Catholicism and Infant Baptism

[sisterchristian]

That's better than anihilation for those who were aborted and hell for those of whom you speak as Heidi beleives. Why does the salvatoin of the baby depend on whether the family is doing it so they can have a party or not? Baptism confers the Holy Spirit (acts 2:38 "repent and be BAPTIZED for the forgiveness of sins and YOU SHALL RECIEVE THE HOLY SPIRIT). It can be proven from scripture that babies can recieve the Holy Spirit. Therefore babies should be baptized.

The only reason that babies go to be with the Lord when they die is because they don't have any knowledge of right or wrong yet therefore they cannot repent and ask forgiveness of their sins can they now! So what would be the point than to baptize a little baby other than Tradition? It won't hold a guarantee for them once they become of age of accountability anyways, and it Definitely don't save anyone, And the act itself doesn't mean you will be filled with Holy Spirit, it's when a person truly believes and accepts jesus in their heart, then I believe you recieve the Holy spirit, Yeah sometimes it happens when you are getting baptized, but since a baby can't believe for his/her self than how can that work?

 

[thessalonian]

The only reason that babies go to be with the Lord when they die is because they don't have any knowledge of right or wrong yet therefore they cannot repent and ask forgiveness of their sins can they now! So what would be the point than to baptize a little baby other than Tradition? It won't hold a guarantee for them once they become of age of accountability anyways, and it Definitely don't save anyone, And the act itself doesn't mean you will be filled with Holy Spirit, it's when a person truly believes and accepts jesus in their heart, then I believe you recieve the Holy spirit, Yeah sometimes it happens when you are getting baptized, but since a baby can't believe for his/her self than how can that work?

Well first of all heidi says babies who die go to hell so why don't you debate her on that matter. Secondly sin is what prevents us from recieving the Holy Spirit. That is why we have to repent. But a baby as you have noted has no accountability and so there is no barrier to the Holy Spirit entering the baby. My 2 year old certainly can believe in Jesus so why can't she recieve the Holy Spirit?

Thirdly you have two plans of salvation. One for infants and one for those beyond the age of reason, however that can be defended by scripture? (Please show me age of reason in scripture). Jesus is THE WAY....There is only one! You claim two.

Do you deny that a baby can recieve the Holy Spirit? I can prove you wrong with two passages on that one.

 

[sisterchristian]

I highly doudt your claim that all you learend about was Mary and the Saints since I went through the same catechism stuff you did. I'm betting your memory isn't too good. Heck the Mass goes through the full gospels a couple times a year so how is it you never heard of Jesus unless you simply didn't pay attention. And whose fault is that? Since when did bringing bibles become a requirement for salvation. How many people do you suppose brought bibles to Chruch before the printing press? Yet you damn people to hell for not bringing one to Church. I check the Bible and it matches everything the Catholic Church says but not everything that people like you say that Catholicism says.

It is important to be in Gods word, that's how you grow in your faith! You can't just take the word of a man just because he holds the title of PRIEST or FATHER for all you know he could be teaching things that aren't even in Gods word and you will believe him WHY because he is a priest. It is very important to search out the scriptures yourself so that you can discern what is being taught is really the word of God. I can tell you right now that the Doctrine of Maryology that Catholics teach is nowhere found in the bible, nor is praying for the dead to get them out of "Purgatory" So in all that , yes I do feel that Catholic teachings are pretty much a False Doctrine! They emphasize more on Mary and the Saints than they do on JESUS and the gift of salvation! (which BTW is a free gift that cannot be earned by good works)

 

[thessalonian]

They emphasize more on Mary and the Saints than they do on JESUS and the gift of salvation! (which BTW is a free gift that cannot be earned by good works)

This can be shown to be verifiably FALSE. One only need go as far as the Catechism and search for Mary and Saints and Jesus and Christ. Any bets as to which one comes up more? By 10 to 1?

http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc.htm

In case you don't know the Catechism is the main source of teaching on the Catholic faith. Further if you look at what is written about Mary and the Saints it is ALL in relation to Jesus so even those portions that discuss that part are with regard to Jesus.

Try it yourself if you don't beleive me. You speak with prejuidice on your heart and it proves that your memory of your days as a Catholic is clouded. You bear false witness as well.

Now can you address the part of my post that dealt with the topic of this thread or are you going to avoid that.

 

[sisterchristian]

Well first of all heidi says babies who die go to hell so why don't you debate her on that matter. Secondly sin is what prevents us from recieving the Holy Spirit. That is why we have to repent. But a baby as you have noted has no accountability and so there is no barrier to the Holy Spirit entering the baby. My 2 year old certainly can believe in Jesus so why can't she recieve the Holy Spirit?

Thirdly you have two plans of salvation. One for infants and one for those beyond the age of reason, however that can be defended by scripture? (Please show me age of reason in scripture). Jesus is THE WAY....There is only one! You claim two.

Do you deny that a baby can recieve the Holy Spirit? I can prove you wrong with two passages on that one.

I know that Jesus is the only way! Where did I claim two plans for salvation?? you have to accept Jesus As Lord and Saviour, You have to repent of your sins, you have to ask for forgiveness with all your heart! A baby can't do this and God knows this so therefore they aren't accountable yet and if they die during this unaccountable age than they go to heaven. But if they live to the age of accountability than their now accountable for their own sins and acceptance of Jesus in their life. I don't know what the age of accountability is either but I would guess it varies with different individuals, because it takes some longer to realize right from wrong!

 

[thessalonian]

(which BTW is a free gift that cannot be earned by good works)

More rhetoric based on prejudice and believing what people outside of Catholicism told you without checking in out for yourself. :-?

Catholic theology does not teach that salvation is earned by good works. The man in sin could build a sky scraper to heaven and fill it with all the poor and feed them and cloth them and he would go to hell. Works are of no value until one is "saved" in Catholic theology. You distort once more. Shall I quote the Catechism above in this regard?

 

[thessalonian]

But if they live to the age of accountability than their now accountable for their own sins and acceptance of Jesus in their life. I don't know what the age of accountability is either but I would guess it varies with different individuals, because it takes some longer to realize right from wrong!

Let me be clear. I don't believe it has to be in the Bible but the claim is that infant baptism is not so fair is fair. Where is this doctrine of accountablity that you speak of in the Bible? You base concepts of salvation on it you must have a chapter and verse that clearly lays it out?

Can babies recieve the Holy Spirit? You seem to be avoiding that one as well? I'll use the Bible so you can check the scriptures and see if it is so yourself. :wink:

 

[sisterchristian]

This can be shown to be verifiably FALSE. One only need go as far as the Catechism and search for Mary and Saints and Jesus and Christ. Any bets as to which one comes up more? By 10 to 1?

http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc.htm

In case you don't know the Catechism is the main source of teaching on the Catholic faith. Further if you look at what is written about Mary and the Saints it is ALL in relation to Jesus so even those portions that discuss that part are with regard to Jesus.

Try it yourself if you don't beleive me. You speak with prejuidice on your heart and it proves that your memory of your days as a Catholic is clouded. You bear false witness as well.

Now can you address the part of my post that dealt with the topic of this thread or are you going to avoid that.

For crying out loud they teach that Mary is the Queen of Heaven and that she has some kind of pull that she can give a good word to Jesus for you when you pray to her! When I go to funerals and they have the service at a Catholic church, I'm just absolutely speechless at some of the things they do and say concerning the dead.

 

[thessalonian]

For crying out loud they teach that Mary is the Queen of Heaven and that she has some kind of pull that she can give a good word to Jesus for you when you pray to her! When I go to funerals and they have the service at a Catholic church, I'm just absolutely speechless at some of the things they do and say concerning the dead.

For crying out loud you say. The Catechism doesn't lie about what Catholicism teaches. It doesn't have selective hearing about what people say at funeral. Hopefully others will do the simple search that shows that you misrepresent the truth of Catholicism. Bearing false witness is not just a command to be employed for those you agree with.

Do you have problems with royalty in heaven. Don't you know that the 12 apostles sit on thrones and judge nations? Matt 12 I believe. You can even find them on thrones in the book of revelations along with the 12 patriarchs of Israel. So why should it bother me if Mary was royalty in heaven as well. "The queen sits at your right hand arrayed in gold" Psalm 35, a psalm regarding the Kingdom of David, which is a forshadowing of the Eternal Kingdom of Christ. And guess who the queen of the Davidic Kindgome was? The mother of the Son. Search the scriptures daily to see if these things are true. Do a search for son and mother and you will find a list of about 40 queen mothers. But it is of little significance in Protestant theology because they are so afriad of "what God has done for me" and calling Mary blessed, though the scriptures say "all ages shall call me blessed".

Blessings

 

[Heidi]

That's better than anihilation for those who were aborted and hell for those of whom you speak as Heidi beleives. Why does the salvatoin of the baby depend on whether the family is doing it so they can have a party or not? Baptism confers the Holy Spirit (acts 2:38 "repent and be BAPTIZED for the forgiveness of sins and YOU SHALL RECIEVE THE HOLY SPIRIT). It can be proven from scripture that babies can recieve the Holy Spirit. Therefore babies should be baptized.

Maybe you would prefer that I make up my own bible. Would you be nicer to me?

Okay, I'll put words in God's mouth. All babies go to heaven. There is no hell and no punishment. There, does that sound better? It sure does to itching ears and i have to admit, I'd love to believe it also. But God tells us that he prepared some for destruction and others for redemption. So I'll go with God no matter how many attacks I get from people who don't want to hear that. I can sure see why Jesus was killed. Most people don't want to hear the truth, but only what they want to hear. :roll:

Maybe I should also start gossiping about members here to other members like people do with me. That seems to be popular here also. So let's see, who should I pick on? How about...you know what? I can't do that. So I'll let others continue to do that if that's where they're at. I want no part of it.

 

[thessalonian]

I didn't say all babies go to heaven.

I said I trust in the MERCY ANNNNNDDD JUSTICE of God in their regard. But trusting in God is not enough for you. I must say they go to hell. You have no passage that says babies who die go to hell. Nor is there one that says they all go to heaven. You think that what you have in the neurons in your head is a passage but it is not. As for being nice you could look in the mirror when you make such accusations. Your hardly a bowl of charity yourself.

 

[sisterchristian]

Let me be clear. I don't believe it has to be in the Bible but the claim is that infant baptism is not so fair is fair. Where is this doctrine of accountablity that you speak of in the Bible? You base concepts of salvation on it you must have a chapter and verse that clearly lays it out?

Can babies recieve the Holy Spirit? You seem to be avoiding that one as well? I'll use the Bible so you can check the scriptures and see if it is so yourself. :wink:

ARE YOU SERIOUS?? Every time someone was baptized in the bible they were at an age were they fully understood what they were doing, including Jesus. Did it ever say anywhere that Jesus was baptized as a baby? I don't think so! So if your just trying to get me to say that the age thing isn't in the Bible, well than Ok, but it is only obvious and makes sense that someone would be baptized at an age where they can actually understand for themselves! Your parents can't help you when you stand before God at judgement day so why do you think that by them baptizing you as a baby will give you some kind of security. Remember that babies have to grow up!

 

[sisterchristian]

For crying out loud you say. The Catechism doesn't lie about what Catholicism teaches. It doesn't have selective hearing about what people say at funeral. Hopefully others will do the simple search that shows that you misrepresent the truth of Catholicism. Bearing false witness is not just a command to be employed for those you agree with.

Do you have problems with royalty in heaven. Don't you know that the 12 apostles sit on thrones and judge nations? Matt 12 I believe. You can even find them on thrones in the book of revelations along with the 12 patriarchs of Israel. So why should it bother me if Mary was royalty in heaven as well. "The queen sits at your right hand arrayed in gold" Psalm 35, a psalm regarding the Kingdom of David, which is a forshadowing of the Eternal Kingdom of Christ. And guess who the queen of the Davidic Kindgome was? The mother of the Son. Search the scriptures daily to see if these things are true. Do a search for son and mother and you will find a list of about 40 queen mothers. But it is of little significance in Protestant theology because they are so afriad of "what God has done for me" and calling Mary blessed, though the scriptures say "all ages shall call me blessed".

Blessings

When you say "the queen sits at the right hand arrayed in Gold" who's right hand are you speaking of??

 

[Heidi]

That's so true because I know people who believe that unless their baby is baptized they will be in Limbo if they die as a baby, and these are Catholics. When in fact if a baby dies they automatically will be with the Lord. So I think that Baptism in the Catholic faith is mostlly tradition because most of the time the people that are having their baby baptised don't even know what they are really doing, they just do it because their parents did it and the parents before that. Sometimes it's just another excuse to have a party (at least in my family)

Amen!

 

[Heidi]

Well first of all heidi says babies who die go to hell so why don't you debate her on that matter. Secondly sin is what prevents us from recieving the Holy Spirit. That is why we have to repent. But a baby as you have noted has no accountability and so there is no barrier to the Holy Spirit entering the baby. My 2 year old certainly can believe in Jesus so why can't she recieve the Holy Spirit?

Thirdly you have two plans of salvation. One for infants and one for those beyond the age of reason, however that can be defended by scripture? (Please show me age of reason in scripture). Jesus is THE WAY....There is only one! You claim two.

Do you deny that a baby can recieve the Holy Spirit? I can prove you wrong with two passages on that one.

I didn't say that all babies who die go to hell. I said that those who are not chosen all die, whether as infants or adults. And that is biblical. So I'd appreciate it if you would read all my posts before making claims about what I say.

 

[sisterchristian]

Maybe you would prefer that I make up my own bible. Would you be nicer to me?

Okay, I'll put words in God's mouth. All babies go to heaven. There is no hell and no punishment. There, does that sound better? It sure does to itching ears and i have to admit, I'd love to believe it also. But God tells us that he prepared some for destruction and others for redemption. So I'll go with God no matter how many attacks I get from people who don't want to hear that. I can sure see why Jesus was killed. Most people don't want to hear the truth, but only what they want to hear. :roll:

Maybe I should also start gossiping about members here to other members like people do with me. That seems to be popular here also. So let's see, who should I pick on? How about...you know what? I can't do that. So I'll let others continue to do that if that's where they're at. I want no part of it.

With all due respect, Why would an innocent baby go to Hell if they died, they have no knowledge of right or wrong.

 

[thessalonian]

ARE YOU SERIOUS?? Every time someone was baptized in the bible they were at an age were they fully understood what they were doing, including Jesus.

This is an assumption that takes liberties with scripture. In several places in the Acts of the Apostles it says that households were baptized. Now tell me how many households in Israel at the time would not have had young children. 3000 were baptized on Pentecost and 4000 a few days later but the scriptures do not tell us what ages they were. That adults were baptized does not prove that infants were not. It is simply bad logic.

So if your just trying to get me to say that the age thing isn't in the Bible, well than Ok, but it is only obvious and makes sense that someone would be baptized at an age where they can actually understand for themselves!

The fallacy here is that you superimpose your view of what baptism is and then declare victory over me. I believe that baptism confers the Holy Spirit just as Acts 2:38 so clearly states and see no reason to deny it to babies since babies can recieve the Holy Spirit as coincidentally John the Baptist proves. "He shall be filled with the Holy Spirit EVEN FROM HIS MOTHERS WOMB". It's in Luke 1 if you want to search the scriptures and see if this is so.

your parents can't help you when you stand before God at judgement day so why do you think that by them baptizing you as a baby will give you some kind of security. Remember that babies have to grow up!

Baptism isn't about the parents and them giving you security. It is about the one way of salvation that involves the Holy Spirit cleansing us of our sin if we have them and indwelling in us. But circumcision in the Old Testament was the precursor to baptism as Paul notes in his writings. It was decided for the child on the 8th day by the parents, including them in the kingdom. The family of God. Baptism as well incorporates one in to the Church, the family of God. I see no reason to exclude babies from the family of God and so I have my children baptized.

 

[sisterchristian]

Baptism isn't about the parents and them giving you security. It is about the one way of salvation that involves the Holy Spirit cleansing us of our sin if we have them and indwelling in us. But circumcision in the Old Testament was the precursor to baptism as Paul notes in his writings. It was decided for the child on the 8th day by the parents, including them in the kingdom. The family of God. Baptism as well incorporates one in to the Church, the family of God. I see no reason to exclude babies from the family of God and so I have my children baptized.

Do you think that Baptism save you? And if it's true that babies can recieve the Holy Spirit when baptized, then why would God require one to be saved to recive the Holy Spirit and than baptized, Like I said before the only reason that babies go to heaven if they die as a baby is because they have no knowledge of right or wrong yet, what could possibly cause a bay to go to Hell?? And the Holy Spirit doesn't automatically enter into a person without them having made a profession for Christ! I don't understand your way of thinking! [/quote][/list][/code]

 

[jgredline]

SisterChristian....
You are a breath of fresh air....

 

[thessalonian]

Do you think that Baptism save you?

Peter says "baptism now saves you". 1 Peter 3:21. Don't know that I would argue with him. There I go again checking the scriptures. But you also superimpose your meaning of the word "saved" over what I post. Saved for me is in a state of grace. It is not a gauranteen as Paul says of the galations "you have fallend from grace, you have been severed from Christ". How can one fall from a tree they were never in. How can a limb be severed from what it was never attached to.

And if it's true that babies can recieve the Holy Spirit when baptized, then why would God require one to be saved to recive the Holy Spirit and than baptized,

Read acts 2:38 very SLOWLY and CAREFULLY. Repent and be baptized for the forgiveness of sins and (THEN) you shall recieve the Holy Spirit.

And the Holy Spirit doesn't automatically enter into a person without them having made a profession for Christ! I don't understand your way of thinking!

Do you doudt what I said about John? HE SHALL BE FILLED WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT EVEN FROM HIS MOTHERS WOMB. Evedently you don't understand God's thinking if you say one must make a profession for Christ in order to recieve the Holy Spirit because John the Baptist proves you wrong. Don't beleive me, read Luke 1. Like zesty italian spaghettie sauce, It's in there.