Christ was formed in the beginning of creation by Yahwah.

[CherubRam]

Then why are you teaching it!

This is what I teach:
Christ speaking to Daniel about Michael.
Daniel 10:5-6
5 I looked up and there before me was a man dressed in linen, with a belt of fine gold from Uphaz around his waist. 6 His body was like topaz, his face like lightning, his eyes like flaming torches, his arms and legs like the gleam of burnished bronze, and his voice like the sound of a multitude.

Speaking of the last days.
Dan 10:14 Now I am come to make thee understand what shall befall thy people in the latter days: for yet the vision is for many days.

Dan12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up,…

So how do we know the person speaking to Daniel is Christ, it is because the book of Revelation tells us so?
Revelation 1:13-15
13 and among the lampstands was someone like a son of man, dressed in a robe reaching down to his feet and with a golden sash around his chest. 14 The hair on his head was white like wool, as white as snow, and his eyes were like blazing fire. His feet were like bronze glowing in a furnace, and his voice was like the sound of rushing waters.

Revelation 2:18
To the Church in Thyatira
“To the messenger of the church in Thyatira write: These are the words of the Son of God, whose eyes are like blazing fire and whose feet are like burnished bronze.



Odd.
Revelation 1:13
13 and among the lampstands was someone like a son of man, dressed in a robe reaching down to his feet and with a golden sash around his chest.

The Greek text says his "breast" were bound. (girded) But the translators gave the interpretation "chest."

Although not impossible, just extremely unlikely. Perhaps someone thought it funny to replace the word "waist" with "breast."

 

[CherubRam]

"Michael, referred to by some religions as “Saint Michael,” is evidently a name given to Jesus before and after his life on earth.
...
Consider why it is reasonable to conclude that Jesus is the archangel Michael."

https://www.jw.org/en/bible-teachings/questions/archangel-michael/


There is Michael mentioned in the Bible who is born in the last days. Every mention of Michael from Dan. 10 to Rev. 12 is the archangel:

Dan 10:13 The prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me twenty-one days, but Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, for I was left there with the kings of Persia,

Jud 1:9 But when the archangel Michael, contending with the devil, was disputing about the body of Moses, he did not presume to pronounce a blasphemous judgment, but said, “The Lord rebuke you.”

Rev_12:7 Now war arose in heaven, Michael and his angels fighting against the dragon. And the dragon and his angels fought back,

(All ESV.)

Iran is now the fastest growing church in the world.

The prince of the kingdom of (Iran / Persia) withstood me (twenty-one days = 21century)

 

[Free]

Iran is now the fastest growing church in the world.

Which has nothing to do with anything in this discussion.

The prince of the kingdom of (Iran / Persia) withstood me (twenty-one days = 21century)

First, what does “21century mean”? Second, provide evidence that 21 days equals “21century.”

 

[CherubRam]

Which has nothing to do with anything in this discussion.


First, what does “21century mean”? Second, provide evidence that 21 days equals “21century.”

Dan 10:13 But the prince of the Persian kingdom resisted me twenty-one days. Then Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, because I was detained there with the king of Persia. 14 Now I have come to explain to you what will happen to your people in the future, for the vision concerns a time yet to come.”
21 but first I will tell you what is written in the Book of Truth. (No one supports me against them except Michael, your (minister / prince.)

2 Peter 3:8
But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day.

Is the parable about a literal 21 days, or is it about the 21st century, or is it about 21,000 years?

 

[JLB]

That's the problem, you are reading corrupted scriptures. You need a better bible.

Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”
Then they took up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by. John 8:58-59


Why did the Jews take up stones to stone Him, when He said the words… before Abraham was, I AM?




JLB

 

[JLB]

You sure don't pay attention very well and also make a multitude of false allegations.

Use scripture rather than your own words.


Jesus is YHWH; the Lord God.


“Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel,
And his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts:
I am the First and I am the Last;
Besides Me there is no God.
Isaiah 44:6


“And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.” Revelation 22:12-13





JLB

 

[Free]

Dan 10:13 But the prince of the Persian kingdom resisted me twenty-one days. Then Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, because I was detained there with the king of Persia. 14 Now I have come to explain to you what will happen to your people in the future, for the vision concerns a time yet to come.”
21 but first I will tell you what is written in the Book of Truth. (No one supports me against them except Michael, your (minister / prince.)

How is it that you don’t see there is both present tense and future tense?

Dan 10:12 Then he said to me, “Fear not, Daniel, for from the first day that you set your heart to understand and humbled yourself before your God, your words have been heard, and I have come because of your words.
Dan 10:13 The prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me twenty-one days, but Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, for I was left there with the kings of Persia,
Dan 10:14 and came to make you understand what is to happen to your people in the latter days. For the vision is for days yet to come.” (ESV)

The angel comes, having fought against the Prince of Persia, with the help of Michael. That had just happened prior to his appearing before Daniel. The vision is what he tells in Dan 11; those things which were yet to come. I really don’t understand how you can’t see that.

2 Peter 3:8
But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day.

Is the parable about a literal 21 days, or is it about the 21st century, or is it about 21,000 years?

“A day is like a thousand years.” It’s not equating the two; it’s called a similie.

 

[CherubRam]

Use scripture rather than your own words.


Jesus is YHWH; the Lord God.


“Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel,
And his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts:
I am the First and I am the Last;
Besides Me there is no God.
Isaiah 44:6


“And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.” Revelation 22:12-13





JLB

"The Lord" is Yahwah our Father.

First and Last

Isaiah 41:4
4 Who has done this and carried it through,
calling forth the generations from the beginning?
I, (the Lord / Yahwah)—with the first of them
and with the last—I am he.”

Isaiah 44:6
“This is what (the Lord / Yahwah) says— Israel’s King and Redeemer, (the Lord / Yahwah) Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God.

Isaiah 48:12
“Listen to me, Jacob, Israel, whom I have called: I am he; I am the first and I am the last.
Isaiah 48 is Yahwah – interpreted as “The Lord.”



Here is the correct translation.
Isaiah 9:6
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: And the government shall be upon his shoulders: And he shall be called Wonderful Counselor of the Mighty God and Everlasting Father; (שַׂר / minister-ing) in peace.



Rev 1 and 21 should read First and Last.
Revelation 1:8
“I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.”

Revelation 21:6
He said to me: “It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To the thirsty I will give water without cost from the spring of the water of life.

Revelation 22:13
I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.

The proof that God exist is in the fact that spontaneous evolution of life is not possible in this universe. God evolved, then He created. From the Subatomic and the primordial Dark Matter. A type of nothing, because it has no atomic bonds to form anything. God created gravity and gravitons to form the atomic elements of this Universe.

In regards to Yahshua the Messiah. This is how the verse should read.
Hebrews 7:3
Without father or mother, without genealogy, beginning of days without end of life, resembling the Son of God, he remains a priest forever.
Yahshua had no father until he was adopted by the Father, Yahwah.
The Trinitarian doctrine states that the members of the Trinity are co-equal, for which does not agree with scriptures. "Holy Spirit" is a title for Yahwah the Father, and Christ said the Father is greater than himself.

Psalm 2:7
I will proclaim the Lord’s decree: He said to me, “You are my son; today I have become your father.

 

[CherubRam]

How is it that you don’t see there is both present tense and future tense?

Dan 10:12 Then he said to me, “Fear not, Daniel, for from the first day that you set your heart to understand and humbled yourself before your God, your words have been heard, and I have come because of your words.
Dan 10:13 The prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me twenty-one days, but Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, for I was left there with the kings of Persia,
Dan 10:14 and came to make you understand what is to happen to your people in the latter days. For the vision is for days yet to come.” (ESV)

The angel comes, having fought against the Prince of Persia, with the help of Michael. That had just happened prior to his appearing before Daniel. The vision is what he tells in Dan 11; those things which were yet to come. I really don’t understand how you can’t see that.


“A day is like a thousand years.” It’s not equating the two; it’s called a similie.

"what will happen to your people in the future, for the vision concerns a time yet to come.”

 

[Randy]

Dan 10:13 But the prince of the Persian kingdom resisted me twenty-one days. Then Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, because I was detained there with the king of Persia. 14 Now I have come to explain to you what will happen to your people in the future, for the vision concerns a time yet to come.”
21 but first I will tell you what is written in the Book of Truth. (No one supports me against them except Michael, your (minister / prince.)

2 Peter 3:8
But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day.

Is the parable about a literal 21 days, or is it about the 21st century, or is it about 21,000 years?

"One" of the chief princes vs the "only" begotten Son.

Hebrews 1
New Revised Standard Version, Anglicised Catholic Edition​

Michael bows to Jesus.
6 And again, when he brings the firstborn into the world, he says,
‘Let all God’s angels worship him.’

In regard to Daniel 12

Matthew 24
New Revised Standard Version, Anglicised Catholic Edition​

The Coming of the Son of Man=> Daniel 7 not Daniel 12​

29 ‘Immediately after the suffering of those days

the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from heaven,
and the powers of heaven will be shaken.
30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see “the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven” with power and great glory. 31 And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

As you pointed out Michael is not the name given for the Lord.

You see the Son but you are having difficultly accepting the nature found in the Son. Col 1:19 - all the fullness of God and if you accept the Father as the only true Diety than its the Fathers Deity without limit. They are ONE.

 

[CherubRam]

"One" of the chief princes vs the "only" begotten Son.

Hebrews 1​

New Revised Standard Version, Anglicised Catholic Edition​

Michael bows to Jesus.
6 And again, when he brings the firstborn into the world, he says,
‘Let all God’s angels worship him.’

In regard to Daniel 12

Matthew 24​

New Revised Standard Version, Anglicised Catholic Edition​

The Coming of the Son of Man=> Daniel 7 not Daniel 12​

29 ‘Immediately after the suffering of those days

the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from heaven,
and the powers of heaven will be shaken.
30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see “the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven” with power and great glory. 31 And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

As you pointed out Michael is not the name given for the Lord.

You see the Son but you are having difficultly accepting the nature found in the Son. Col 1:19 - all the fullness of God and if you accept the Father as the only true Diety than its the Fathers Deity without limit. They are ONE.

Unity does not mean Trinity.

 

[CherubRam]

My computer is under attack here.

 

[Free]

"what will happen to your people in the future, for the vision concerns a time yet to come.”

Yes, I pointed that out, but it doesn't at all say what you think it says.

Dan 10:1 In the third year of Cyrus king of Persia a word was revealed to Daniel, who was named Belteshazzar. And the word was true, and it was a great conflict. And he understood the word and had understanding of the vision.
...
Dan 10:4 On the twenty-fourth day of the first month, as I was standing on the bank of the great river (that is, the Tigris)
Dan 10:5 I lifted up my eyes and looked, and behold, a man clothed in linen, with a belt of fine gold from Uphaz around his waist.
Dan 10:6 His body was like beryl, his face like the appearance of lightning, his eyes like flaming torches, his arms and legs like the gleam of burnished bronze, and the sound of his words like the sound of a multitude.
Dan 10:7 And I, Daniel, alone saw the vision, for the men who were with me did not see the vision, but a great trembling fell upon them, and they fled to hide themselves.
Dan 10:8 So I was left alone and saw this great vision, and no strength was left in me. My radiant appearance was fearfully changed, and I retained no strength.
Dan 10:9 Then I heard the sound of his words, and as I heard the sound of his words, I fell on my face in deep sleep with my face to the ground.
Dan 10:10 And behold, a hand touched me and set me trembling on my hands and knees.
Dan 10:11 And he said to me, “O Daniel, man greatly loved, understand the words that I speak to you, and stand upright, for now I have been sent to you.” And when he had spoken this word to me, I stood up trembling.
Dan 10:12 Then he said to me, “Fear not, Daniel, for from the first day that you set your heart to understand and humbled yourself before your God, your words have been heard, and I have come because of your words.
Dan 10:13 The prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me twenty-one days, but Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, for I was left there with the kings of Persia,
Dan 10:14 and came to make you understand what is to happen to your people in the latter days. For the vision is for days yet to come.” (ESV)

So, Daniel was on the banks of a river on "the twenty-fourth day of the first month," "in the third year of Cyrus," with other men. He has a vision that no one else sees and it causes his appearance to change and he loses strength. Then, the angel touches him, causing him to tremble.

Notice then that the angel says, "for from the first day that you set your heart to understand and humbled yourself before your God, your words have been heard, and I have come because of your words." The angel was sent to Daniel because of his words. That clearly is not going to happen at some point in the future; that would make no sense whatsoever. And the angel apparently had trouble with the prince of Persia and needed Michael's help, to get to Daniel, so he could give him the revelation of the latter days.

In other words, the vision of the angel had already occurred to Daniel by the time he wrote about it. It makes no sense whatsoever for Daniel to say he had a vision of an angel on a specific day in the past, that others with him didn't see, but that the vision was going to occur in the future. The angel is clearly saying in v. 14 that the things he was about to reveal to Daniel in the rest of the vision (chapters 11-12), were what was going to happen in the future.

 

[Randy]

Unity does not mean Trinity.

But it does mean Jesus is a person of the God head. The first and last and again all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell in Him which your statement takes nothing away from and such declaration's of the nature of the word as being God. All those who listen and learn from the Father go to Jesus for life. Its through Him one lives by the will of the Father.

If you can accept the Father is the only true Deity then the one eternal Spirit of God has to be the Fathers own Spirit.

The one in Jesus, the Fathers fullness, the Fathers Spirit, and the Father is Father, Son ,Spirit testifying as ONE.

 

[for_his_glory]

John 10:36
what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’?

​

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​

​

​

​

Psalm 40:6​

New International Version​

6 Sacrifice and offering you did not desire—
but my ears you have opened[1]—
burnt offerings and sin offerings[2] you did not require.

Footnotes​

1. Psalm 40:6 Hebrew; some Septuagint manuscripts but a body you have prepared for me
2. Psalm 40:6 Or purification offerings

In Hebrews 10:5 the verse is also repeated. “Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said: "Sacrifice and offering you did not desire, but a body you prepared for me;”…

Nope nothing there about Jesus being created by God. You really need to read the full context instead of just one verse.

 

[for_his_glory]

John 10:36
what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’?

​

​

​

​

​

​

Psalm 40:6​

New International Version​

6 Sacrifice and offering you did not desire—
but my ears you have opened[1]—
burnt offerings and sin offerings[2] you did not require.

Footnotes​

1. Psalm 40:6 Hebrew; some Septuagint manuscripts but a body you have prepared for me
2. Psalm 40:6 Or purification offerings

In Hebrews 10:5 the verse is also repeated. “Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said: "Sacrifice and offering you did not desire, but a body you prepared for me;”…

You really need to learn about the Deity of Christ. Yes, a body was prepared for Jesus in order to come into the world as a part of uniting with humanity, but yet Jesus was also Alpha and Omega, has no beginning nor an end as He has always been the word come in the flesh of man as the world was created by Him, John 1:1-14.

 

[for_his_glory]

This is what I teach:
Christ speaking to Daniel about Michael.
Daniel 10:5-6
5 I looked up and there before me was a man dressed in linen, with a belt of fine gold from Uphaz around his waist. 6 His body was like topaz, his face like lightning, his eyes like flaming torches, his arms and legs like the gleam of burnished bronze, and his voice like the sound of a multitude.

Speaking of the last days.
Dan 10:14 Now I am come to make thee understand what shall befall thy people in the latter days: for yet the vision is for many days.

Dan12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up,…

So how do we know the person speaking to Daniel is Christ, it is because the book of Revelation tells us so?
Revelation 1:13-15
13 and among the lampstands was someone like a son of man, dressed in a robe reaching down to his feet and with a golden sash around his chest. 14 The hair on his head was white like wool, as white as snow, and his eyes were like blazing fire. His feet were like bronze glowing in a furnace, and his voice was like the sound of rushing waters.

Revelation 2:18
To the Church in Thyatira
“To the messenger of the church in Thyatira write: These are the words of the Son of God, whose eyes are like blazing fire and whose feet are like burnished bronze.



Odd.
Revelation 1:13
13 and among the lampstands was someone like a son of man, dressed in a robe reaching down to his feet and with a golden sash around his chest.

The Greek text says his "breast" were bound. (girded) But the translators gave the interpretation "chest."

Although not impossible, just extremely unlikely. Perhaps someone thought it funny to replace the word "waist" with "breast."

Exactly what the Watch Tower gives you to teach. If you do not teach it this way you will be faced with disfellowship from the Watch Tower and the Kingdom Hall. Is that the reason you press this so much?

Daniel 10 is about Daniel's vision as in the third year of Cyrus, the Persian conqueror of Babylon, Daniel after fasting for three weeks sees a vision of a man clothed in linen and clearly a supernatural being. This is the Archangel Michael sent by God who tells him that he is currently engaged in a battle with the prince of Persia in which Daniel is assisted by Michael.

Michael is not Jesus in a pre-human existence as the JW teach.

Another is that they add the words "of the" in Isaiah 9:6 and we know by reading Rev 22:18-19 what happens to those who add to or take away from the word of God. I'm sorry, but the JW"s are not the ones who Christ is coming back for as God will condemn these false religions and I would hate to see that happen to you. This is why we go the lengths to help you learn what has already been written by the Prophets and Apostles.

 

[for_his_glory]

The proof that God exist is in the fact that spontaneous evolution of life is not possible in this universe. God evolved, then He created. From the Subatomic and the primordial Dark Matter. A type of nothing, because it has no atomic bonds to form anything. God created gravity and gravitons to form the atomic elements of this Universe.

Wow!!! So you really believe God evolved from nothing, that is so far fetched that I can't even believe you said that.

There are many scriptures where Jesus has called Himself Lord, I am, and if you knew me you would know the Father, but I guess that to was left out of the NWT so called Bible written by the Watch Tower society. I know you are not allowed to question the Watch Tower, but seriously how can you believe the false doctrines they teach by everything we have shown you. I fear for your soul sir.

 

[for_his_glory]

My computer is under attack here.

Wonder why

 

[Free]

The proof that God exist is in the fact that spontaneous evolution of life is not possible in this universe. God evolved, then He created.

First, if God evolved, then where did he come from? Second, if you think God evolved, then that is your god alone and is absolutely not the God of the Bible. That is utter blasphemy.