Christian Pacifism, can Christians go to war?

[gr8grace]

So who do you suppose the MEN(real men) were in Hebrews 11:32-34? Were they not Christians?

Luke 14:31~~ war demands planning.

National freedom comes courtesy of the military.

If it wasn't for the Client nation of God, with believers and unbelievers alike ,most of this world would be speaking German.

Christians need to be ready to defend the nation that God has given them and Gods chosen people.

1 Thessalonians 5:3~~While they are saying, "Peace and safety!" then destruction will come upon them suddenly like labor pains upon a woman with child, and they will not escape.

A strong defense~~ Numbers 2

He trained David for battle~~Psalm 18:34

This is just common sense boys. A person breaks into my home and threatens my wife and family, God not only gives the believer the Go ahead to killem ,He gives unbelievers that freedom also.

Men have been so feminized by this world and Christians have been so influenced by "co-exist" that we think we have to tolerate people that threaten our God given right to freedom and privacy. Not me.

If Christians did not Go to war and defend what God has Given us, we would have lost this great Nation(USA) long ago. Heck if we didn't go to war we Americans would be under a King and Queen, that would not give us the freedom to believe what we wanted. And it was Christian Ideals that founded this Nation.

Why, don't you believe that God is capable of protecting a nation? You are right about one thing, this is easy. We can see from Church history that the Church "didn't" teach the use violence period, for the first 300 years. Any attempt the Christian makes to support the use of violence must come from the OT since there is nothing to support this idea in the NT. However, the use of violence in the OT was for Israel. I have addressed this attempted support from the OT in an article here, "Should Christians Use Violence".

Another thing. God is capable to protect this and other client Nations He has established.

He has put me Here And As I can see, a lot of brothers and sisters here on this forum that love you enough to lay down their life for you in battle when you sit and watch. And He has unbelievers living in this nation that dont even know His Son that will do the same for you. That is How God protects His Nations and people.

There's no need for an appeal to disgust. I don't ask anyone to lay down their life for me simply because I don't believe it is what the Lord has commanded. If I get killed, I get killed, it's no big deal if God is able to raise the dead. I believe He is.

I know this is a touchy subject. And I am talking worst case scenarios in this life,as I believe most others that disagree with you are also.

The verses used in the OP are for normal, everyday life for the Christians. How to act and behave in our Jobs, family,entertainment,social life. The slap on the face, in the NT, was not an assailant. The "slap" was 'rhapizo' And it was used in this verse for someone who would not bow down to the King when He entered the City, the Kings body guards would 'rhapizo' the person until they got down on their knees or until the person became angry and attacked and the King would have them killed. Matt 5:39 is not speaking Pacifism.

I think God gave all of us some sense and His Spirit for believers, to discern that we are not to stand around and let people beat us up and kill us.

I please ask that you send me EVERYTHING you own, please.

Matt 5:42~~2"Give to him who asks of you, and do not turn away from him who wants to borrow from you.

 

[P31Woman]

and you said in an earlier post



and





and

Why, don't you believe that God is capable of protecting a nation?

If you faith is so much greater than the rest of us, put it to
work/action.


Why waste your superior faith by living in a country with a strong military and police force where your rights as a Christian is protected?

Go to a country war torn where christians are seen as the enemy to be destroyed. That's the only way I know of to test that superior faith.

(BTW, the people I know who have done that don't have a problem with guns or the military. I know my family member was in the service and owns many guns. They proved to me their superior faith by their actions)

This is a fallacious argument. I didn't say my faith was greater than anyone else's. Faith by definition is trust. The issue is what the Scriptures teach not what I think or you think or what anyone thinks. The same argument could be made for adultery, I know good people who have had affairs. There are military people who have had affairs and yet laid down their lives for others, does that make the affair OK? That fact that the arguments being made are not from the words of Christ is telling.

My post was not an agrument. It was a sincere request.

 

[gr8grace]

I think this subject shows were we "really" place our faith.

I have to agree with you there Butch. It cracks me up at all these Christians who are ready to march out and kill for a Godless nation as this one.lol

You are a Christian right? You live in this nation right? Godless nation? I fight for you, you are why this nation is not Godless.

 

[P31Woman]

I think this subject shows were we "really" place our faith.

I have to agree with you there Butch. It cracks me up at all these Christians who are ready to march out and kill for a Godless nation as this one.lol

You are a Christian right? You live in this nation right? Godless nation? I fight for you, you are why this nation is not Godless.

Thank you for your sacrifice. I appreciate your selflessness.

 

[reba]

So your would offer your wife your child to rapist? to the murder? You do realize this is what your are saying.. The creeps of this world should have not been stopped by physical force? The cops in Boston were wrong to go after the bomber they way they did?


What world do you live in? There is a difference between martyred and marterdumb .


Some folks are coward enough to live at the expense of others and take pride in doing so.

 

[Drew]

The slap on the face, in the NT, was not an assailant. The "slap" was 'rhapizo' And it was used in this verse for someone who would not bow down to the King when He entered the City, the Kings body guards would 'rhapizo' the person until they got down on their knees or until the person became angry and attacked and the King would have them killed. Matt 5:39 is not speaking Pacifism.

Even if I agree with you - and I believe I do - there are enough other texts that, in my view, establish that the Christian is to eschew force.

 

[Drew]

So your would offer your wife your child to rapist? to the murder? You do realize this is what your are saying.. The creeps of this world should have not been stopped by physical force? The cops in Boston were wrong to go after the bomber they way they did?

This is not what we are saying!

To say that one rejects the use of "force" does not mean we are saying "do nothing". There are many things that can be done to deal with the problems in our world, other than taking up weapons. Yes, this may mean there is a price to pay. Does your Bible tell you to expect anything different?

One of them is, yes, to make it illegal for people to have weapons!

But, apparently, you don't want to do that - you want the right to be armed.

 

[Atonement]

Introduction:



Then Jesus said to him, “Put your sword back into its place. For all who take the sword will perish by the sword. Do you think that I cannot appeal to my Father, and he will at once send me more than twelve legions of angels? Matthew 26:52-53(ESV)

Makes me wonder why Peter had a sword in the first place

 

[Drew]

Some folks are coward enough to live at the expense of others and take pride in doing so.

An outrageous distortion. You are a moderator, right?

 

[reba]

For those who believe only "faith healing" the no doctor type I ask if there are any folks in the hospitals in their areas?
then read the excuses

For you who believe in pacifism.. Chicago has a real crime problem about 500 dead last year... Take your message to the streets there ... I will be waiting your report...

 

[reba]

Some folks are coward enough to live at the expense of others and take pride in doing so.

An outrageous distortion. You are a moderator, right?

Drew it is not a distortion it is how many of these posts read, to me. Maybe what is in your head/heart is not getting to the page?

 

[reba]

So your would offer your wife your child to rapist? to the murder? You do realize this is what your are saying.. The creeps of this world should have not been stopped by physical force? The cops in Boston were wrong to go after the bomber they way they did?

This is not what we are saying!

To say that one rejects the use of "force" does not mean we are saying "do nothing". There are many things that can be done to deal with the problems in our world, other than taking up weapons. Yes, this may mean there is a price to pay. Does your Bible tell you to expect anything different?

One of them is, yes, to make it illegal for people to have weapons!

But, apparently, you don't want to do that - you want the right to be armed.

So if I am armed with a sword it is Biblical?

Luk_22:36 Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

 

[Drew]

Makes me wonder why Peter had a sword in the first place

A fair question. But I will wager that Jesus never approved of Peter having a sword, except in the special circumstance, recorded in Luke 22, where Jesus instructs His followers to arm themselves so that they will appear to be transgressors, thereby facilitating Jesus' wish to go to the Cross at the time of His choice (Passover).

 

[gr8grace]

I'm not sure what you point is here. The question is should the Christian use violence. It's been my experience that Christians don't like this topic. This topic requires that one truly trust God. Abraham was not only faced with losing his son but was the very one who would have done it. Yet, he trusted God more and was willing to go ahead and God honored that trust.

As I have pointed out in another thread, Jesus' teaching in John 18 is sufficient to make the case that the Christian is to reject the use of the tools of war. Jesus tells Pilate that His (Jesus') followers are not using force to rescue Him because they are citizens of a kingdom that operates on different principles.

As clear an implication as could be that we, as kingdom citizens, are to do likewise - reject the use of the instruments of force.

John 18:36 is a good verse to support violence to keep you alive. I know that you are a part of His Kingdom and If someone Attacked you I would 'fight violently' {agonizomai} for you.

Jesus answered, "My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, then My servants would be fighting( 'fight violently' {agonizomai}.....

You are not of this world and you are a part of His kingdom.

 

[Drew]

So if I am armed with a sword it is Biblical? Luk_22:36 Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him takeit,and likewisehisscrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

I have posted this many times, and have yet to see a valid counter-argument:

The following text, from Luke 22, is often used to support the right to bear arms:

And He said to them, "But now, whoever has a money belt is to take it along, likewise also a bag, and whoever has no sword is to sell his coat and buy one.
37"For I tell you that this which is written must be fulfilled in Me, 'AND HE WAS NUMBERED WITH TRANSGRESSORS'; for that which refers to Me has its fulfillment." 38They said, "Lord, look, here are two swords." And He said to them, "It is enough."

Obviously a “superficial†reading suggests that Jesus is advocating the “right†to carry a weapon. However, the fact that such a reading is deeply at odds with other things Jesus teaches should be a tip-off that things are not as they appear. And indeed, such is the case here. When this text is understood in broader context, we realize that Jesus is not making any kind of a case for the right to bear arms (swords or otherwise).

In order to arrive at the correct interpretation, we really need to step back and ask ourselves what Jesus’ larger purpose was in this dialogue. Note the connective “for†at the beginning of verse 37. It suggests that the material which follows is an explanation or amplification on the point just made – that the followers of Jesus are to sell their coats and buy a sword. So what is Jesus’ larger purpose?

It is that He been seen as a transgressor. Jesus is intentionally orchestrating things so that the Jewish authorities will have plausible grounds for arresting Him. Of course, appearing as part of an armed band would be precisely the ideal scenario to ensure Jesus’ arrest. Remember the “for†at the beginning of verse 37. If we are to be careful students of what Jesus is saying, we need to take seriously what Jesus says in verses 37 and 38 as qualifying and explaining his statement about buying a sword. We cannot simply gloss the text and conclude “Look, Jesus is making some kind of general statement about the right to self-defence with weaponsâ€.

In fact, this very specific focus on the intent to be seen as a transgressor is powerfully sustained by Jesus’ statement that there is prophecy that He (Jesus) must be seen as a transgressor.

Remember the incident in the temple with Jesus overthrowing the tables of the moneychangers. This is not, as many people think, merely a repudiation of the sin of materialism. It is also a shrewd provocation on the part of Jesus. By creating a ruckus in the temple, He is forcing the hand of the Jewish leaders – they cannot allow such behaviour, Jesus must be arrested soon.

This is why, in the next verse, when the disciples say they have two swords, Jesus says “It is enough.†Obviously, if Jesus ever intended for the disciples to use the swords, two swords would not be nearly enough in any kind of armed action. But it’s enough to fulfill the prophecy by making Jesus appear to be participating in a violent revolutionary movement of some kind.

Unlike the “Jesus is supporting the right to bear arms†interpretation, note how the above interpretation makes sense of the entire account. If Jesus was really making some general statement about a “right to bear armsâ€, how exactly does that contribute to His being numbered with transgressors? And how does that make sense of the limit of two swords? Such a “right to bear arms†interpretation makes sense of neither. So it is almost certainly an incorrect interpretation of Jesus’ statement about buying a couple of swords.

 

[reba]

We all read the Scripture the way we choose... We see what we want .. As He said seek and you will find.

 

[reba]

I know Drew you and I have been here before.... We will not change either mind and we each need to do what we believe to be of God.

 

[Drew]

John 18:36 is a good verse to support violence to keep you alive. I know that you are a part of His Kingdom and If someone Attacked you I would 'fight violently' {agonizomai} for you. Jesus answered, "My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, then My servants would be fighting( 'fight violently' {agonizomai}..... You are not of this world and you are a part of His kingdom.

I disagree and the reasons follow:

Pilate then went back inside the palace, summoned Jesus and asked him, "Are you the king of the Jews?" 34"Is that your own idea," Jesus asked, "or did others talk to you about me?" 35"Am I a Jew?" Pilate replied. "It was your people and your chief priests who handed you over to me. What is it you have done?" 36Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jews. But now my kingdom is from another place."

In verse 36, Jesus seems to be saying "My kingdom has nothing to do with earthly kingdoms, so there is no 'political' dimension to my kingdom".

As it turns out, there is a huge translation issue here. Here is the rendering of verse 36 as per the NET Bible:

Jesus replied, “My kingdom is not from this world. If my kingdom were from this world, my servants would be fighting to keep me from being 1 handed over 2 to the Jewish authorities. 3 But as it is, 4 my kingdom is not from here.

The NET version is, my sources indicate, true to the original Greek. The greek word that is rendered “from†(above in the bolded and underlined cases) has the following definition:

“a primary preposition denoting origin (the point whence action or motion proceeds), from, out (of place, time, or cause; literal or figurative; direct or remote)[FONT=&quot]â€

When the word is used properly, we see that the “not of this world†reading is misleading. The intended meaning is that the Kingdom that has been brought to earth is from Heaven - that is, Heaven is the point of origin for the Kingdom that has been initiated.

Jesus is a King. Jesus' kingdom, while not from this world, is rather clearly for this world.

And for this reason, we are being told to reject the use of force as citizens of Jesus Kingship over this very world.
[/FONT]

 

[P31Woman]

Nehemiah a man of great faith and giving God credit had his men doing very practical things to protect themselves from danger. I think we need to realize that we can be "tempting God" to act on on our behalf by not being purdent in our ways.

15 When our enemies heard that their plot was known to us, and that God had frustrated it, we all returned to the wall, each to his work. 16 From that day on, half of my servants worked on construction, and half held the spears, shields, bows, and body-armor; and the leaders posted themselves behind the whole house of Judah, 17 who were building the wall. The burden bearers carried their loads in such a way that each labored on the work with one hand and with the other held a weapon. 18 And each of the builders had his sword strapped at his side while he built. The man who sounded the trumpet was beside me. 19 And I said to the nobles, the officials, and the rest of the people, “The work is great and widely spread out, and we are separated far from one another on the wall. 20 Rally to us wherever you hear the sound of the trumpet. Our God will fight for us.â€

21So we labored at the work, and half of them held the spears from break of dawn until the stars came out. 22 I also said to the people at that time, “Let every man and his servant pass the night inside Jerusalem, so that they may be a guard for us by night and may labor by day.†23 So neither I nor my brothers nor my servants nor the men of the guard who followed me ever took off our clothes; each kept his weapon in his right hand.

 

[Drew]

For you who believe in pacifism.. Chicago has a real crime problem about 500 dead last year... Take your message to the streets there ... I will be waiting your report...

No one said that obedience is easy, or without danger.

Yes, laying down the weapons probably puts you at risk. But that is what Jesus asks us to do.