Christian Pacifism, can Christians go to war?

[P31Woman]

For you who believe in pacifism.. Chicago has a real crime problem about 500 dead last year... Take your message to the streets there ... I will be waiting your report...

No one said that obedience is easy, or without danger.

Yes, laying down the weapons probably puts you at risk. But that is what Jesus asks us to do.

No he did not!

 

[Drew]

Drew it is not a distortion it is how many of these posts read, to me. Maybe what is in your head/heart is not getting to the page?

Not good enough reba. You do not get to misrepresent me, and insultingly to boot, and then blame me for lack of clarity. My posts have been quite clear, and I suggest you know this.

I never posted anything that would justify this outrageous implication that I, and others like me, are "cowards" who sit back and let others do the dirty work.

 

[P31Woman]

Makes me wonder why Peter had a sword in the first place

A fair question. But I will wager that Jesus never approved of Peter having a sword, except in the special circumstance, recorded in Luke 22, where Jesus instructs His followers to arm themselves so that they will appear to be transgressors, thereby facilitating Jesus' wish to go to the Cross at the time of His choice (Passover).

That is not scriptural.

Edward pointed this out in another thread.

Luke: 22:47-53

47 While he was still speaking a crowd came up, and the man who was called Judas, one of the Twelve, was leading them. He approached Jesus to kiss him, 48 but Jesus asked him, “Judas, are you betraying the Son of Man with a kiss?”

49 When Jesus’ followers saw what was going to happen, they said, “Lord, should we strike with our swords?” 50 And one of them struck the servant of the high priest, cutting off his right ear.

51 But Jesus answered, “No more of this!” And he touched the man’s ear and healed him.

52 Then Jesus said to the chief priests, the officers of the temple guard, and the elders, who had come for him, “Am I leading a rebellion, that you have come with swords and clubs? 53 Every day I was with you in the temple courts, and you did not lay a hand on me. But this is your hour—when darkness reigns.”/

 

[Drew]

No he did not!

I am sorry, but Jesus does indeed ask us to obey, even unto death:

Then Jesus said to His disciples, “If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross and follow Me.

And there are other texts from other New Testament books. The gospel path is not about "protecting ourselves", it is about obedience to risky kingdom of God principles that can involve self-sacrifice.

 

[P31Woman]

No one said that obedience is easy, or without danger.

Yes, laying down the weapons probably puts you at risk. But that is what Jesus asks us to do.

No he did not!

I am sorry, but Jesus does indeed ask us to obey, even unto death:

Then Jesus said to His disciples, “If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross and follow Me.

And there are other texts from other New Testament books. The gospel path is not about "protecting ourselves", it is about obedience to risky kingdom of God principles that can involve self-sacrifice.

Where did you purchase your cross? How large is it? Are you allowed to eat, dress, take out a mortage or purchase an automobile? What about getting an education is that allowed? Those all things dealing with YOURSELF.

I am sure you don't have insurance or a computer. After all that is not about denying self.

 

[Drew]

That is not scriptural.

Yes, it is scriptural. I have dealt with the relevant text in post 135 in great detail.

If my view is not scriptural, please point out the error of the argument in post 135.

 

[Drew]

Where did you purchase your cross? How large is i

Surely you are not trying to argue that we are to take this text strictly literally, and that Jesus is instructing us to go out and crucify ourselves.

No reader will buy this - Jesus is clearly making a general point that obedience to the gospel entails self-sacrifice and danger. And yes, even danger unto death.

I get the impression that you, and others, thinks that protecting yourself from harm is the highest consideration here.

 

[jasoncran]

so why do you vote drew? why do you tell us to vote for the democratic party that is anti-military. I know you wont answer, but really to ask the devil whom controls the office if a Christian doesn't run or hold office to do the Lord's work is well laughable.

 

[P31Woman]

Where did you purchase your cross? How large is i

Surely you are not trying to argue that we are to take this text strictly literally, and that Jesus is instructing us to go out and crucify ourselves.

No reader will buy this - Jesus is clearly making a general point that obedience to the gospel entails self-sacrifice and danger. And yes, even danger unto death.

I get the impression that you, and others, thinks that protecting yourself from harm is the highest consideration here.

I am saying you have over spirituralized that passage ONLY to the point that it fits your agenda.

When someone rapes and murders you simply because they are perverted and evil, your death is not because of your faith. You cannot say you died for the faith.

We die for the faith when we refuse to stop preaching and people kill us to shut us up.

 

[Atonement]

Greetings to you through the love of Jesus Christ

Makes me wonder why Peter had a sword in the first place

A fair question. But I will wager that Jesus never approved of Peter having a sword, except in the special circumstance, recorded in Luke 22, where Jesus instructs His followers to arm themselves so that they will appear to be transgressors, thereby facilitating Jesus' wish to go to the Cross at the time of His choice (Passover).

Possibly:

Or it could be that there were looters all over the country side at that time, and they had swords for protection? Jesus and the disciples did do a lot of traveling during the 3 1/2 years of his ministry. We're not really sure though. All we are able to do is speculate.

But I am reminded of what Paul said in Romans chapter 13:

Romans 13:1 Everyone must submit to governing authorities. For all authority comes from God, and those in positions of authority have been placed there by God.

Romans 13:2 So anyone who rebels against authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and they will be punished.

Romans 13:3 For the authorities do not strike fear in people who are doing right, but in those who are doing wrong. Would you like to live without fear of the authorities? Do what is right, and they will honor you.

Romans 13:4 For the one in authority is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God's servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer.

Here is an excerpt I read recently

Just War Theory

Clearly, the Christian ideal is total elimination of war and brotherly love among all people. However, in this imperfect world, war may be forced on those who do not desire it. St. Augustine (354 - 430) and St. Thomas Aquinas (1225-1274) are primarily responsible for formulating the theory of the Just War which has remained the majority Christian approach to war to this day. There are many variations on the just war theory, but these are the basics:

There must be a just cause for the war.

War must be waged only in response to certain, grave and lasting damage inflicted by an aggressor.

The motive for war must be advancement of good or avoidance of evil.

The ultimate objective of war must be to bring peace.

Revenge, revolt, a desire to harm, dominate, or exploit and similar things are not justification for war.

Every possible means of peacefully settling the conflict must be exhausted first
.
There must be serious prospects of success; bloodshed without hope of victory cannot be justified.

The war must be declared by a legitimate authority. Private individuals or groups should seek redress of their rights through their governments, not by acts of war.

The war must not cause greater evil than the evil to be eliminated.

Non-combatants (civilians) must not be intentionally harmed.

Prisoners and conquered peoples must be treated justly.

I take the position and agree with this excerpt - but this is only my position and do not want to cause a stumbling block to anyone who disagrees with the position for which I stand. But if it's under the conditions mentioned above, I'll stand for our rights of freedom for the good of the people.

God Bless

 

[P31Woman]

That is not scriptural.

Yes, it is scriptural. I have dealt with the relevant text in post 135 in great detail.

If my view is not scriptural, please point out the error of the argument in post 135.

Edward pointed this out in another thread.

Luke: 22:47-53

47 While he was still speaking a crowd came up, and the man who was called Judas, one of the Twelve, was leading them. He approached Jesus to kiss him, 48 but Jesus asked him, “Judas, are you betraying the Son of Man with a kiss?”

49 When Jesus’ followers saw what was going to happen, they said, “Lord, should we strike with our swords?” 50 And one of them struck the servant of the high priest, cutting off his right ear.

51 But Jesus answered, “No more of this!” And he touched the man’s ear and healed him.

52 Then Jesus said to the chief priests, the officers of the temple guard, and the elders, who had come for him, “Am I leading a rebellion, that you have come with swords and clubs? 53 Every day I was with you in the temple courts, and you did not lay a hand on me. But this is your hour—when darkness reigns.”/

 

[P31Woman]

Greetings to you through the love of Jesus Christ

Makes me wonder why Peter had a sword in the first place

A fair question. But I will wager that Jesus never approved of Peter having a sword, except in the special circumstance, recorded in Luke 22, where Jesus instructs His followers to arm themselves so that they will appear to be transgressors, thereby facilitating Jesus' wish to go to the Cross at the time of His choice (Passover).

Possibly:

Or it could be that there were looters all over the country side at that time, and they had swords for protection? Jesus and the disciples did do a lot of traveling during the 3 1/2 years of his ministry. We're not really sure though. All we are able to do is speculate.

But I am reminded of what Paul said in Romans chapter 13:

Romans 13:1 Everyone must submit to governing authorities. For all authority comes from God, and those in positions of authority have been placed there by God.

Romans 13:2 So anyone who rebels against authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and they will be punished.

Romans 13:3 For the authorities do not strike fear in people who are doing right, but in those who are doing wrong. Would you like to live without fear of the authorities? Do what is right, and they will honor you.

Romans 13:4 For the one in authority is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God's servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer.

Here is an excerpt I read recently

Just War Theory

Clearly, the Christian ideal is total elimination of war and brotherly love among all people. However, in this imperfect world, war may be forced on those who do not desire it. St. Augustine (354 - 430) and St. Thomas Aquinas (1225-1274) are primarily responsible for formulating the theory of the Just War which has remained the majority Christian approach to war to this day. There are many variations on the just war theory, but these are the basics:

There must be a just cause for the war.

War must be waged only in response to certain, grave and lasting damage inflicted by an aggressor.

The motive for war must be advancement of good or avoidance of evil.

The ultimate objective of war must be to bring peace.

Revenge, revolt, a desire to harm, dominate, or exploit and similar things are not justification for war.

Every possible means of peacefully settling the conflict must be exhausted first
.
There must be serious prospects of success; bloodshed without hope of victory cannot be justified.

The war must be declared by a legitimate authority. Private individuals or groups should seek redress of their rights through their governments, not by acts of war.

The war must not cause greater evil than the evil to be eliminated.

Non-combatants (civilians) must not be intentionally harmed.

Prisoners and conquered peoples must be treated justly.

I take the position and agree with this excerpt - but this is only my position and do not want to cause a stumbling block to anyone who disagrees with the position for which I stand. But if it's under the conditions mentioned above, I'll stand for our rights of freedom for the good of the people.

God Bless

Luke 22 The Lord's Supper

35 He said to them, “When I sent you out without a purse, bag, or sandals, did you lack anything?†They said, “No, not a thing.†36 He said to them, “But now, the one who has a purse must take it, and likewise a bag. And the one who has no sword must sell his cloak and buy one. 37 For I tell you, this scripture must be fulfilled in me, ‘And he was counted among the lawless’; and indeed what is written about me is being fulfilled.†38 They said, “Lord, look, here are two swords.†He replied, “It is enoug.â€

 

[Atonement]

Greetings to you through the love of Jesus Christ




Possibly:

Or it could be that there were looters all over the country side at that time, and they had swords for protection? Jesus and the disciples did do a lot of traveling during the 3 1/2 years of his ministry. We're not really sure though. All we are able to do is speculate.

But I am reminded of what Paul said in Romans chapter 13:

Romans 13:1 Everyone must submit to governing authorities. For all authority comes from God, and those in positions of authority have been placed there by God.

Romans 13:2 So anyone who rebels against authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and they will be punished.

Romans 13:3 For the authorities do not strike fear in people who are doing right, but in those who are doing wrong. Would you like to live without fear of the authorities? Do what is right, and they will honor you.

Romans 13:4 For the one in authority is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God's servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer.

Here is an excerpt I read recently

Just War Theory

Clearly, the Christian ideal is total elimination of war and brotherly love among all people. However, in this imperfect world, war may be forced on those who do not desire it. St. Augustine (354 - 430) and St. Thomas Aquinas (1225-1274) are primarily responsible for formulating the theory of the Just War which has remained the majority Christian approach to war to this day. There are many variations on the just war theory, but these are the basics:

There must be a just cause for the war.

War must be waged only in response to certain, grave and lasting damage inflicted by an aggressor.

The motive for war must be advancement of good or avoidance of evil.

The ultimate objective of war must be to bring peace.

Revenge, revolt, a desire to harm, dominate, or exploit and similar things are not justification for war.

Every possible means of peacefully settling the conflict must be exhausted first
.
There must be serious prospects of success; bloodshed without hope of victory cannot be justified.

The war must be declared by a legitimate authority. Private individuals or groups should seek redress of their rights through their governments, not by acts of war.

The war must not cause greater evil than the evil to be eliminated.

Non-combatants (civilians) must not be intentionally harmed.

Prisoners and conquered peoples must be treated justly.

I take the position and agree with this excerpt - but this is only my position and do not want to cause a stumbling block to anyone who disagrees with the position for which I stand. But if it's under the conditions mentioned above, I'll stand for our rights of freedom for the good of the people.

God Bless

Luke 22 The Lord's Supper

35 He said to them, “When I sent you out without a purse, bag, or sandals, did you lack anything?” They said, “No, not a thing.” 36 He said to them, “But now, the one who has a purse must take it, and likewise a bag. And the one who has no sword must sell his cloak and buy one. 37 For I tell you, this scripture must be fulfilled in me, ‘And he was counted among the lawless’; and indeed what is written about me is being fulfilled.” 38 They said, “Lord, look, here are two swords.” He replied, “It is enough.”

Not sure where that ties in, or how you're trying to tie that in, but know that Scripture pretty well.. Can you elaborate for me please?

 

[Doulos Iesou]

Makes me wonder why Peter had a sword in the first place

Well, you have to realize it from a 1st Century Jewish perspective. Jesus was the Messiah they believed, and they thought that Jesus would go into power over Israel and restore God's kingdom by becoming a military power. He had the sword because of his foolish misconception that Jesus would overthrow Caesar and redeem Israel from Roman occupation, however he didn't realize that Jesus was actually going to his sacrificial death to once and for all deal with sin for God's people and then rise and ascend to sit in power at the right hand of the Father.

Jesus' certainly did not approve of his violence, as Jesus himself rebuked him when he used it.

 

[Atonement]

Makes me wonder why Peter had a sword in the first place

Well, you have to realize it from a 1st Century Jewish perspective. Jesus was the Messiah they believed, and they thought that Jesus would go into power over Israel and restore God's kingdom by becoming a military power. He had the sword because of his foolish misconception that Jesus would overthrow Caesar and redeem Israel from Roman occupation, however he didn't realize that Jesus was actually going to his sacrificial death to once and for all deal with sin for God's people and then rise and ascend to sit in power at the right hand of the Father.

Jesus' certainly did not approve of his violence, as Jesus himself rebuked him when he used it.

Makes sense

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

I see everyone has been busy while I was away.

As for the use of weapons to fight the enemy:

The Reverend David Wilkerson went to the pits of New York City armed with his Bible and proved beyond a shadow of doubt that the Cross is stronger than the switchblade.

True story, true faith and trust in Jesus.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

Luke 22 The Lord's Supper

35 He said to them, “When I sent you out without a purse, bag, or sandals, did you lack anything?” They said, “No, not a thing.” 36 He said to them, “But now, the one who has a purse must take it, and likewise a bag. And the one who has no sword must sell his cloak and buy one. 37 For I tell you, this scripture must be fulfilled in me, ‘And he was counted among the lawless’; and indeed what is written about me is being fulfilled.” 38 They said, “Lord, look, here are two swords.” He replied, “It is enough.”

This is just a matter of poor exegesis here.. for one to think Jesus was condoning the use of swords and violence with his statements here has drastically damaged the message of Jesus.

Let's examine the text a little closely, Jesus was basically telling them that they had to sell their cloak and buy a sword, now the question is why would Jesus ask that? Now, we could hypothesize and say was it literal or metaphorical? Or... we could just read the text.

For I tell you that this that is written must be fulfilled in me: ‘And he was counted with the criminals.’ For indeed, what is written about me is being fulfilled.” (Lk 22:37).

This is a quotation from Isaiah 53:12,

Therefore, I will divide to him a portion among the many,
and with the strong ones he will divide bounty,
⌊because⌋ he poured his life out to death
and was counted with the transgressors;
and he was the one who bore the sin of many
and will intercede for the transgressors. (Is 53:12).

Jesus quotes it here to support what he is saying, he is not telling them to use violence to defend themselves, but rather so that the prophecy given in Isaiah 53:12 might be fulfilled. It is fulfilled, with the disciples appearing to be criminals, appearing to be transgressors and Jesus being captured in the midst of them and regarded as one who would be attempting to overthrow Rome, so as to be put to death.

 

[Grappler]

I think this subject shows were we "really" place our faith.

I have to agree with you there Butch. It cracks me up at all these Christians who are ready to march out and kill for a Godless nation as this one.lol

You are a Christian right? You live in this nation right? Godless nation? I fight for you, you are why this nation is not Godless.

Yes. Yes. Yes. How are you fighting for me?? Let me be a little more specific. The leadership of this nation is Godless....capital G because they do have a god. Many people living in this country qualify as Godless as well. Wouldn't you agree? You must be in the military? How do you like this "great" nations military accepting the Godless lifestyle of homosexuality? How do you expect God to bless your military when it's leaders are evil?

 

[jasoncran]

the cross and its judgement was for those that commited capital crimes. the apostles aren't mentioned there. if so then why weren't they charged? surely they did do works and were with him and the jews would know whom they all were. its not like they hid from them until that day. if the jews really wanted the apostles they could have gone after them and got them. but as the saying goes take out the head and the body will die.

 

[Grappler]

the cross and its judgement was for those that commited capital crimes. the apostles aren't mentioned there. if so then why weren't they charged? surely they did do works and were with him and the jews would know whom they all were. its not like they hid from them until that day. if the jews really wanted the apostles they could have gone after them and got them. but as the saying goes take out the head and the body will die.

totopic