Catholicism and Infant Baptism

[thessalonian]

"The Church makes no pronouncement on the unbaptized but leaves them to the mercy and justice of God."

I don't believe the Bible tells us what happens to them all so that is the best I can do for you. Sorry it isn't good enough to just trust in God in those cases. :o

 

[jgredline]

"The Church makes no pronouncement on the unbaptized but leaves them to the mercy and justice of God."

I find it interesting that you give the church so much credence...

I don't believe the Bible tells us what happens to them all so that is the best I can do for you. Sorry it isn't good enough to just trust in God in those cases. :o

Fair enough...

 

[RobertMazar]

As a practicing RC who does not believe that Baptism imparts salvation I believe that anybody who believes that Baptism imparts salvation or has anything to do with salvation has a non functioning brain and is incapable of logical and analytical thinking. :smt021

 

[Heidi]

Oh but they have!

Psalm 51:5

Surely I was sinful at birth,
sinful from the time my mother conceived me.

Infants need a savior just as much as you or I do!

I stand corrected. After i posted, I said to myself; "What did I jsut say?" But I was in a hurry to meet someone for lunch and I realized that I had not through it through deeply enough, nor searched scripture as thouroughly. The Holy Spirit sure showed me and so have you. Thank you.

But there is also the issue of "Does things deserving punishment." The fact that Jesus mentioned that indicates that some do not do things that deserve punishment or it would have jsut been assumed that all are guilty. But I think we can all agree that aborted babies are as innocent as they come, not meanining as pure as God, but compared to the rest of us.

 

[mondar]

Another careful reading of my posts (just like the billy graham question yesterday) by jgred. Bravo for your reading and comprehension. It supports your cluelessness. You are only looking at posts for angles to twist and distort the words of the Church and the Catholics. More malicious bearing of false witness. Vic has it right.

If I cut and paste a few quotes from the council of trent concerning how those who believe in justification by faith alone are "anathema," would that help? :D

thessalonian, do you agree with the canons in the council of trent?

 

[Heidi]

As a practicing RC who does not believe that Baptism imparts salvation I believe that anybody who believes that Baptism imparts salvation or has anything to do with salvation has a non functioning brain and is incapable of logical and analytical thinking. :smt021

So what does infant baptism prove? :o All it does is confuse people on whether or not they're saved as many Lutherans and Catholics whom I've talked to are. So misusing water baptism is as blasphemous as thinking that rituals save.

 

[thessalonian]

If I cut and paste a few quotes from the council of trent concerning how those who believe in justification by faith alone are "anathema," would that help? :D

thessalonian, do you agree with the canons in the council of trent?

Why yes I do. Justification by faith alone is a false doctrine and those who teach it to the masses that are Catholic are anethema. God will judge those outside the Church who deal with it. Of course along the way I will expect some claims from you about catholics rejecting the need for faith or salvation by works and the like. Twisting what the council says.

 

[mondar]

If I cut and paste a few quotes from the council of trent concerning how those who believe in justification by faith alone are "anathema," would that help? :D

thessalonian, do you agree with the canons in the council of trent?

Oh well, at least we went from being "anathema" in the council of trent to being "separated brethren" in the 2 Vatican council. I am glad God changed his mind on the spiritual status of protestantism.

 

[thessalonian]

So what does infant baptism prove? :o All it does is confuse people on whether or not they're saved as many Lutherans and Catholics whom I've talked to are. So misusing water baptism is as blasphemous as thinking that rituals save.

More misrepresenting of Catholic teaching. More neglecting the commandment of God against bearing false witness. Baptism is an OUTWARD SIGN of inward grace. We believe the baptized recieves the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit saves the sinner by cleansing them of their sin. How is that a proble? How is that blasphemy?

 

[thessalonian]

Oh well, at least we went from being "anathema" in the council of trent to being "separated brethren" in the 2 Vatican council. I am glad God changed his mind on the spiritual status of protestantism.

I answered the rest of your post above. Anethema's at councils are for those in the Church who teach error. We leave those outside of the visible formal Church to the mercy and justice of God. There was never any change in status. The decrees of trent were against deformers such as Luther who were Catholic.

 

[mondar]

http://history.hanover.edu/texts/trent/ct06.html

CANON IX.-If any one saith, that by faith alone the impious is justified; in such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to co-operate in order to the obtaining the grace of Justification, and that it is not in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will; let him be anathema.

CANON XXIV.-If any one saith, that the justice received is not preserved and also increased before God through good works; but that the said works are merely the fruits and signs of Justification obtained, but not a cause of the increase thereof; let him be anathema.

I think this small sample should suffice to demonstrate that the RCC view is that most on this channel are going to hell. If you want more quotes, there is plenty more from the web page above.

 

[mondar]

I answered the rest of your post above. Anethema's at councils are for those in the Church who teach error. We leave those outside of the visible formal Church to the mercy and justice of God. There was never any change in status. The decrees of trent were against deformers such as Luther who were Catholic.

Ahh, the decrees were pronounced upon those evil protestants. Did you hear? The vatican removed its excommunication of Luther? He is no longer a heretic for his views on justification by faith alone. Can you explain the infallible Romanist view? Now is Luther a heretic considered anathema or not?

God seems not to be sure, he will have to consult with the latest Vatican position.

 

[thessalonian]

I've said many times, protestants don't try Catholic theology at home. :o

"to the one who knew, he will be treated with the unbeliever, but to the one who did not know he will be given a light beating". The Catholic is more culpable for what he is given. We leave it to God to judge those who do not have the capacity for understanding the Catholic faith because it has not been given by God.

Of course you will say you know better than a Catholic of 48 years who has studied his faith.

 

[thessalonian]

Ahh, the decrees were pronounced upon those evil protestants. Did you hear? The vatican removed its excommunication of Luther? He is no longer a heretic for his views on justification by faith alone. Can you explain the infallible Romanist view? Now is Luther a heretic considered anathema or not?

God seems not to be sure, he will have to consult with the latest Vatican position.

Your attempts at humor, which are ridicule leave no reason for further dialogue. It would be casting pearls.

 

[mondar]

I've said many times, protestants don't try Catholic theology at home. :o

"to the one who knew, he will be treated with the unbeliever, but to the one who did not know he will be given a light beating". The Catholic is more culpable for what he is given. We leave it to God to judge those who do not have the capacity for understanding the Catholic faith because it has not been given by God.

Of course you will say you know better than a Catholic of 48 years who has studied his faith.

I did a cut and paste from an official RCC web site. I am not even quoting protestant sources. My sources are RCC. The quotes are from hanover.edu. Hanover College is a Roman Catholic college. The council of trent is an official Romanist document. It is not me saying what Romanists believe. It seems to be Hanover and the council of Trent. Did you even bother to check my sources before making wild accusations?

 

[mondar]

Your attempts at humor, which are ridicule leave no reason for further dialogue. It would be casting pearls.

My apologies, I did lower myself to your level. I should have kept the high ground, and now it is lost... sigh.

The decrees of trent were against deformers such as Luther who were Catholic.

"Deformers?" Was that an attempt at humor?

 

[jgredline]

Why yes I do. Justification by faith alone is a false doctrine and those who teach it to the masses that are Catholic are anethema. God will judge those outside the Church who deal with it. Of course along the way I will expect some claims from you about catholics rejecting the need for faith or salvation by works and the like. Twisting what the council says.

yES, it would be to a catholic because they take no part in it...The catholics feel they need to ''work'' their way into Gods kingdom and if they don't ''work'' hard enough, there is always purgatory to finish what both the Catholic and Jesus could not quite do....

 

[thessalonian]

I did a cut and paste from an official RCC web site. I am not even quoting protestant sources. My sources are RCC. The quotes are from hanover.edu. Hanover College is a Roman Catholic college. The council of trent is an official Romanist document. It is not me saying what Romanists believe. It seems to be Hanover and the council of Trent. Did you even bother to check my sources before making wild accusations?

I believe the quotes as you pasted them. I know they are straight out of trent. But I also know that you do not understand Catholic theology and how two things look like dichtomies to you that are not. As I said protestants shouldn't try Catholic theology at home. You continue with the derogatory Romanist word. EDIT REMOVED AD HOMIEN ATTACK.... If a nuclear physicist explaines molecular chemistry to you and then later atomic particles to you do you claim he is contradicting himself just because you don't have all the facts and understandings? Not to boast but your a first grader (in Catholic theology) telling a college level Catholic that he is wrong about Catholicism. Your pride in your Catholic rhetoric won't let you admit this and be humble and be taught anything.

 

[thessalonian]

yES, it would be to a catholic because they take no part in it...The catholics feel they need to ''work'' their way into Gods kingdom and if they don't ''work'' hard enough, there is always purgatory to finish what both the Catholic and Jesus could not quite do....

As i said above there will be twisting of Catholic theology on faith and on works. Thank you for confirming that for me. God gives us the grace to do the good that we do (eph 3:20-21). We do not boast of this work for it is from him. You would think he might expect some return on his investment. We could at least put it in the bank and draw interest rather than putting it in a hole in the ground. Do the wicked and slothful go to heaven? Hmmmmmm....

Matt 25
[24] He also who had received the one talent came forward, saying, `Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow, and gathering where you did not winnow;
[25] so I was afraid, and I went and hid your talent in the ground. Here you have what is yours.'
[26] But his master answered him, `You wicked and slothful servant! You knew that I reap where I have not sowed, and gather where I have not winnowed?
[27] Then you ought to have invested my money with the bankers, and at my coming I should have received what was my own with interest.
[28] So take the talent from him, and give it to him who has the ten talents.
[29] For to every one who has will more be given, and he will have abundance; but from him who has not, even what he has will be taken away.

 

[jgredline]

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