Christian Pacifism, can Christians go to war?

[P31Woman]

Exodus 22:2 "If the thief is found breaking in, and he is struck so that he dies, there shall be no guilt for his bloodshed.

Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

 

[Butch5]

For those who believe it is OK to kill in self defense I have a question. Are you OK with the fact that by killing someone in self defense you have denied that person any future chance of turning to Christ and being saved?

Who is in control,God or man?

I am 100% OK with killing that man in self defense. Like I denied Him a Chance to turn to Christ? That is complete non-sense! He made a CHOICE to attack. His choice counts for nothing? But defending myself and my choice to defend myself is the only choice that kept Him from turning to Christ?

No one said, your choice was the only one. However, your choice would end the process for him, at least a far as we know. God is capable of saving whoever He chooses to save. But, as far as we know the option to be saved ends at death. If you are a Christian you know where you are going to be, would you deny that to someone else for the mere sake of saving a few years of this life in sin?

Suppose that Jesus did teach the Christians aren't to kill at all. Isn't it a pretty big risk you would be taking in defying that command for a few years of life in this sinful time?

 

[P31Woman]

For those who believe it is OK to kill in self defense I have a question. Are you OK with the fact that by killing someone in self defense you have denied that person any future chance of turning to Christ and being saved?

Who is in control,God or man?

I am 100% OK with killing that man in self defense. Like I denied Him a Chance to turn to Christ? That is complete non-sense! He made a CHOICE to attack. His choice counts for nothing? But defending myself and my choice to defend myself is the only choice that kept Him from turning to Christ?

No one said, your choice was the only one. However, your choice would end the process for him, at least a far as we know. God is capable of saving whoever He chooses to save. But, as far as we know the option to be saved ends at death. If you are a Christian you know where you are going to be, would you deny that to someone else for the mere sake of saving a few years of this life in sin?

Suppose that Jesus did teach the Christians aren't to kill at all. Isn't it a pretty big risk you would be taking in defying that command for a few years of life in this sinful time?

Do you have children?

Suppose? Suppose? Suppose Jesus did teach such and such......?

 

[jasoncran]

what jesus said and did in no wise contradict the laws given by god to moses. moses taught that we are to love they enemy.

 

[Butch5]

For those who believe it is OK to kill in self defense I have a question. Are you OK with the fact that by killing someone in self defense you have denied that person any future chance of turning to Christ and being saved?

Who is in control,God or man?

I am 100% OK with killing that man in self defense. Like I denied Him a Chance to turn to Christ? That is complete non-sense! He made a CHOICE to attack. His choice counts for nothing? But defending myself and my choice to defend myself is the only choice that kept Him from turning to Christ?

No one said, your choice was the only one. However, your choice would end the process for him, at least a far as we know. God is capable of saving whoever He chooses to save. But, as far as we know the option to be saved ends at death. If you are a Christian you know where you are going to be, would you deny that to someone else for the mere sake of saving a few years of this life in sin?

Suppose that Jesus did teach the Christians aren't to kill at all. Isn't it a pretty big risk you would be taking in defying that command for a few years of life in this sinful time?

Do you have children?

Suppose? Suppose? Suppose Jesus did teach such and such......?

I do, I've heard the argument before.

 

[Sinthesis]

Part of loving others as oneself is being willing to frustrate the evil intentions of the misled. This may involve violence, but being forced into violence as a last resort is not the same as living by violence. To live by violence (or the sword) means that the way one provides for their needs is through violence. It does not apply to those lawfully endowed with authority and arms that they might stand between the violent and the peaceful to keep the peace. They are not living off the spoils of violence.

 

[Butch5]

So who do you suppose the MEN(real men) were in Hebrews 11:32-34? Were they not Christians?

Luke 14:31~~ war demands planning.

National freedom comes courtesy of the military.

If it wasn't for the Client nation of God, with believers and unbelievers alike ,most of this world would be speaking German.

Christians need to be ready to defend the nation that God has given them and Gods chosen people.

1 Thessalonians 5:3~~While they are saying, "Peace and safety!" then destruction will come upon them suddenly like labor pains upon a woman with child, and they will not escape.

A strong defense~~ Numbers 2

He trained David for battle~~Psalm 18:34

This is just common sense boys. A person breaks into my home and threatens my wife and family, God not only gives the believer the Go ahead to killem ,He gives unbelievers that freedom also.

Men have been so feminized by this world and Christians have been so influenced by "co-exist" that we think we have to tolerate people that threaten our God given right to freedom and privacy. Not me.

If Christians did not Go to war and defend what God has Given us, we would have lost this great Nation(USA) long ago. Heck if we didn't go to war we Americans would be under a King and Queen, that would not give us the freedom to believe what we wanted. And it was Christian Ideals that founded this Nation.

Why, don't you believe that God is capable of protecting a nation? You are right about one thing, this is easy. We can see from Church history that the Church "didn't" teach the use violence period, for the first 300 years. Any attempt the Christian makes to support the use of violence must come from the OT since there is nothing to support this idea in the NT. However, the use of violence in the OT was for Israel. I have addressed this attempted support from the OT in an article here, "Should Christians Use Violence".

Another thing. God is capable to protect this and other client Nations He has established.

He has put me Here And As I can see, a lot of brothers and sisters here on this forum that love you enough to lay down their life for you in battle when you sit and watch. And He has unbelievers living in this nation that dont even know His Son that will do the same for you. That is How God protects His Nations and people.

There's no need for an appeal to disgust. I don't ask anyone to lay down their life for me simply because I don't believe it is what the Lord has commanded. If I get killed, I get killed, it's no big deal if God is able to raise the dead. I believe He is.

 

[P31Woman]

Hey Butch,

With your amazingly strong faith I would like to encourage you to put it to work. There are some countries that kill Chrisitans. We badly need Christians willing to go to those countries and sacrifice themselves so the gospel message can be heard. In some countries when a person is converted they are asked to make a list of 10 people they believe less likely to report them to authorities to be put to death. They are then told to witness to those 10 people as quickly as possible so the message of the cross can spread.

I know 2 women who did this. When they returned and told me their stories I had a change of heart about spiritural gifts being for today. (tongues and healing)

They went back and I have never heard from them again.

 

[Butch5]

I think this subject shows were we "really" place our faith.

No medications in your home or locks on the doors and windows?

I think you are using your personal conviction to judge others.

Scripture has NO teaching that the Romans Soldiers had to quit his job to trust Christ and be a child of God. ZERO

To apply a standard not clearly stated in scripture to others and then jugde them by that standard is not allowed in by the Master. See Romans 14

I didn't judge anyone. A study of 1st and 2nd century Christianity will show what Jesus and the apostles taught on this subject.

 

[Butch5]

I think this subject shows were we "really" place our faith.

Well Butch your life there in Homer Georgia would be much different if people throughout our history had shared your view,you certainly wouldn't be sitting comfortably at your computer and self righteously questioning the faith of others....did you know that those who share in the spoils of war are just as guilty as those who fought it....you share in those spoils...you are guilty.

I didn't judge anyone and I'm not guilty. The bottom line is it's a matter of faith. Many Christians will say I fully trust in God for my eternal salvation. To me it seems easy to trust God with something we cannot do ourselves yet when it comes to physical life it seems some are more interested in taking things into their own hands as opposed to trusting God. What if Jesus had decided to defend Himself and not let them kill Him?

 

[P31Woman]

I think this subject shows were we "really" place our faith.

No medications in your home or locks on the doors and windows?

I think you are using your personal conviction to judge others.

Scripture has NO teaching that the Romans Soldiers had to quit his job to trust Christ and be a child of God. ZERO

To apply a standard not clearly stated in scripture to others and then jugde them by that standard is not allowed in by the Master. See Romans 14

I didn't judge anyone. A study of 1st and 2nd century Christianity will show what Jesus and the apostles taught on this subject.

See my post 108 above. Here I did a copy and paste for you

Hey @Butch

With your amazingly strong faith I would like to encourage you to put it to work. There are some countries that kill Chrisitans. We badly need Christians willing to go to those countries and sacrifice themselves so the gospel message can be heard. In some countries when a person is converted they are asked to make a list of 10 people they believe less likely to report them to authorities to be put to death. They are then told to witness to those 10 people as quickly as possible so the message of the cross can spread.

I know 2 women who did this. When they returned and told me their stories I had a change of heart about spiritural gifts being for today. (tongues and healing)

They went back and I have never heard from them again.

Edit added:

I had a family member who was able to smuggle some bibles into North Korea and witness to soldiers who were over him and suppose to keep him in line.

 

[Butch5]

The individual has denied himself that chance by attempting murder.

Who said he was attempting murder?

God is in control and apparently uses unbelievers to do the dirty work so people like you can live in safety and security while condemning those who secured it for you,my question is why folks like you seldom if ever live in places where your pacifism will actually cost you anything....why do you think that is ?

I had no option as to where I was born. There's no need for an appeal to disgust. This argument comes up regularly, I suspect it's due to a lack of Biblical support for the violence position

 

[Butch5]

For those who believe it is OK to kill in self defense I have a question. Are you OK with the fact that by killing someone in self defense you have denied that person any future chance of turning to Christ and being saved?

Salvation is not by chance. Who is in control some dude with a gun, etc. or God?

Some folks just use the lives of others for their defense. As in call the cops.

Take it to its ugly end how much harm would one allow to their loved ones?

O gee I see a bad guy are about to mug that old man... so joe Christian drops to his knees starts praying mean while the old man has prayed for help...God sent joe...

Are you suggesting that God tells Christians to break Christ's commands? After all, Jesus said, the words He spoke were the Father's.

Besides, why would God need to send anyone, surely He can handle it. After all He fought whole armies for Israel.

 

[Butch5]

I think this subject shows were we "really" place our faith.

No medications in your home or locks on the doors and windows?

I think you are using your personal conviction to judge others.

Scripture has NO teaching that the Romans Soldiers had to quit his job to trust Christ and be a child of God. ZERO

To apply a standard not clearly stated in scripture to others and then jugde them by that standard is not allowed in by the Master. See Romans 14

I didn't judge anyone. A study of 1st and 2nd century Christianity will show what Jesus and the apostles taught on this subject.

See my post 108 above. Here I did a copy and paste for you

Hey @Butch

With your amazingly strong faith I would like to encourage you to put it to work. There are some countries that kill Chrisitans. We badly need Christians willing to go to those countries and sacrifice themselves so the gospel message can be heard. In some countries when a person is converted they are asked to make a list of 10 people they believe less likely to report them to authorities to be put to death. They are then told to witness to those 10 people as quickly as possible so the message of the cross can spread.

I know 2 women who did this. When they returned and told me their stories I had a change of heart about spiritural gifts being for today. (tongues and healing)

They went back and I have never heard from them again.

Edit added:

I had a family member who was able to smuggle some bibles into North Korea and witness to soldiers who were over him and suppose to keep him in line.

I'm not sure what you point is here. The question is should the Christian use violence. It's been my experience that Christians don't like this topic. This topic requires that one truly trust God. Abraham was not only faced with losing his son but was the very one who would have done it. Yet, he trusted God more and was willing to go ahead and God honored that trust.

 

[P31Woman]

I didn't judge anyone. A study of 1st and 2nd century Christianity will show what Jesus and the apostles taught on this subject.

See my post 108 above. Here I did a copy and paste for you

Hey @Butch

With your amazingly strong faith I would like to encourage you to put it to work. There are some countries that kill Chrisitans. We badly need Christians willing to go to those countries and sacrifice themselves so the gospel message can be heard. In some countries when a person is converted they are asked to make a list of 10 people they believe less likely to report them to authorities to be put to death. They are then told to witness to those 10 people as quickly as possible so the message of the cross can spread.

I know 2 women who did this. When they returned and told me their stories I had a change of heart about spiritural gifts being for today. (tongues and healing)

They went back and I have never heard from them again.

Edit added:

I had a family member who was able to smuggle some bibles into North Korea and witness to soldiers who were over him and suppose to keep him in line.

I'm not sure what you point is here. The question is should the Christian use violence. It's been my experience that Christians don't like this topic. This topic requires that one truly trust God. Abraham was not only faced with losing his son but was the very one who would have done it. Yet, he trusted God more and was willing to go ahead and God honored that trust.

and you said in an earlier post

The bottom line is it's a matter of faith. Many Christians will say I fully trust in God for my eternal salvation. To me it seems easy to trust God with something we cannot do ourselves yet when it comes to physical life it seems some are more interested in taking things into their own hands as opposed to trusting God.

and

I don't ask anyone to lay down their life for me simply because I don't
believe it is what the Lord has commanded. If I get killed, I get killed, it's
no big deal if God is able to raise the dead. I believe He is.

and

Why, don't you believe that God is capable of protecting a nation?

If you faith is so much greater than the rest of us, put it to
work/action.


Why waste your superior faith by living in a country with a strong military and police force where your rights as a Christian is protected?

Go to a country war torn where christians are seen as the enemy to be destroyed. That's the only way I know of to test that superior faith.

(BTW, the people I know who have done that don't have a problem with guns or the military. I know my family member was in the service and owns many guns. They proved to me their superior faith by their actions)

 

[Grappler]

I think this subject shows were we "really" place our faith.

I have to agree with you there Butch. It cracks me up at all these Christians who are ready to march out and kill for a Godless nation as this one.lol

 

[Butch5]

and you said in an earlier post

The bottom line is it's a matter of faith. Many Christians will say I fully trust in God for my eternal salvation. To me it seems easy to trust God with something we cannot do ourselves yet when it comes to physical life it seems some are more interested in taking things into their own hands as opposed to trusting God.

and

I don't ask anyone to lay down their life for me simply because I don't
believe it is what the Lord has commanded. If I get killed, I get killed, it's
no big deal if God is able to raise the dead. I believe He is.

and

Why, don't you believe that God is capable of protecting a nation?

If you faith is so much greater than the rest of us, put it to
work/action.


Why waste your superior faith by living in a country with a strong military and police force where your rights as a Christian is protected?

Go to a country war torn where christians are seen as the enemy to be destroyed. That's the only way I know of to test that superior faith.

(BTW, the people I know who have done that don't have a problem with guns or the military. I know my family member was in the service and owns many guns. They proved to me their superior faith by their actions)

This is a fallacious argument. I didn't say my faith was greater than anyone else's. Faith by definition is trust. The issue is what the Scriptures teach not what I think or you think or what anyone thinks. The same argument could be made for adultery, I know good people who have had affairs. There are military people who have had affairs and yet laid down their lives for others, does that make the affair OK? That fact that the arguments being made are not from the words of Christ is telling.

 

[Butch5]

I think this subject shows were we "really" place our faith.

I have to agree with you there Butch. It cracks me up at all these Christians who are ready to march out and kill for a Godless nation as this one.lol

It is a Godless nation for sure.

 

[Drew]

I'm not sure what you point is here. The question is should the Christian use violence. It's been my experience that Christians don't like this topic. This topic requires that one truly trust God. Abraham was not only faced with losing his son but was the very one who would have done it. Yet, he trusted God more and was willing to go ahead and God honored that trust.

As I have pointed out in another thread, Jesus' teaching in John 18 is sufficient to make the case that the Christian is to reject the use of the tools of war. Jesus tells Pilate that His (Jesus') followers are not using force to rescue Him because they are citizens of a kingdom that operates on different principles.

As clear an implication as could be that we, as kingdom citizens, are to do likewise - reject the use of the instruments of force.

 

[Drew]

There's no need for an appeal to disgust. I don't ask anyone to lay down their life for me simply because I don't believe it is what the Lord has commanded. If I get killed, I get killed, it's no big deal if God is able to raise the dead. I believe He is.

Good point. This argument that we who obey Jesus' instruction to reject the use of force are benefiting from the sacrifices of soldiers while we sit comfortably at home is deeply flawed. As you say, I did not ask anybody to fight on my behalf.