Christian Pacifism, can Christians go to war?

[jasoncran]

it is revalant. what did rome due to thiefs? crucify them if they weren't roman citizenry

 

[reba]

Drew it is not a distortion it is how many of these posts read, to me. Maybe what is in your head/heart is not getting to the page?

Not good enough reba. You do not get to misrepresent me, and insultingly to boot, and then blame me for lack of clarity. My posts have been quite clear, and I suggest you know this.

I never posted anything that would justify this outrageous implication that I, and others like me, are "cowards" who sit back and let others do the dirty work.

I don't play word games Drew my posts are simple...I understand you see my posts the way you do please do the same for me and understand me.

 

[reba]

I see everyone has been busy while I was away.

As for the use of weapons to fight the enemy:

The Reverend David Wilkerson went to the pits of New York City armed with his Bible and proved beyond a shadow of doubt that the Cross is stronger than the switchblade.

True story, true faith and trust in Jesus.

And there are no more bad guys in New York.!

Cross and the Switchblade one of the best books I have ever read.

 

[Mountain Man]

So your would offer your wife your child to rapist? to the murder? You do realize this is what your are saying.. The creeps of this world should have not been stopped by physical force? The cops in Boston were wrong to go after the bomber they way they did?

This is not what we are saying!

To say that one rejects the use of "force" does not mean we are saying "do nothing". There are many things that can be done to deal with the problems in our world, other than taking up weapons. Yes, this may mean there is a price to pay. Does your Bible tell you to expect anything different?

One of them is, yes, to make it illegal for people to have weapons!

But, apparently, you don't want to do that - you want the right to be armed.

This is where your hypocrisy is most evident,you say reject the world's way of force but let's use the world's way of politics to force people to do what you would have them to do,both Christians and non Christians alike...ever heard of criminals ? hint,criminlas don't obey laws...once again thank God for the pagans since they are what keeps us from living in the Hellish nightmare you would have us live in.

 

[jasoncran]

DREW, laws don't make men moral nor do the right thing. I used to break a lot of laws.. I stole and I lied and I took money from the government. all illegal only the Holy Ghost really changed my heart on that.

 

[gr8grace]

I think this subject shows were we "really" place our faith.

I have to agree with you there Butch. It cracks me up at all these Christians who are ready to march out and kill for a Godless nation as this one.lol

You are a Christian right? You live in this nation right? Godless nation? I fight for you, you are why this nation is not Godless.

Yes. Yes. Yes. How are you fighting for me?? Let me be a little more specific. The leadership of this nation is Godless....capital G because they do have a god. Many people living in this country qualify as Godless as well. Wouldn't you agree? You must be in the military? How do you like this "great" nations military accepting the Godless lifestyle of homosexuality? How do you expect God to bless your military when it's leaders are evil?

I come at it from a different perspective than you. God Blesses this nation because He has spiritually mature believers residing here. He blesses Washington DC because He has a spiritually mature believer that cleans their toilets. He Blesses the Military because He has spiritually mature believers in that institution.

If there were 300,000 homosexuals in the military and one spiritually mature believer, God would bless the Military.

It is with everything, no matter How corrupt the institution is .....As goes the believer,as goes the institution.

If you do not realize that the military is fighting for you,I do not know what to tell you.

I would rather be in a foxhole with a drunk,smoking,high homosexual that would die for His God given country then a christian who was whining about violence and how he hates his country.

 

[Mountain Man]

Like I've said.....thank God for the pagans who save us from the Hellish nightmare individuals like this would have us live in.

 

[jasoncran]

that's bad gr8grace. I have served with gays and I know of a few of the lbgt in country right now in my unit.

 

[Guest]

Leviticus 18:22 You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination. 1 Corinthians 6:9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality.

 

[Grappler]

You are a Christian right? You live in this nation right? Godless nation? I fight for you, you are why this nation is not Godless.

Yes. Yes. Yes. How are you fighting for me?? Let me be a little more specific. The leadership of this nation is Godless....capital G because they do have a god. Many people living in this country qualify as Godless as well. Wouldn't you agree? You must be in the military? How do you like this "great" nations military accepting the Godless lifestyle of homosexuality? How do you expect God to bless your military when it's leaders are evil?

I come at it from a different perspective than you. God Blesses this nation because He has spiritually mature believers residing here. He blesses Washington DC because He has a spiritually mature believer that cleans their toilets. He Blesses the Military because He has spiritually mature believers in that institution.

If there were 300,000 homosexuals in the military and one spiritually mature believer, God would bless the Military.

It is with everything, no matter How corrupt the institution is .....As goes the believer,as goes the institution.

If you do not realize that the military is fighting for you,I do not know what to tell you.

I would rather be in a foxhole with a drunk,smoking,high homosexual that would die for His God given country then a christian who was whining about violence and how he hates his country.

So what about the Christians that live in say....China? Does God bless China because of those people? What about those Christians that live in Iran? Does God bless that nation as well? That is right you don't know what to tell me about the military fighting for me because that is a bunch of bunk.lol The military won't defend the US southern border but it sure will kill some villagers in Afghanistan or Iraq. Your last sentence shows your true colors...you may want to edit that one or delete it all together.

 

[Atonement]

Greetings to you [MENTION=95330]gr8grace[/MENTION]

If there were 300,000 homosexuals in the military and one spiritually mature believer, God would bless the Military.

With this in mind, can you remember how God treated Sodom when Lot and his family were living there?

2 Peter 2:7 But God also rescued Lot out of Sodom because he was a righteous man who was sick of the shameful immorality of the wicked people around him.

 

[Grappler]

Like I've said.....thank God for the pagans who save us from the Hellish nightmare individuals like this would have us live in.

Wow you just gave Webster a new definition for the word oxymoron...lets take a look at the new definition of an oxymoron- A professing Christian who gives thanks to God for pagans.

 

[P31Woman]

Greetings to you through the love of Jesus Christ




Possibly:

Or it could be that there were looters all over the country side at that time, and they had swords for protection? Jesus and the disciples did do a lot of traveling during the 3 1/2 years of his ministry. We're not really sure though. All we are able to do is speculate.

But I am reminded of what Paul said in Romans chapter 13:

Romans 13:1 Everyone must submit to governing authorities. For all authority comes from God, and those in positions of authority have been placed there by God.

Romans 13:2 So anyone who rebels against authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and they will be punished.

Romans 13:3 For the authorities do not strike fear in people who are doing right, but in those who are doing wrong. Would you like to live without fear of the authorities? Do what is right, and they will honor you.

Romans 13:4 For the one in authority is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God's servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer.

Here is an excerpt I read recently

Just War Theory

Clearly, the Christian ideal is total elimination of war and brotherly love among all people. However, in this imperfect world, war may be forced on those who do not desire it. St. Augustine (354 - 430) and St. Thomas Aquinas (1225-1274) are primarily responsible for formulating the theory of the Just War which has remained the majority Christian approach to war to this day. There are many variations on the just war theory, but these are the basics:

There must be a just cause for the war.

War must be waged only in response to certain, grave and lasting damage inflicted by an aggressor.

The motive for war must be advancement of good or avoidance of evil.

The ultimate objective of war must be to bring peace.

Revenge, revolt, a desire to harm, dominate, or exploit and similar things are not justification for war.

Every possible means of peacefully settling the conflict must be exhausted first
.
There must be serious prospects of success; bloodshed without hope of victory cannot be justified.

The war must be declared by a legitimate authority. Private individuals or groups should seek redress of their rights through their governments, not by acts of war.

The war must not cause greater evil than the evil to be eliminated.

Non-combatants (civilians) must not be intentionally harmed.

Prisoners and conquered peoples must be treated justly.

I take the position and agree with this excerpt - but this is only my position and do not want to cause a stumbling block to anyone who disagrees with the position for which I stand. But if it's under the conditions mentioned above, I'll stand for our rights of freedom for the good of the people.

God Bless

Luke 22 The Lord's Supper

35 He said to them, “When I sent you out without a purse, bag, or sandals, did you lack anything?†They said, “No, not a thing.†36 He said to them, “But now, the one who has a purse must take it, and likewise a bag. And the one who has no sword must sell his cloak and buy one. 37 For I tell you, this scripture must be fulfilled in me, ‘And he was counted among the lawless’; and indeed what is written about me is being fulfilled.†38 They said, “Lord, look, here are two swords.†He replied, “It is enough.â€

Not sure where that ties in, or how you're trying to tie that in, but know that Scripture pretty well.. Can you elaborate for me please?

Sure,

I was thinking of your origional question:
"Makes me wonder why Peter had a sword in the first place"

The verse I posted showed that it was apparently normal for the disciples traveling with Jesus to have weapons. In fact, when Jesus told them if they did not have a sword to sell their coat and buy one their reply was "we have two". My view is much like yours that they had them for personal protection from both man and beast.

Having a sword strapped to your side lets people know you are not easy pry.

 

[jasoncran]

Leviticus 18:22 You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination. 1 Corinthians 6:9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality.

as Christian and former bisexual I stand where with you? look its after the lift of dadt. and since when was the military ever a bastion of morality?uhm I saw more sexual sins in the service then on the outside. Im still don't like the ban being lifted but I don't have much of a choice. I guess America was more christlike when men like me weren't served in the south cause of some jewish name. or hated by the kkk.

 

[Mike S]

You are a Christian right? You live in this nation right? Godless nation? I fight for you, you are why this nation is not Godless.

Yes. Yes. Yes. How are you fighting for me?? Let me be a little more specific. The leadership of this nation is Godless....capital G because they do have a god. Many people living in this country qualify as Godless as well. Wouldn't you agree? You must be in the military? How do you like this "great" nations military accepting the Godless lifestyle of homosexuality? How do you expect God to bless your military when it's leaders are evil?

I come at it from a different perspective than you. God Blesses this nation because He has spiritually mature believers residing here. He blesses Washington DC because He has a spiritually mature believer that cleans their toilets. He Blesses the Military because He has spiritually mature believers in that institution.

If there were 300,000 homosexuals in the military and one spiritually mature believer, God would bless the Military.

It is with everything, no matter How corrupt the institution is .....As goes the believer,as goes the institution.

If you do not realize that the military is fighting for you,I do not know what to tell you.

I would rather be in a foxhole with a drunk,smoking,high homosexual that would die for His God given country then a christian who was whining about violence and how he hates his country.

Hates his country? Where'd that come from?

 

[Atonement]

[MENTION=93981]P31Woman[/MENTION]

Sure,

I was thinking of your origional question:
"Makes me wonder why Peter had a sword in the first place"

The verse I posted showed that it was apparently normal for the disciples traveling with Jesus to have weapons. In fact, when Jesus told them if they did not have a sword to sell their coat and buy one their reply was "we have two". My view is much like yours that they had them for personal protection from both man and beast.

Having a sword strapped to your side lets people know you are not easy pry.

Thank you for the reply, I thought this is what you were referring too, but I did not want to speculate, so thank you for answering me back

 

[P31Woman]

You are a Christian right? You live in this nation right? Godless nation? I fight for you, you are why this nation is not Godless.

Yes. Yes. Yes. How are you fighting for me?? Let me be a little more specific. The leadership of this nation is Godless....capital G because they do have a god. Many people living in this country qualify as Godless as well. Wouldn't you agree? You must be in the military? How do you like this "great" nations military accepting the Godless lifestyle of homosexuality? How do you expect God to bless your military when it's leaders are evil?

I come at it from a different perspective than you. God Blesses this nation because He has spiritually mature believers residing here. He blesses Washington DC because He has a spiritually mature believer that cleans their toilets. He Blesses the Military because He has spiritually mature believers in that institution.

If there were 300,000 homosexuals in the military and one spiritually mature believer, God would bless the Military.

It is with everything, no matter How corrupt the institution is .....As goes the believer,as goes the institution.

If you do not realize that the military is fighting for you,I do not know what to tell you.

I would rather be in a foxhole with a drunk,smoking,high homosexual that would die for His God given country then a christian who was whining about violence and how he hates his country.

So what about the Christians that live in say....China? Does God bless China because of those people? What about those Christians that live in Iran? Does God bless that nation as well? That is right you don't know what to tell me about the military fighting for me because that is a bunch of bunk.lol The military won't defend the US southern border but it sure will kill some villagers in Afghanistan or Iraq. Your last sentence shows your true colors...you may want to edit that one or delete it all together.

How much do you know about China and what American Chrisitans are doing to help those Chrisitans/people know the true Gospel message rather than the "government approved message" in the "government regulated and registured" Churches?

I just came back from a prayer meeting for a group of pastors (mine included) who are in a remote area of China trying to teach pastors the true gospel message. They need our prayers.

I do believe God has blessed our nation with prosperity and freedom so that we can help other countries such as China know about Jesus Christ.

 

[Butch5]

So your would offer your wife your child to rapist? to the murder? You do realize this is what your are saying.. The creeps of this world should have not been stopped by physical force? The cops in Boston were wrong to go after the bomber they way they did?


What world do you live in? There is a difference between martyred and marterdumb .


Some folks are coward enough to live at the expense of others and take pride in doing so.

I don't know if this was to me or not, however, no one is saying to offer anyone to anyone. Let me ask you a question, who is better able to protect my family, me or God?

God uses the people of this world to achieve His goals. He doesn't need Christians to oppose His teachings to achieve His Goals. We can see from the OT that He destroyed whole nations without any help from anyone, surely He can handle a rapist or murderer without the Christians help. Would you agree?

 

[Mountain Man]

Like I've said.....thank God for the pagans who save us from the Hellish nightmare individuals like this would have us live in.

Wow you just gave Webster a new definition for the word oxymoron...lets take a look at the new definition of an oxymoron- A professing Christian who gives thanks to God for pagans.

Perhaps you have not followed the thread,some say that Christians cannot have any part in using force to oppose evil,since we have so much evil it is safe to assume that whatever these Christians have been doing apart from force to oppose evil has failed,and since according to some it is not possible for true christians to be policemen or in the Military that leaves the pagans so my thanks go to them for their service as policeman and soldiers to stem the tide of evil doers....true Christians I suppose I have nothing to thank them for.

 

[reba]

So your would offer your wife your child to rapist? to the murder? You do realize this is what your are saying.. The creeps of this world should have not been stopped by physical force? The cops in Boston were wrong to go after the bomber they way they did?


What world do you live in? There is a difference between martyred and marterdumb .


Some folks are coward enough to live at the expense of others and take pride in doing so.

I don't know if this was to me or not, however, no one is saying to offer anyone to anyone. Let me ask you a question, who is better able to protect my family, me or God?

God uses the people of this world to achieve His goals. He doesn't need Christians to oppose His teachings to achieve His Goals. We can see from the OT that He destroyed whole nations without any help from anyone, surely He can handle a rapist or murderer without the Christians help. Would you agree?

I believe you answered your own question I underlined it.