Cast Out The Bondwoman And Her Son!

[wavy]

From what I gathered, you were trying to do as you said, to underscore the point that Paul was actually advocating the (direct) pursuit of the law while having faith. If you would rather not answer my question, that is fine with me.

I did answer your question. You just want to promote your robo-believer doctrine. Again, there is a thread for that.

Oh, yes. Romans 3:31. Not just the Torah only, but all scripture. 2 Timothy 3:16. So in our faith, we should pursue to read, study, meditate, and carry out in our lives what the scripture says to do. And we do this with a glad heart. Consciously, though naturally. It's like a teenage girl who sees a star she adores in public. She just may run after him. Not because she had to think about it like: "I like this guy. Should I run after him, or not?"

No she does runs after him because she likes him (but no one made her do it). Same principle with the Father (on a grander scale). We should just naturally want to look into his Word and obey him. If you do not, then perhaps you don't love him.

I don't see why I must become a robot to pursue holiness in faith. It's not one + the other. It's not I have faith, "but what do I do now?"

No. And this scripture rebukes the notion of robo-believer:

2 Timothy 2:22 Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart.

That's your word from Romans 9:30.

Be cool.

 

[PDoug]

I did answer your question. You just want to promote your robo-believer doctrine. Again, there is a thread for that.

First you deny that you advocate that someone who has faith should directly pursue works of righteousness, then you say the following:

"Meditating on his Word and obeying it is what we should pursue after faith". (See here for more information.) Please clarify your position. Do you advocate that someone who has faith should directly pursue works of righteousness?

 

[wavy]

First you deny that you advocate that someone who has faith should directly pursue works of righteousness, then you say the following:

No, you were speaking in the context of being justified and saved. That's what I was denying. That's why I said, I believe, something like, "not in the way you seem to be asking"

"Meditating on his Word and obeying it is what we should pursue after faith".

Yes, I meant just that.

Please clarify your position. Do you advocate that someone who has faith should directly pursue works of righteousness?

I have clarified it.

 

[PDoug]

Oh, yes. Romans 3:31. Not just the Torah only, but all scripture. 2 Timothy 3:16. So in our faith, we should pursue to read, study, meditate, and carry out in our lives what the scripture says to do. And we do this with a glad heart. Consciously, though naturally. It's like a teenage girl who sees a star she adores in public. She just may run after him. Not because she had to think about it like: "I like this guy. Should I run after him, or not?"

No she does runs after him because she likes him (but no one made her do it). Same principle with the Father (on a grander scale). We should just naturally want to look into his Word and obey him. If you do not, then perhaps you don't love him.

I don't see why I must become a robot to pursue holiness in faith. It's not one + the other. It's not I have faith, "but what do I do now?"

No. And this scripture rebukes the notion of robo-believer:

2 Timothy 2:22 Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart.

That's your word from Romans 9:30.

Be cool.

Please answer my main question, and then we can discuss these other issues you want to bring up.

Once again, do you advocate that someone who has faith should directly pursue works of righteousness? Please answer with Yes or No.

 

[wavy]

Please answer my main question, and then we can discuss these other issues you want to bring up.

Once again, do you advocate that someone who has faith should directly pursue works of righteousness? Please answer with Yes or No.

Other issues? 1 Timothy 6:11, James 1:22 and Philippians 2:12 will answer your questions.

 

[PDoug]

Please answer my main question, and then we can discuss these other issues you want to bring up.

Once again, do you advocate that someone who has faith should directly pursue works of righteousness? Please answer with Yes or No.

Other issues? 1 Timothy 6:11, James 1:22 and Philippians 2:12 will answer your questions.

So you don't want to answer my question directly?

 

[wavy]

I thought "yes" would be the obvious answer...

*EDIT*

I don't know your implications of "directly" though.

 

[PDoug]

I thought "yes" would be the obvious answer...

*EDIT*

I don't know your implications of "directly" though.

By directly I mean if God says you should love your brother, you actively / consciously take steps to love your brother.

 

[wavy]

Yes, actually we should. Because if he's telling you to do it, then obviously you have not been doing it.

That means you have to look at yourself, repent, pray and change your walk. Actively and consciously.

 

[PDoug]

Yes, actually we should. Because if he's telling you to do it, then obviously you have not been doing it.

That means you have to look at yourself, repent, pray and change your walk. Actively and consciously.

Great. Thanks for your answer. Now please look at the scripture below:

Galatians 5

4 You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.

Is it not specified in the law that you are to love your neighbor / brother?

Leviticus 19

18 " 'Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against one of your people, but love your neighbor as yourself. I am the LORD.

Therefore if you take active / conscious steps to love your brother so as to ensure you are justified with God, you violate Galatians 5:4?

 

[wavy]

But that's the whole problem, isn't it?

You keep changing the subject back to justification. I am not speaking of justification.

 

[PDoug]

But that's the whole problem, isn't it?

You keep changing the subject back to justification. I am not speaking of justification.

Why then should someone do good works directly along with having faith, if not for justification?

 

[wavy]

Because it it their duty and obedience to יהוה

Ephesians 2:10, as I'm sure you've read.

 

[PDoug]

Because it it their duty and obedience to יהוה

Ephesians 2:10, as I'm sure you've read.

Therefore there is no consequence (as far as salvation is concerned) to someone not pursuing good works directly while having faith?

 

[wavy]

Yes, there is.

Galatians 6:7 Be not deceived; יהוה is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
Galatians 6:8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
Galatians 6:9 And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.

 

[PDoug]

Yes, there is.

Galatians 6:7 Be not deceived; יהוה is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
Galatians 6:8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
Galatians 6:9 And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.

Are you saying that unless someone pursues good works directly while having faith, he will lose his salvation?

 

[wavy]

You keep separating the two. Faith works in and of itself.
It's simple logic.

If I say "Doug, go get that million dollars out from my wallet and it will bring you favor and you can use it for good", and you believe this (faith), you'll go get the wallet and take the money out (a work).

If you didn't go get it, then obviously you either don't believe, or don't desire to trust me and just do what I say.

If it's the latter, you have a "dead faith". "As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead."

Faith + no works = dead faith. It just becomes mere "belief".

 

[PDoug]

You keep separating the two. Faith works in and of itself.
It's simple logic.

If I say "Doug, go get that million dollars out from my wallet and it will bring you favor and you can use it for good", and you believe this (faith), you'll go get the wallet and take the money out (a work).

If you didn't go get it, then obviously you either don't believe, or don't desire to trust me and just do what I say.

If it's the latter, you have a "dead faith". "As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead."

Faith + no works = dead faith. It just becomes mere "belief".

So then are you saying that faith involves the direct accomplishment of good works?

 

[wavy]

Yes. I'm sure we could end this now. Faith merits obedience.

 

[PDoug]

Yes. I'm sure we could end this now. Faith merits obedience.

If faith involves the direct accomplishment of good works, why did Paul say that they were separate in the scripture below?

Romans 3

28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law.