Another group says that if they fall away they were never saved to start with.
Although neither view is mine, the latter is less damaging than the first one I listed.

As far as calvinism, I never mentioned it.

Destiny
So if a Christian is severly backslidden do you believe he has lost his salvation?
Never had it to begin with? or is a carnal christian who will / is saved but will recieve his rewards in heaven according to his works or is it another option.

I ask because I don't want to put words in your mouth and am trying to understand.