Christian Pacifism, can Christians go to war?

[Mountain Man]

If Christians did not Go to war and defend what God has Given us, we would have lost this great Nation(USA) long ago. Heck if we didn't go to war we Americans would be under a King and Queen, that would not give us the freedom to believe what we wanted. And it was Christian Ideals that founded this Nation.

:amen

Are you talking about the same Christians that stole this land from the Indians? Are you talking about this nation that was founded my masons? Are you talking about this "great" nation that accepts abortion and homosexual behavoir? Are you talking about this nation that goes overseas and meddles in other peoples affairs and refuses to even defend it's own southern border? I could go on but you get the point. My primary citizenship is with the kingdom of God...my citizenship with the USA is secondary. We should obey God rather than man.

Yet you are perfectly content to live here,America is far from perfect and is in a serious state of decline and perhaps one day you will get to live in a nation that is 100 times worse than you can imagine.The statement about the Indians is nonsense,every piece of livable land on earth has been fought over since time began,the only land God ever gave to anyone was Israel to the Jews....all other land has been in constant dispute.The Indians themselves fought over hunting grounds and tribes attempted to dominate one another.

 

[Mountain Man]

Imagine the Parable of the Good Samaritan, with a little twist. Knowing that the central message in that parable is "love your neighbor as yourself", how would Christ have told it if, instead of arriving after the man from Jerusalem had already been stripped, robbed, beaten, and left bloody in the road, the Samaritan had arrived while the attack was taking place?

I guess we can thank God for the pagans since they are the only ones with the guts to do anything and protect us from the Hellish nightmare that life would be if some people had their way.

 

[Mountain Man]

I think this subject shows were we "really" place our faith.

Well Butch your life there in Homer Georgia would be much different if people throughout our history had shared your view,you certainly wouldn't be sitting comfortably at your computer and self righteously questioning the faith of others....did you know that those who share in the spoils of war are just as guilty as those who fought it....you share in those spoils...you are guilty.

 

[P31Woman]

I think this subject shows were we "really" place our faith.

No medications in your home or locks on the doors and windows?

I think you are using your personal conviction to judge others.

Scripture has NO teaching that the Romans Soldiers had to quit his job to trust Christ and be a child of God. ZERO

To apply a standard not clearly stated in scripture to others and then jugde them by that standard is not allowed in by the Master. See Romans 14

 

[P31Woman]

For those who believe it is OK to kill in self defense I have a question. Are you OK with the fact that by killing someone in self defense you have denied that person any future chance of turning to Christ and being saved?

No the victim of the crime has not made that decision the criminal has.

 

[Grappler]

If Christians did not Go to war and defend what God has Given us, we would have lost this great Nation(USA) long ago. Heck if we didn't go to war we Americans would be under a King and Queen, that would not give us the freedom to believe what we wanted. And it was Christian Ideals that founded this Nation.

:amen

Are you talking about the same Christians that stole this land from the Indians? Are you talking about this nation that was founded my masons? Are you talking about this "great" nation that accepts abortion and homosexual behavoir? Are you talking about this nation that goes overseas and meddles in other peoples affairs and refuses to even defend it's own southern border? I could go on but you get the point. My primary citizenship is with the kingdom of God...my citizenship with the USA is secondary. We should obey God rather than man.

Yet you are perfectly content to live here,America is far from perfect and is in a serious state of decline and perhaps one day you will get to live in a nation that is 100 times worse than you can imagine.The statement about the Indians is nonsense,every piece of livable land on earth has been fought over since time began,the only land God ever gave to anyone was Israel to the Jews....all other land has been in constant dispute.The Indians themselves fought over hunting grounds and tribes attempted to dominate one another.

Sure i am...I was born here...God put me here. If God put me somewhere else that is where i would be. There is no 'perhaps'...if God allows me to live long enough to see the continual decay of this nation and the world i am sure i will end up in one those FEMA concentration camps.lol And you know what? That will be okay because Jesus will be with me. Oh so since God didn't give the Indians this land then it was okay to lie and steal and kill to take it from them?? Not very Christ like was it?lol God originally gave the "promised land" to Abraham and his descendants...if you read your New Testament in Galatians chapter 3, you will see that ALL in Christ have inherited the promises that God gave to Abraham. Surely you are not implying that modern day "Israel" is God's chosen people....modern day "Israel" and all Zionists are living a lie.

 

[P31Woman]

I think this subject shows were we "really" place our faith.

Well Butch your life there in Homer Georgia would be much different if people throughout our history had shared your view,you certainly wouldn't be sitting comfortably at your computer and self righteously questioning the faith of others....did you know that those who share in the spoils of war are just as guilty as those who fought it....you share in those spoils...you are guilty.

I do believe this is how the lost look at a Christian who claims they don't want to be in the military and say it's about love.

 

[P31Woman]

My belief is being a peacemaker has to do with helping people come to peace with God not necessarily live in a state of worldly peace. I can be that type of peace maker in the midst of war.

If it is possible on your part, be at peace with all people.(Ro 12:18).

It's not just about people coming to peace with God, that's chief of course, but that must naturally flow from a Christian who is a peacemaker with his fellow man. Blessed are the peacemakers for they shall be called SONS OF GOD. We seek peace and reconciliation with our fellow humanity because God is. He came not to destroy lives, but to save lives.

Only a Chrisitan will be called a "son of God". The lost person who seeks to make peace will never be called a son of God, never. I know understand that fact but need to point that out to put the passage in context.

IMHO, I believe that scripture verse is part of a group dealing with coming to Christ and then the changes that occur in our life once we come to Christ. Only a child of God would desire to help others come to peace with God.

Here we have the greatest and first teaching from our Lord. I believe it deals with coming to Him and the changes that occur in our life once we are His.


3 “Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. (realize the turth of their lost state of being before God)

4 “Blessed are those who mourn, for they will be comforted. (cry out over their sinnful state of being)

5 “Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the earth. (humble themselves before God placing him in control) This is the point as which I believe salvation occurs.

6 “Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they will be filled. (that deep desire to soak up God's truth...you know that longing we have to study scripture to seek God's truth...I see you in that passage)

7 “Blessed are the merciful, for they will receive mercy. (Oh we have that compassion for others and put that in action it's part of our new DNA so to speak)

8 “Blessed are the pure in heart, for they will see God. (Holiness)

9 “Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called children of God. (bring others to peace wtih God)

10 “Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness’ sake, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

11 “Blessed are you when people revile you and persecute you and utter all kinds of evil against you falsely on my account. 12 Rejoice and be glad, for your reward is great in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you. (Only a child of God is willing to be persecuted because they are living the lifestyle of a child of God)

_____

What I posted above if only my sharing. If it confirms one way of life for you that's fine. I am not to judge you for that. I stand on Romans 14.


“In essentials, unity; in non-essentials, liberty; in all things, charity.”

 

[gr8grace]

Heb 11:32-34~~32 And what more shall I say? For time will fail me if I tell of Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, of David and Samuel and the prophets, 33 who by faith conquered kingdoms, performed [acts of] righteousness, obtained promises, shut the mouths of lions, 34 quenched the power of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, from weakness were made strong, became mighty in war, put foreign armies to flight. (hero's of the faith)

The military image of the Lord Jesus Christ:
A. He fought for the Jews of the Exodus generation (EXODUS 14:13,14).
B. He fought for the conquest generation (JOSHUA 10:8-14).
C. He fought for Israel during the Assyrian campaign (ISAIAH 36:1-37:38).
D. He will fight for Israel at Second Advent (ZECHARIAH 14:1-3; REVELATION
19:11-21).

We have divine institutions From God, Nation, Family, wife, freedom. Christians Fight and die for these God given Institutions.

I think the question is in regard to the Christian not the Lord.

So who do you suppose the MEN(real men) were in Hebrews 11:32-34? Were they not Christians?

Luke 14:31~~ war demands planning.

National freedom comes courtesy of the military.

If it wasn't for the Client nation of God, with believers and unbelievers alike ,most of this world would be speaking German.

Christians need to be ready to defend the nation that God has given them and Gods chosen people.

1 Thessalonians 5:3~~While they are saying, "Peace and safety!" then destruction will come upon them suddenly like labor pains upon a woman with child, and they will not escape.

A strong defense~~ Numbers 2

He trained David for battle~~Psalm 18:34

This is just common sense boys. A person breaks into my home and threatens my wife and family, God not only gives the believer the Go ahead to killem ,He gives unbelievers that freedom also.

Men have been so feminized by this world and Christians have been so influenced by "co-exist" that we think we have to tolerate people that threaten our God given right to freedom and privacy. Not me.

If Christians did not Go to war and defend what God has Given us, we would have lost this great Nation(USA) long ago. Heck if we didn't go to war we Americans would be under a King and Queen, that would not give us the freedom to believe what we wanted. And it was Christian Ideals that founded this Nation.

Why, don't you believe that God is capable of protecting a nation? You are right about one thing, this is easy. We can see from Church history that the Church "didn't" teach the use violence period, for the first 300 years. Any attempt the Christian makes to support the use of violence must come from the OT since there is nothing to support this idea in the NT. However, the use of violence in the OT was for Israel. I have addressed this attempted support from the OT in an article here, "Should Christians Use Violence".

A large portion of The Old testament is Gods standard for a Nation. And Gods way of defending His Client Nation....... by His people. God has not changed His policy with His Client nations, DEFEND what He has given to His people.

 

[gr8grace]

Heb 11:32-34~~32 And what more shall I say? For time will fail me if I tell of Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, of David and Samuel and the prophets, 33 who by faith conquered kingdoms, performed [acts of] righteousness, obtained promises, shut the mouths of lions, 34 quenched the power of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, from weakness were made strong, became mighty in war, put foreign armies to flight. (hero's of the faith)

The military image of the Lord Jesus Christ:
A. He fought for the Jews of the Exodus generation (EXODUS 14:13,14).
B. He fought for the conquest generation (JOSHUA 10:8-14).
C. He fought for Israel during the Assyrian campaign (ISAIAH 36:1-37:38).
D. He will fight for Israel at Second Advent (ZECHARIAH 14:1-3; REVELATION
19:11-21).

We have divine institutions From God, Nation, Family, wife, freedom. Christians Fight and die for these God given Institutions.

I think the question is in regard to the Christian not the Lord.

So who do you suppose the MEN(real men) were in Hebrews 11:32-34? Were they not Christians?

Luke 14:31~~ war demands planning.

National freedom comes courtesy of the military.

If it wasn't for the Client nation of God, with believers and unbelievers alike ,most of this world would be speaking German.

Christians need to be ready to defend the nation that God has given them and Gods chosen people.

1 Thessalonians 5:3~~While they are saying, "Peace and safety!" then destruction will come upon them suddenly like labor pains upon a woman with child, and they will not escape.

A strong defense~~ Numbers 2

He trained David for battle~~Psalm 18:34

This is just common sense boys. A person breaks into my home and threatens my wife and family, God not only gives the believer the Go ahead to killem ,He gives unbelievers that freedom also.

Men have been so feminized by this world and Christians have been so influenced by "co-exist" that we think we have to tolerate people that threaten our God given right to freedom and privacy. Not me.

If Christians did not Go to war and defend what God has Given us, we would have lost this great Nation(USA) long ago. Heck if we didn't go to war we Americans would be under a King and Queen, that would not give us the freedom to believe what we wanted. And it was Christian Ideals that founded this Nation.

Why, don't you believe that God is capable of protecting a nation? You are right about one thing, this is easy. We can see from Church history that the Church "didn't" teach the use violence period, for the first 300 years. Any attempt the Christian makes to support the use of violence must come from the OT since there is nothing to support this idea in the NT. However, the use of violence in the OT was for Israel. I have addressed this attempted support from the OT in an article here, "Should Christians Use Violence".

Another thing. God is capable to protect this and other client Nations He has established.

He has put me Here And As I can see, a lot of brothers and sisters here on this forum that love you enough to lay down their life for you in battle when you sit and watch. And He has unbelievers living in this nation that dont even know His Son that will do the same for you. That is How God protects His Nations and people.

 

[reba]

2.5: Respect each others' opinions. Address issues, not persons or personalities. Give other members the respect you would want them to give yourself.


This topic always brings a violent battle how about we try to remember His Word.....

Jas 3:5 Even so the tongue is a little member, and boasteth great things. Behold, how great a matter a little fire kindleth!
Jas 3:6 And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell.
Jas 3:7 For every kind of beasts, and of birds, and of serpents, and of things in the sea, is tamed, and hath been tamed of mankind:
Jas 3:8 But the tongue can no man tame; it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison.

moderator

Not necessarily directed at the last poster

 

[gr8grace]

For those who believe it is OK to kill in self defense I have a question. Are you OK with the fact that by killing someone in self defense you have denied that person any future chance of turning to Christ and being saved?

Who is in control,God or man?

I am 100% OK with killing that man in self defense. Like I denied Him a Chance to turn to Christ? That is complete non-sense! He made a CHOICE to attack. His choice counts for nothing? But defending myself and my choice to defend myself is the only choice that kept Him from turning to Christ?

 

[Doulos Iesou]

Salvation is not by chance. Who is in control some dude with a gun, etc. or God?

This is a dangerous theological position, commonly related to Calvinism. Salvation is of course not by chance, because chance at the end of the day isn't really anything. Salvation is however, THROUGH believing in Jesus who is the saving object of their faith. To kill a person is indeed to deny them as a Christian the opportunity to be saved, it is the value oneself and your own life over their life and salvation.

God is indeed sovereign and rules and reigns over creation, that doesn't mean that every single thing that happens is his will, as it can be easily seen in Scripture that he has afforded a certain degree of autonomy for human beings. They are however subject to God's Justice was he is the true Sovereign one over this creation, God may not intervene in the instance of "some dude with a gun, etc." but he will deal with that evil.

Believing that we're able to use lethal force on an assailant and it's okay to kill him, because he is likely reprobate is indeed an untenable position.

Some folks just use the lives of others for their defense. As in call the cops.

Take it to its ugly end how much harm would one allow to their loved ones?

O gee I see a bad guy are about to mug that old man... so joe Christian drops to his knees starts praying mean while the old man has prayed for help...God sent joe...

Well reba, what would be the Christ-like thing to do? How did Jesus overcome evil? Did he bring a legion to overthrow the worldly and spiritual powers, to be the sword establish his kingdom of peace? No, he overcame evil by taking it's worst on the Cross on behalf of his people.

When the good shepherd laid down his life for his sheep he did not do so through any act of violence committed by him, but rather through subjecting himself to the violence of others in order to spare billions.

So no, if joe Christian were truly to follow Jesus example he would intervene in the situation of the old man getting mugged. However, not with violence and attempting to combat their evil with evil. But rather, he would come up and say, "please, spare this man this beating and taking of his money, rather, take my money and do your worst to me, but please.. spare this man."

What a testimony of the gospel would that be? To say, spare this man and leave him his things, rather take me and what I have.

If we are to love as Jesus loved, wouldn't that perhaps demand such a radical response of love not only to the old man being attacked, but also to afford mercy to be shown to the assailants?

 

[reba]

I have been in the situation with the bad guys kicking in the door.

We are allowed to have our differing views .

 

[P31Woman]

I have been in the situation with the bad guys kicking in the door.

We are allowed to have our differing views .

And the bad guys put a gun to my head. My husband loved me enough to lay down his life for me.

I guess none of us were trying to spirituralize the situation. We were just trying to survive an attack from some very evil dudes who where high on drugs and already committed a string of crimes before they decided to attack us.

 

[reba]

I am so sorry P31...

 

[P31Woman]

I am so sorry P31...

It turned out good. My husband placed himself between me and the gun/gunmen. They did not shoot him/us. It helped to me know what real sacrifical loved looked like. We had only been married a few months and from that point on in our marriage I knew without a doubt this man loved me more than life itself. I wanted to be the same type of spouse to him.

 

[reba]

WHEW ! Good..... same for us I was thankful killing one of them did not happen... Although they went on to rush another home... I no longer remember if they killed both the old man and his wife it, was one of them....

 

[P31Woman]

Doulos Iesou

Believing that we're able to use lethal force on an assailant and it's okay
to kill him, because he is likely reprobate is indeed an untenable position.

I was thinking about the OT law and how it allowed for self defense. Then I was thinking about what Jesus said was the summary of the law.

How does self defense (OT law) fit in with loving others as yourself? We know it must because that's what Jesus said.

 

[P31Woman]

WHEW ! Good..... same for us I was thankful killing one of them did not happen... Although they went on to rush another home... I no longer remember if they killed both the old man and his wife it, was one of them....

God was with you as well. I believe you and I are very practical type of people who believe there is a time for everything. When I look at the OT laws, the principles of scripture and the book of Proverbs I see very practical thing we are to do.

(Some people think saving and buying insurance is showing a lack of faith. I say it's biblical prudence)