CHRIST in you...

[Eventide]

IMO it is absolutely vital to know where (for example) meekness comes from...

Does it come for our nature according to the FLESH.. no, of course not, it comes from His divine nature (alone) according to the SPIRIT.

 

[Eventide]

Perhaps one of the most difficult truths of our faith to digest so to speak is this..

That WE are NOT good.. and that there is nothing good in me, that is in my FLESH.. and that conversely, GOD ALONE is GOOD.

The LORD is not working in us to reform or conform OUR OLD MAN, we're to reckon him DEAD.. and the scriptures affirm this in many places..

I am crucified with Christ, nevertheless I live, yet not I, but CHRIST liveth in me.

It's the most staggering and mind boggling gift of grace that we could ever even begin to fathom... CHRIST's infinitely glorious, holy, and majestic life.. IN YOU..

And it can't get ANY BETTER than that !

To God (alone) be the glory !

 

[Eventide]

Perhaps what's just as amazing is that a person does not need to understand any of this in order to be saved.. when the Holy Spirit convinces us of of these staggering issues in life.. sin, righteousness, and judgment.. and they believe that Christ died for their sins.. and they call upon the name of the LORD.. they shall be saved.

IMO it could literally take years to come to the realization that it's all about God's beloved Son, His elect, in Whom His soul delighteth !

The Father loveth the Son and hath given all things into His hand.

 

[Eventide]

The marriage of the Lamb to His wife...

And no doubt the most absolutely mind boggling thing of all about being IN CHRIST.. and having Christ in you...

is that His church is also His WIFE to be...

IMO, we can't even begin to understand...

John simply fell down in worship..

 

[Eventide]

The unsearchable riches of Christ !

And we see dimly.. as through a glass...

 

[Eventide]

The night is far spent... the DAY is at hand...

And we should be able to see that Day approaching..

The Day of the LORD.. the Day of Jesus Christ.. which shall come as a thief in the night and as travail upon a woman with child...

 

[smaller]

Re: To WILL is present with ME...

When any believer is saved by grace through faith... a whole new situation comes to light..

There are now TWO completely contrary natures within me.. within this lump of clay..

And they are always, and will always be CONTRARY to one another..

We all know OUR NATURE very well... because we were here first and we think that we know ourselves so to speak.. but we're in for a rude awakening.. there is NOTHING good in me... and what's WORSE.. to WILL IS PRESENT IN ME..

I have desires, wants, the old nature is corrupt... it is easily deceived by these various lusts... and if that wasn't bad enough.. we also must wrestle against spiritual wickedness in high places.. against the rulers of the darkness of this world..

Then of course we have the meek and lowly, absolutely DIVINE nature of Christ living within this same earthen vessel.. His Spirit in us is love, joy, peace, gentleness, meekness, faith, add everything GOOD..

If there has ever been a blatant, blaring, contrast in scripture... it must be the truth concerning the flesh and the Spirit.

Well, I see you have stepped one step closer to the reality of Romans 9 in the bolded statement above by seeing that as a 'personal' matter.

Paul isolates that same matter, again, personally in 2 Tim. 2:20-21 showing for a fact that 'a man' should seek to purge 'himself' from the vessel of dishonor.

So, you do see that all of us have 'two vessels' in 'one lump' to deal with and to understand.

Where most believers fall flat on their faces in this matter is in identification of the 'other vessel.' Even though the math from scriptures is quite clear.

There is only one other category of 'being' shown in the text to be present with 'mankind' and that is the demonic elements.

Believers always tend to blame the flesh, to blame the old nature, to blame everyone and everything but the demonic. And when they 'do that' they merely serve the fact that that vessel is actually 'in play' and keeping them from seeing the obvious.

Sin is of the devil. No matter what any believer does, the other vessel is not going away, will not change, can not be saved, can not be convinced and does a very good job at covering themselves up within the lump.

It's not a matter of 'just us' as believers in our own 'lump.' There is a vessel of dishonor, period.

So, picture your'self' accurately and you will find that within the lump there is one who is blesssed and one who is utterly cursed to the end.

There you will find an accurate view, and the production of meekness and humbleness, knowing your cohabitant in the lump.

What avails for you as Gods child will avail the other party naught. Therein are those who are led to see 'divided' by Gods Sight. Such are 'split' in two by the Sword of The Word.

enjoy!

smaller

 

[Eventide]

Excellent commentary smaller.. good to hear you !

I hope that I have described the situation according to the scriptures.. although I'm sure that there could be infinitely more to it than what I can see dimly..

Here are my thoughts..

The TWO natures within this earthen vessel are;

1. ME.. who I am from my parents, my Adamic nature according to the FLESH

2. CHRIST, His absolutely divine nature born in me miraculously by the power of the holy Spirit..

NOW, that said... we also know that we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but rather against spiritual wickedness in HIGH PLACES.. (not in us, but in high places.. ie, he is the price of the power of the air)..

Those wicked and spiritual forces can only have success so to speak through my flesh.. because it is corrupt according to deceitful lusts.. although they can do absolutely nothing against Christ in me.. for God can not be tempted with evil, He can not sin, and He is Holy, Just, and Good..

I would sum it up in what I heard a brother say a long time ago..

It's one thing to have a fowl land on your head... it's quite another thing to let it build its nest there..

 

[smaller]

Excellent commentary smaller.. good to hear you !

I hope that I have described the situation according to the scriptures.. although I'm sure that there could be infinitely more to it than what I can see dimly..

Here are my thoughts..

The TWO natures within this earthen vessel are;

1. ME.. who I am from my parents, my Adamic nature according to the FLESH

2. CHRIST, His absolutely divine nature born in me miraculously by the power of the holy Spirit..

NOW, that said... we also know that we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but rather against spiritual wickedness in HIGH PLACES.. (not in us, but in high places.. ie, he is the price of the power of the air)..

Those wicked and spiritual forces can only have success so to speak through my flesh.. because it is corrupt according to deceitful lusts.. although they can do absolutely nothing against Christ in me.. for God can not be tempted with evil, He can not sin, and He is Holy, Just, and Good..

I would sum it up in what I heard a brother say a long time ago..

It's one thing to have a fowl land on your head... it's quite another thing to let it build its nest there..

The scriptural math has been done on this matter and it is quite clear.

All sin. All have sin. Sin is, yes, of the devil.

There is the identity of the vessel of dishonor. It's quite simple.

There is you as Gods child. I respect that matter greatly. But that is not 'all' there is to any of us as believers.

Those who are in Truth will not seek to hide what they 'really' consist of.

And such will not bless, condone or spread what is meant only for 'them' as Gods children to the 'other vessel' that we all factually have.

Therein again are those in Truth divided.

It is one thing to heap up all and only the 'good things' in the text 'to ourselves.' It is quite another matter to come to grips with the fact that zero of those good things apply to the 'other vessel' we factually have.

It is quite another matter to know and understand that simultaneously every dire Word also applies directly to the 'other vessel' that we all factually have.

It's not for everyone to understand. But for those who do see, who are 'led' to see that way, they will see much better. Even while the vessel of dishonor seeks to cover up the facts.

The more scripture light that is shed, the better the facts of darkness, the fact of the vessel of dishonor in all of us will be revealed. That light will avail the other vessel nada. It only serves to inflame and arouse the activities of same.

The harder you look, the harder the attempts at cover up. That's just the way the other vessel operates.

s

 

[Eventide]

I think we might be saying the same things to some extent..

I see all in the first Adam (FLESH) condemned according to scripture, and we know that death has passed upon all men for all have sinned.. and 'sin' can only operate in our FLESH.. and we all have sin in us..

CHRIST in us is the most staggering gift of grace which settles the whole matter entirely and forever.. For there is no sin in Him.. and of course sin, (which we know is from the devil) has absolutely nothing in Him..

 

[smaller]

You wrote earlier of the son of the flesh, Ishmael and the son of promise, Isaac, both of Abraham.

That is an oft repeated matter in the scriptures. For example:

Adam had two sons.
Abraham had two sons.
Isaac had two sons.
Jacob had two sons (from his beloved.)
Joseph had two sons.
Moses had two sons.

All of these sons represent, delineate and divide the same picture, spiritually speaking, that Paul delineates in Galatians 4:

29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

The 'two sons' theme' is a very spiritual matter. And it is 'personal' and spiritually understood when we apply that matter to the 'two vessels.' It is also the same matter as the elder serving the younger. The first and the last. All of these are an identical spiritual teaching.

The vessels of honor are served by the vessels of dishonor.

The vessels of dishonor, the elder, the children of the flesh, the wicked are all physical depictions of those vessels we can not see with 'flesh' eyes.

They are the devil and 'his children.'

This matter is revealed in more ways than I can recount in brief, but a good example is given by Paul in Romans 11 where he shows that the blinded of Israel were in fact blinded by the 'spirit of slumber' which was 'put upon them' by God. This again shows the fact of the vessel of dishonor. Another 'spirit' that was placed in their 'lump.'

And how did that vessel get 'in' their lump? Very easily. Just look:

Mark 4:15
And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

hmmm? There appears to be the person and Satan 'in the heart.'

one vessel

and

another vessel

Anyone who does not see this simplicity is being blinded to the facts of it and the simplicity of it. And that too is by God's sole election for them not to see it.

enjoy!

s

 

[Eventide]

Are you saying that Satan is in us, and that Christ is in us..?

That's what I'm hearing, although I want to be sure and not misunderstand what you're saying.

If that's the case, then I can see in the scriptures that men had demons in them.. although after salvation and the new birth in Christ.. I tend to lean on the understanding that a demon cannot inhabit our earthen vessel along with CHRIST in us.. although certainly demonic forces can still operate through the deceitfulness and corrupt lusts of our flesh.

And again, they have nothing in CHRIST.

 

[Eventide]

Perhaps a valid illustration of this is the man who DID have many demons in him before he met CHRIST.. although to say that he had demons in him afterward would not seem correct imo..

Once again, certainly the demonic forces could still operate through the old Adamic nature.. although completely powerless against our hope of glory, which is truly Christ in us.

 

[smaller]

Are you saying that Satan is in us, and that Christ is in us..?

That's what I'm hearing, although I want to be sure and not misunderstand what you're saying.

If that's the case, then I can see in the scriptures that men had demons in them.. although after salvation and the new birth in Christ.. I tend to lean on the understanding that a demon cannot inhabit our earthen vessel along with CHRIST in us.. although certainly demonic forces can still operate through the deceitfulness and corrupt lusts of our flesh.

And again, they have nothing in CHRIST.

Well, you may choose to believe that, but it certainly isn't a scriptural fact.

Paul openly admitted the presence of evil with him in Romans 7:21 and even stated openly that he had a devil in his flesh in 2 Cor. 12:7. I doubt very much that any of us are 'less' susceptible than that Apostle of TRUTH.

Jesus was pretty clear about the fact that where the Word is sown, Satan enters the heart.

We all have sin, have sinned and sin is and remains factually of the devil.

Everyone who reads Jesus' Words on that matter of the Word being sown and satan's entry into their own heart, and says in their heart, 'this does not happen to me' is in fact being deceived by the 'other vessel.' The vessel of dishonor who has prevailed over truthful sight.

It really doesn't matter to me who sees it or not as I don't control that matter. I do accept it to be a fact for myself, and that tends to keep me on guard and on the right path. The 'adversaries' we wrestle with are factual and are also 'internal and unseen.'

It's not 'just me' engaged in the matters. Nor is it 'just you.'

s

 

[smaller]

Perhaps a valid illustration of this is the man who DID have many demons in him before he met CHRIST.. although to say that he had demons in him afterward would not seem correct imo..

Once again, certainly the demonic forces could still operate through the old Adamic nature.. although completely powerless against our hope of glory, which is truly Christ in us.

I am always reminded of John the Apostles statements of facts on matters of sin.

We can 'not' say we have no sin and be 'in Truth.' Having sin is a present tense matter whether it is seen openly on the outside or not. A single stray evil thought is sin.

Jesus advised us clearly that evil comes from 'within.'

And sin is of course of the devil.

So again, the math is abundantly clear. But the vessel of dishonor 'within' does not allow the vessel of honor to see the facts of his deceptions.

Those who do see, once they are 'allowed' to see the fact by God in Christ will see accurately and they will also quickly 'divide.'

s

 

[Eventide]

Greater is HE that is IN YOU than he that is in the WORLD..

Well, you may choose to believe that, but it certainly isn't a scriptural fact.

Paul openly admitted the presence of evil with him in Romans 7:21 and even stated openly that he had a devil in his flesh in 2 Cor. 12:7. I doubt very much that any of us are 'less' susceptible than that Apostle of TRUTH.

The Apostle Paul is not saying that Satan was in him.. imo you'd really need to stretch this verse to make it say that.. and we also know that a brother can be removed from the assembly because of serious sin, and that he would be turned over to Satan for the destruction of his flesh..

Why would he need to be turned over to the world if Satan is in him already..? ? And imo it doesn't make much sense for the Lord to teach us that He does cast out demons in us (prior to knowing Christ), if a Christian remains in that same state afterwards. Would we still refer to the possessed man as LEGION after meeting CHRIST ?

Jesus was pretty clear about the fact that where the Word is sown, Satan enters the heart.

We all have sin, have sinned and sin is and remains factually of the devil.

We all certainly have sin in us.. although that's not the same thing as saying that Satan is in us.. sin is falling short of the GLORY of GOD.. and where the word is sown is speaking about before a person is IN Christ (that's how we're born again, by the incorruptible seed of the word of God).. not afterward... because again we don't see the tares IN the wheat, we see them growing together (up into its head), along with the wheat..

Certainly an interesting discussion, and I hope others share their thoughts on this matter.

Everyone who reads Jesus' Words on that matter of the Word being sown and satan's entry into their own heart, and says in their heart, 'this does not happen to me' is in fact being deceived by the 'other vessel.' The vessel of dishonor who has prevailed over truthful sight.

IMO we do wrestle against spiritual wickedness in HIGH PLACES... that's specific isn't it.. why wouldn't the Holy Spirit just come out and say "within the Christian"..? He doesn't, He says in high places.. against the rulers of the darkness of this WORLD.

It really doesn't matter to me who sees it or not as I don't control that matter. I do accept it to be a fact for myself, and that tends to keep me on guard and on the right path. The 'adversaries' we wrestle with are factual and are also 'internal and unseen.'

It's not 'just me' engaged in the matters. Nor is it 'just you.'

s

No doubt our hope of GLORY is Christ in us.. not Christ AND us.. all flesh in the first Adam is condemned.. imo that's a fundamental biblical fact.. which we see right before our eyes every single day.. DEATH..

I would see your model of this as THREE natures living within the same lump..

1. ME, my Adamic nature according to the FLESH
2. Satan.. the god of this world
3. Christ's divine nature.

Is that fair enough to say ?

 

[Eventide]

I am always reminded of John the Apostles statements of facts on matters of sin.

We can 'not' say we have no sin and be 'in Truth.' Having sin is a present tense matter whether it is seen openly on the outside or not. A single stray evil thought is sin.

I agree that if we say that we have no sin that the truth can't be in us.. because that is what that TRUE LIGHT reveals.. sin in us..

Jesus advised us clearly that evil comes from 'within.'

And sin is of course of the devil.

So again, the math is abundantly clear. But the vessel of dishonor 'within' does not allow the vessel of honor to see the facts of his deceptions.

No doubt that our flesh is contrary to the SPIRIT of Christ in us.. and that there is a war within our members..

Those who do see, once they are 'allowed' to see the fact by God in Christ will see accurately and they will also quickly 'divide.'

s

Well, I've had His true light in me for many years now.. and I've never been convicted (convinced) that this is a matter of only Satan verses God, which is what you may be trying to suggest here.. because my FLESH which I inherited from my natural parents has nothing good in it.. and I know that I have certainly been subjected to the deception of the god of this world in many matters.. and not only that.. willful disobedience at times to my Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ..

I certainly don't blame Satan for sins which I did knowingly in this body of mine.. he may certainly be a large part of the deception involved.. but not the disobedience..

Christ died for OUR sin, not the Devil.. imo.. at least.

 

[Eventide]

the man was NOT deceived..

I think we can learn much from the events which transpired in the beginning..

Paul tells us that the woman was deceived.. but that the MAN was NOT deceived.. iow he knew full well what he was doing and did it anyway, that's DISOBEDIENCE.. and we see that judgment came upon the MAN, upon ADAM.. and that the woman would be saved in child bearing..

Interesting to say the least..

There's a massive difference between deception and flat out disobedience.. at least imo..

And of course we know Satan's ultimate demise.. but we need to be careful because he is the god of this world.. to this day.

Although he won't be in That Day.. the Day of the LORD, the Day of Jesus Christ..

For the Lord shall destroy that man of sin with the brightness of His coming.. in the Day of Jesus Christ.. when the kingdoms of this WORLD shall become the kingdoms of our GOD and of His CHRIST.. and we can see that Day approaching.

 

[smaller]

Re: Greater is HE that is IN YOU than he that is in the WORLD..

The Apostle Paul is not saying that Satan was in him.. imo you'd really need to stretch this verse to make it say that..

The alternative is to make only Paul evil. That is not an option.

If that option is selected there is zero reason to believe an admittedly evil man.

and we also know that a brother can be removed from the assembly because of serious sin, and that he would be turned over to Satan for the destruction of his flesh..

Indeed. People can assuredly be slaves of the demonic. Particularly if they openly demonstrate such slavery. I would consider not speaking truthfully one area to examine for a quick check on the slavery factor. Also on the hypocrisy factor.

Why would he need to be turned over to the world if Satan is in him already..?

Perhaps to arouse the fact of slaveship unto truthful realization in order for the person to be divided.

? And imo it doesn't make much sense for the Lord to teach us that He does cast out demons in us (prior to knowing Christ), if a Christian remains in that same state afterwards. Would we still refer to the possessed man as LEGION after meeting CHRIST ?

That man still could not say he had no sin and be 'in Truth.' Certain types of entities can be cast out. Does not equate that the fact of future intrusions or the perpetual wrestling match with the vessel(s) of dishonor are eradicated or ceases. Knowledge of the fact itself provides nearly instantaneous division, mentally speaking.

A believer who does not know, simply does not know.

We all certainly have sin in us..although that's not the same thing as saying that Satan is in us.

I have found it problematic to say sin is not of the devil as it assuredly 'is' or we have to toss out 1 John 3:8 for example. Tossing isn't an option.

. sin is falling short of the GLORY of GOD.. and where the word is sown is speaking about before a person is IN Christ (that's how we're born again, by the incorruptible seed of the word of God).. not afterward... because again we don't see the tares IN the wheat, we see them growing together (up into its head), along with the wheat..

Spell the math however you can see it. The facts aren't going to change with relationship to sin being of the devil. That fact categorically places sin of the devil (or his cohorts) within the heart as that is where the origination of evil begins.

The N.T. Gospels are filled to the brim, almost on every page, of Jesus dealing with demonic influences within people and is inclusive of disciples and even apostles. That influence does not magically disappear upon conversion. In most cases it is actually enhanced and shown by simple blindness to the facts and the connections to 'our own sin.' Most will readily admit they have sin and continue to sin in thought, word and deed.

Few can take the factual step that sin is of the devil. That part will automatically stick in the craw by the fact of that working. They just aren't allowed to see it by that other operating entity(s.)

The pride of internal resistance in them will not allow it to happen, and instead another hypocrite is raised in the lump.

Such workings are overcome by simply being truthful to the Word regardless of the tangibility of the facts of the experience. Most believers only think of demonic influences in one of two ways.

A. not in my case
B. if so, only intermittently meaning seldom if ever

I enjoy seeing believers try to dance around the facts of these matters as I understand it really is not 'them' as Gods children doing the avoidance dance.

IMO we do wrestle against spiritual wickedness in HIGH PLACES... that's specific isn't it.. why wouldn't the Holy Spirit just come out and say "within the Christian"..? He doesn't, He says in high places.. against the rulers of the darkness of this WORLD.

Well my friend, believers seem to do just about anything rather than confront the working reality of other entities not them in their own hearts and minds. There is a much simpler truth. We all have sin and sin is of the devil. There is no way to dodge the obvious other than to 'not be' desiring the truth of the fact. In the case of demonic influences 'internal' for most believers it's usually never within them. That's way too close to home for the common folk. And believers just don't like to hear this matter. They'd rather pretend they are only good and accept only all the good parts for themselves. Even when the reality of adversity sits square in their face. That is God dealing with the other party(s) and they still don't see it or understand it.

That is 'why' we experience tribulations. It is God in Christ dealing with the vessel of dishonor within us.

No doubt our hope of GLORY is Christ in us.. not Christ AND us.. all flesh in the first Adam is condemned.. imo that's a fundamental biblical fact.. which we see right before our eyes every single day.. DEATH..

Blame of everything but is the typical dance that is invoked. Adam, flesh, ego, just about anything but the devil.

Never can that be the case can it?

I would see your model of this as THREE natures living within the same lump..

1. ME, my Adamic nature according to the FLESH
2. Satan.. the god of this world
3. Christ's divine nature.

Is that fair enough to say ?

Yes, I would accept the 123 above. Paul may have described his blinded nature as his old man, the Saul who did not see he was a demonic slave. Even thinking like most it was only him there in his own lump.

Paul in his call to Apostleship was even commanded by the decree of Jesus to turn people from the power of the devil unto God. That is where all unbelievers reside. Under the power and influences of the devil. That was his exact dictate of faith and it started with him seeing himself accurately, which he detailed for those who can see it.

A carnal christian simply does not see it. And they can't and they won't until they are first honest with 'themself.'

They just don't have a good grip in the dynamic Divine Tensions of the matters and will 'all' invariably deny that internal influence because they just can't see it. And they won't. Only God in Christ can instill that kind of brutal honesty.

I believe wholeheartedly that God in Christ prevails for #1 in your list and simultaneously provokes party #2 in your list.

One of them is saved. The other, uh, no. Not a chance.

When believers do not factor in #2 as an internal influence they are just not seeing accurately and they can't because God Himself has not allowed them a peek inside their own box with honesty. That is all it takes to see it.

Simple Divine Honesty. This only comes from Above.

And those who can not be honest about it are readily apparent in numerous 'moves' and all kinds of fancy pirouettes called theology by 10,000 different angles, but all designed to avoid this one simple connection.

Even predictable moves that are shown repeatedly in the text to those who have seen this through the eyes of honesty. These will be shown 'more light' on these matters for personal applications. And they start to see things in a better light.

I think you and I have run this drill a few times now. You seem to be getting a little closer to the facts over time. It took me quite awhile to sort through this matter from a scriptural standpoint. I did not swallow the fact whole at first either, but studied it out for over 3 years. And saw things that were blocked to me prior.

Honesty opens most scriptural doors. Those who seek that way will be led in deeper, but there is a purposeful dark keeper at their Gate that must be gotten by first. Otherwise, no dice.

s

 

[Eventide]

smaller, I really appreciate your thoughts here.. imo this is an important topic which does get right to the heart of the matter so to speak

I'm certainly open to your model of THREE.. and we're actually pretty close to begin with.. because I see our earthen vessel as being only my Adamic nature and the divine nature of Christ.. along with the spiritual wickedness being an EXTERNAL force.. not internal.. and yet at the same time I think that these external evil forces successfully work in OUR flesh, when we fall into sin, which so easily besets us.. and that they have nothing IN CHRIST, our hope of glory.

God alone is good.

Excellent thoughts and once again, greatly appreciated.. it's clear that you've had years of 'hands on' experience in this Christian life of ours..