Cast Out The Bondwoman And Her Son!

[wavy]

If you insist...I have nothing else to do.

If faith involves the direct accomplishment of good works, why did Paul say that they were separate in the scripture below?

Romans 3

28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law.

Speaking of justification again. There's a context here. Man cannot be justified by works (any works, Torah or otherwise) because "all have sinned" (Romans 3:23).

So we need righteousness apart from Torah to justify us and make us clean. Now, once that is established, what do we do next?

Paul is not speaking here in the context of after we come to faith and are declared righteous. He is speaking of before. This is largely directed to those who think they don't need Messiah because they have Torah.

But after, which Paul is not addressing here is what we are talking about. And that is found in Ephesians 2:10 and in James.

 

[PDoug]

Paul is not speaking here in the context of after we come to faith and are declared righteous. He is speaking of before. This is largely directed to those who think they don't need Messiah because they have Torah.

But after, which Paul is not addressing here is what we are talking about. And that is found in Ephesians 2:10 and in James.

Are you saying that someone must directly pursue good works after having faith, in order to remain justified?

 

[wavy]

No. Rather, one who is justified and guarded by Yahweh and studies his Word will produce good works (obedience).

 

[PDoug]

No. Rather, one who is justified and guarded by Yahweh and studies his Word will produce good works (obedience).

So then you are saying that after someone has faith, he does not need to pursue good works directly to remain justified?

 

[wavy]

I feel we are going in circles, but no. He doesn't "need" to. He will, however. If he loves Yahweh and does what he says. Refusing to will prove that he does not.

That is the whole basis of doing good works. John 14:15.

 

[PDoug]

I feel we are going in circles, but no. He doesn't "need" to. He will, however. If he loves Yahweh and does what he says. Refusing to will prove that he does not.

That is the whole basis of doing good works. John 14:15.

But weren't you saying that if someone has faith, and does not directly pursue good works, then that person's faith is dead? If that person's faith is dead, isn't that person not justified?

 

[wavy]

Yes. I was only saying that "need" is not the issue here.

 

[PDoug]

Yes. I was only saying that "need" is not the issue here.

If a person's faith is dead without directly pursuing good works, how can you say that directly pursuing good works is not needed for salvation?

 

[Georges]

I had read an interesting perspective on why the early Christians kept Mosaic Law in the Freedom that Christ provides......and it makes good sense to me.....

They kept the Law as an example of righteous living and identification as a people set apart by holy living.

God gave the Torah to the Israelites so they could be an example to the nations as how to live righteously......Same thing applies in the NT...the early Christians obseved Mosaic Law as an example on how to live righteously in the freedom that Messiah provides.

God gave the Torah to the Israelites to separate them from the nations. NT Christians should live the Torah as an example of righteous living to the rest of the Nations.

Not Law, but rather righteous living.....The worst thing that happened to Christianity is when "Torah instruction" was translated as Torah Law.....

 

[wavy]

Yes, indeed. Georges. You can see what this thread has become...

Anyway, yes. I do believe though that the NT Christians are believing remnant Israel.

 

[wavy]

If a person's faith is dead without directly pursuing good works, how can you say that directly pursuing good works is not needed for salvation?

This is after one's faith comes. This is not at the beginning. At the beginning you must believe and repent. You are not required to do anything (except for baptism, if possible). To be absolved of guilt you have to do nothing upon acceptance of Messiah.

You are taking me in these silly circles and loops. I have told you good works will emanate from a true, living faith. You're not running around trying to figure out what to do. You pray, you read, and you'll know what to do.

But if you think it's just time to sit back after the initial belief, then you have a dead faith. It's worthless. You have not submitted yourself in true obedience to Yahweh in this case. You've taken advantage of Yahweh's grace as a license to sin and chill. But a true faith is one of humility and submittance to obey what it is Yahweh told you to do.

I have been patient. I have told you there was another thread for this. You are asking silly questions. Sorry, but you are. You're trying to bring me into some type of trap by using trick words like "directly" and "consciously" etc and I have made my point ten million times.

You believe and obey. It's what you'll do if your belief means anything. It's not a "what must I do now to gain my salvation since I bellieve now?" thing. It's just what you'll automatically do, as I gave with the wallet example. Logic.

So please, take this robo-believer stuff somewhere else because I wanted to stay on topic and this is starting to get annoying. I know this sounds harsh, but that's just the way it is. If you have anything else to say, please, talk about Galatians 4:21-31 and let me decide what my point was, not try to take this off topic by telling me what my point was yourself so you can promote your "robotism".

Thanx.

 

[PDoug]

If a person's faith is dead without directly pursuing good works, how can you say that directly pursuing good works is not needed for salvation?

This is after one's faith comes. This is not at the beginning. At the beginning you must believe and repent. You are not required to do anything (except for baptism, if possible). To be absolved of guilt you have to do nothing upon acceptance of Messiah.

You are taking me in these silly circles and loops. I have told you good works will emanate from a true, living faith. You're not running around trying to figure out what to do. You pray, you read, and you'll know what to do.

But if you think it's just time to sit back after the initial belief, then you have a dead faith. It's worthless. You have not submitted yourself in true obedience to Yahweh in this case. You've taken advantage of Yahweh's grace as a license to sin and chill. But a true faith is one of humility and submittance to obey what it is Yahweh told you to do.

I have been patient. I have told you there was another thread for this. You are asking silly questions. Sorry, but you are. You're trying to bring me into some type of trap by using trick words like "directly" and "consciously" etc and I have made my point ten million times.

You believe and obey. It's what you'll do if your belief means anything. It's not a "what must I do now to gain my salvation since I bellieve now?" thing. It's just what you'll automatically do, as I gave with the wallet example. Logic.

I'm asking my questions for the sake of clarity.

So then you are saying that after someone has faith (initially), he needs to pursue good works directly to remain justified?