Christ Mythicism: Recommended Reading

[T. E. Smith]

The Christ Myth theory, which I hold to, states that no prophet named Jesus ever existed and that the man is fully mythical. This position is a minority one among scholars, and is not well understood. The following list of resources is a selection of the books considered most authoritative on the subject of Christ Mythicsm.

I've read them all, and have organized the authors in order based on who I've found most helpful and/or who is considered most authoritative. However, don't think that an author in spot 4 or 5 is not worth reading.

The point of this thread is not to spark debate or contention, and it is not to provide a Christ Myth apologetic. It is a resource list. Though I'd love to debate the topic - not here.

1. Richard C. Carrier
   • On the Historicity of Jesus: Why We Might Have Reason for Doubt. This is the most comprehensive and scholarly work on the subject. This was the first book I read on the subject, but looking back, I would not recommend reading it first. Though it is extremely well-researched and makes an excellent case, it is a dense and difficult read.
   • Jesus from Outer Space: What the Earliest Christians Really Believed about Christ. This is basically a general-audience version of On the Historicity of Jesus. An easy read and preserves everything important in his previous book.
   • Not the Impossible Faith. This is a direct rebuttal to J.P. Holding's book The Impossible Faith. Carrier debunks the intriguing apologetics idea that Christianity's craziness makes it true.
2. Robert M. Price
   • The Incredible Shrinking Son of Man: How Reliable is the Gospel Tradition? An excellent book that systematically discusses the gospels and shows that they are not at all reliable. The ultimate conclusion is that if there ever was a man named Jesus, all we have about him is complete fiction.
   • The Case Against The Case for Christ. In this remarkable rebuttal of Lee Strobel's apologetics book, Price refutes every argument Strobel makes, and in so doing wipes out the general apologetics arguments and promotes a Christ myth theory.
3. Earl Doherty
   • Jesus: Neither God Nor Man - The Case For A Mythical Jesus. Superbly written, logical, well-documented. Much more well written than Carrier's book, but not nearly as scholarly (though still appropriately researched). Definitely get the revised and expanded edition.
4. Thomas L. Brodie
   • Beyond the Quest for the Historical Jesus: A Memoir of a Discovery. Jesus did not exist as a historical individual but is rather a literary model taken from Elijah and Elisha. He develops a metaphorical, iconic view of Jesus. Takes a very different angle from the books of most atheist mythicists, and will probably appeal most to Christians out of all these books. He is not a dogmatic thinker.
5. Thomas L. Thompson
   • Is This Not the Carpenter?: The Question of the Historicity of the Figure of Jesus. A collection of chapters edited by Thomas Thompson and Thomas Verenna. A helpful resource, but not general-audience friendly.
   • The Messiah Myth: The Near Eastern Roots of Jesus and David. Compares Jesus and King David to show that Jesus is essentially a metaphor and combination of various Near Eastern themes. He also argues that King David had almost no historical backing at all (one bit of evidence confirms that he was real, but only supports a minimal view of his historicity).

 

[Paul E. Michael]

The Christ Myth theory, which I hold to, states that no prophet named Jesus ever [sic] existed and that the man is fully mythical.

Can something other than a myth be mythical? But no man is a myth, so how can a man be mythical? A myth is something composed of words, is it not? Would you say that a man is something composed of words? Are you a man? Would you say you are something composed of words?

 

[T. E. Smith]

Can something other than a myth be mythical? But no man is a myth, so how can a man be mythical? A myth is something composed of words, is it not? Would you say that a man is something composed of words? Are you a man? Would you say you are something composed of words?

The New Oxford Dictionary of American English gives as a possible definition of myth: "A fictitious or imaginary person or thing." Your point is just semantics and is not even consistent with the way "myth" is used in the English language. It is perfectly reasonable to describe a person or thing as a myth, not just to describe a story as a myth.

 

[Paul E. Michael]

The New Oxford Dictionary of American English gives as a possible definition of myth: "A fictitious or imaginary person or thing." Your point is just semantics and is not even consistent with the way "myth" is used in the English language. It is perfectly reasonable to describe a person or thing as a myth, not just to describe a story as a myth.

I asked you: "Can something other than a myth be mythical? [Yes or No?]"

You: <NO ANSWER>

I asked you: "A myth is something composed of words, is it not? [Is it, or is it not?]"

You: <NO ANSWER>

I asked you: "Would you say that a man is something composed of words? [Yes or No? Either a man is something composed of words or it is not; so, is a man something composed of words? Yes or No?]"

You: <NO ANSWER>

 

[Niblo]

The New Oxford Dictionary of American English gives as a possible definition of myth: "A fictitious or imaginary person or thing." Your point is just semantics and is not even consistent with the way "myth" is used in the English language. It is perfectly reasonable to describe a person or thing as a myth, not just to describe a story as a myth.

Such as the fat, jolly, geezer with a red suit and white beard, who lives in the North Pole!

 

[T. E. Smith]

I asked you: "Can something other than a myth be mythical? [Yes or No?]"

You: <NO ANSWER>

I asked you: "A myth is something composed of words, is it not? [Is it, or is it not?]"

You: <NO ANSWER>

I asked you: "Would you say that a man is something composed of words? [Yes or No? Either a man is something composed of words or it is not; so, is a man something composed of words? Yes or No?]"

You: <NO ANSWER>

To the first, no by definition, but a man can be mythical and a myth.
To the second, not always
To the third, no

 

[Paul E. Michael]

To the first, no by definition, but a man can be mythical and a myth.
To the second, not always
To the third, no

I asked you: "Would you say that a man is something composed of words?
You answered: "no"

Of what, then, would you say a man is composed?

And, since you say that a myth is "not always" composed of words, of what would you say a myth is composed—one which you'd say is not composed of words?

 

[T. E. Smith]

I asked you: "Would you say that a man is something composed of words?
You answered: "no"

Of what, then, would you say a man is composed?

And, since you say that a myth is "not always" composed of words, of what would you say a myth is composed—one which you'd say is not composed of words?

What are you talking about? A man is composed of flesh and blood, so to speak. Atoms. A "myth" can refer to an imaginary or fictious person, as I am using it here.

I'm not going to discuss this word game with you further.

 

[Paul E. Michael]

Such as the fat, jolly, geezer with a red suit and white beard, who lives in the North Pole!

By your phrase, "the fat, jolly, geezer with a red suit and white beard, who lives in the North Pole," are you referring to a man? If you are referring to a man, then you're referring to a man who does not live in the North Pole, since no man lives there. You can Google the phrase, "does any man live in the north pole," and the first thing they hand you is National Geographic telling you that "No one actually lives at the North Pole." Do you disagree with this statement from National Geographic?

Why, then, would you use your phrase, "the fat, jolly, geezer with a red suit and white beard, who lives in the North Pole," to refer to someone who does not live at the North Pole?

 

[T. E. Smith]

By your phrase, "the fat, jolly, geezer with a red suit and white beard, who lives in the North Pole," are you referring to a man? If you are referring to a man, then you're referring to a man who does not live in the North Pole, since no man lives there. You can Google the phrase, "does any man live in the north pole," and the first thing they hand you is National Geographic telling you that "No one actually lives at the North Pole." Do you disagree with this statement from National Geographic?

Why, then, would you use your phrase, "the fat, jolly, geezer with a red suit and white beard, who lives in the North Pole," to refer to someone who does not live at the North Pole?

Obviously Niblo is saying that Santa supposedly lives at the North Pole. Must you be so insufferable, Paul? You won't make any friends this way.

 

[Paul E. Michael]

What are you talking about? A man is composed of flesh and blood, so to speak. Atoms. A "myth" can refer to an imaginary or fictious person, as I am using it here.

I'm not going to discuss this word game with you further.

"A man is composed of flesh and blood, so to speak."

Is a myth composed of flesh and blood? Yes or No?

I asked you: "And, since you say that a myth is "not always" composed of words, of what would you say a myth is composed—one which you'd say is not composed of words?"

You: <NO ANSWER>

 

[Paul E. Michael]

Obviously Niblo is saying that Santa supposedly lives at the North Pole. Must you be so insufferable, Paul? You won't make any friends this way.

By your word, "Santa," are you referring to something composed of flesh and blood? Yes or No?

 

[Paul E. Michael]

The Christ Myth theory, which I hold to, states that no prophet named Jesus ever existed and that the man is fully mythical.

If, by your word, "Jesus," you are referring to a myth, then, by your word, "Jesus," you are not referring to Jesus Christ, nor to any other man, since Jesus Christ is a man, and since to be a man is to not be a myth.

 

[Hidden In Him]

The Christ Myth theory, which I hold to, states that no prophet named Jesus ever existed and that the man is fully mythical. This position is a minority one among scholars, and is not well understood. The following list of resources is a selection of the books considered most authoritative on the subject of Christ Mythicsm.

Such as the fat, jolly, geezer with a red suit and white beard, who lives in the North Pole!

LoL. Gentlemen, don't you think it's stretching it a little to say these comments fall within the purview of "Biblical Growth"?

 

[T. E. Smith]

LoL. Gentlemen, don't you think it's stretching it a little to say these comments fall within the purview of "Biblical Growth"?

Under the section Church History and Archeology.

 

[hawkman]

Under the section Church History and Archeology.

The Church of Jesus is not real ?

 

[T. E. Smith]

The Church of Jesus is not real ?

The question: did Jesus (an important figure in church history) ever exist? This is a list of books by people who don't think so.

 

[hawkman]

The question: did Jesus (an important figure in church history) ever exist? This is a list of books by people who don't think so.

I see that . Since I am 100% sure Jesus existed why would I waste my time and read a book I know is a lie ? Besides I do not want to fund more of this .

 

[Hidden In Him]

Under the section Church History and Archeology.

Come on, T.E.

"Jesus From Outer Space" makes a rather strange bed fellow with Church History AND archeology.

 

[Hidden In Him]

The Christ Myth theory, which I hold to, states that no prophet named Jesus ever existed and that the man is fully mythical. This position is a minority one among scholars, and is not well understood. The following list of resources is a selection of the books considered most authoritative on the subject of Christ Mythicsm.

I've read them all, and have organized the authors in order based on who I've found most helpful and/or who is considered most authoritative. However, don't think that an author in spot 4 or 5 is not worth reading.

The point of this thread is not to spark debate or contention, and it is not to provide a Christ Myth apologetic. It is a resource list. Though I'd love to debate the topic - not here.

1. Richard C. Carrier
   • On the Historicity of Jesus: Why We Might Have Reason for Doubt. This is the most comprehensive and scholarly work on the subject. This was the first book I read on the subject, but looking back, I would not recommend reading it first. Though it is extremely well-researched and makes an excellent case, it is a dense and difficult read.
   • Jesus from Outer Space: What the Earliest Christians Really Believed about Christ. This is basically a general-audience version of On the Historicity of Jesus. An easy read and preserves everything important in his previous book.
   • Not the Impossible Faith. This is a direct rebuttal to J.P. Holding's book The Impossible Faith. Carrier debunks the intriguing apologetics idea that Christianity's craziness makes it true.
2. Robert M. Price
   • The Incredible Shrinking Son of Man: How Reliable is the Gospel Tradition? An excellent book that systematically discusses the gospels and shows that they are not at all reliable. The ultimate conclusion is that if there ever was a man named Jesus, all we have about him is complete fiction.
   • The Case Against The Case for Christ. In this remarkable rebuttal of Lee Strobel's apologetics book, Price refutes every argument Strobel makes, and in so doing wipes out the general apologetics arguments and promotes a Christ myth theory.
3. Earl Doherty
   • Jesus: Neither God Nor Man - The Case For A Mythical Jesus. Superbly written, logical, well-documented. Much more well written than Carrier's book, but not nearly as scholarly (though still appropriately researched). Definitely get the revised and expanded edition.
4. Thomas L. Brodie
   • Beyond the Quest for the Historical Jesus: A Memoir of a Discovery. Jesus did not exist as a historical individual but is rather a literary model taken from Elijah and Elisha. He develops a metaphorical, iconic view of Jesus. Takes a very different angle from the books of most atheist mythicists, and will probably appeal most to Christians out of all these books. He is not a dogmatic thinker.
5. Thomas L. Thompson
   • Is This Not the Carpenter?: The Question of the Historicity of the Figure of Jesus. A collection of chapters edited by Thomas Thompson and Thomas Verenna. A helpful resource, but not general-audience friendly.
   • The Messiah Myth: The Near Eastern Roots of Jesus and David. Compares Jesus and King David to show that Jesus is essentially a metaphor and combination of various Near Eastern themes. He also argues that King David had almost no historical backing at all (one bit of evidence confirms that he was real, but only supports a minimal view of his historicity).

Here is the problem I have with this hypothesis: The apostles anticipated it, and stated quite plainly that they were NOT following myths but had been eyewitnesses to His glory.

People are free to question the veracity of that claim, but the question becomes this: If it was all just a myth and a lie, how did Christianity overcome the ancient world to become the most dominant and powerful religion on planet earth?