Christian, why do you believe you'll go to Heaven?

[smaller]

Actually you began this discussion with me. So now what?

I remarked to your comment that parables were, in effect, stories. And I pointed out that Biblical parables contain 'real' entities.

There is a marked difference between Biblical parables and parables of the world.

One of the two is a reality. Biblical parables concern real matters.

And that is the essence of what I was pointing to.

IN the 'story' of little red riding hood there is a talking big bad wolf. That's a fantasy story.

IN every Biblical parable there is a hidden character(s) revealed called Satan and devils who are in fact real entities, yet they are unseen. That is why the information about them is conveyed by parable.

And the more interesting part is that these entities are overlayed upon mankind, making the fact of these parables even more interesting.

and to ratchet up the conversation to even more interesting levels, scriptures IN PARABLE present that those entities IN MAN resist exposure when PARABLES are applied to reveal them.

How far ya wanna take the conversation?

You believe that Lazarus was sitting on Abraham's lap chit-chatting away with a dead man burning in torment and I do not.

We both agreed that it is a parable and that it does not entail hell in the Lake of Fire sense.

I proposed Jesus' method given for parable analysis in Mark 4. I understand that you won't like it.

So I guess we agree to disagree and go on our way don't we? What else would you like to discuss?

Have we really discussed anything yet? I think we did discover that you don't believe there is an eternal Lake of Fire and I consider that a fairly recent apostasy of some good intentioned believers who don't see the benefit of Satan and devils heading there and somehow prefer to either make fun of people like me who believe there are real evil spirits who will factually be put away forever in the Lake of Fire, or they want to 'save' evil spirits via Satanic salvation.

s

 

[Butch5]

Where did God say people go to Heaven when they die? Where is this clear text?

Romans 6:5 If we have been united with him like this in his death, we will certainly also be united with him in his resurrection.

Philippians 3:14 I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.

Neither of these passages even mention Heaven.

I asked if Jesus or the Apostles ever mention a paradise earth where mankind will live forever. I’m waiting for your answer J

“The Bible never uses the terms "resurrected body," "resurrection of the body," or "physical resurrectionâ€

Philippians 3:20 For our citizenship is in heaven, from which also we eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ;

Matthew 5:12 Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great isyour reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.

2 Corinthians 5:2 Meanwhile we groan, longing to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling,

Heaven NT:3772 ouranos (oo-ran-os'); heaven as the abode of God specifically, the Gospel(Christianity): New Exhaustive Strong's

heav·en

/ˈhɛv

ən/ Show Spelled [hev-uh

n] Show IPA noun

the abode of God, the angels, and the spirits of the righteous after death; the place or state of existence of the blessed after the mortal life


Webster Dictionary

heav·en

noun \ˈhe-vən\
Definition of HEAVEN

The dwelling place of the Deity and the blessed dead

Before time,

That someone defines Heaven as a place for the dead doesn't make it so. There is nothing in the Scriptures that teach that the dead go to Heaven. If you are aware of anything stating that please post it. Inferences, while they can be correct aren't always necessarily correct. Just because one's reward is in Heaven doesn't necessitate that they go there to get it, that is simply an inference and "not" a fact. If one wants to prove that Christians go to Heaven it is necessary that they deal in facts, not inferences. One "must" have facts to prove something.

Regarding paradise, if you look at the LXX you'll find that the Garden of Eden is called paradise in it. Also, Jesus speaks of Paradise in Revelation.

7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God. (Rev 2:7 KJV)

Notice the Tree of Life is in the midst of the paradise of God. Look at the creation account and take notice where the Tree of Life is.

9 And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil. (Gen 2:9 KJV)

IN verse 9 the Greek word translated "Garden" is παραδείσῳ which means paradise.

If you look, you'll see that in Rev 2 Jesus was quoting from Ezekiel 47. If you read that chapter it is clear that what Ezekiel is speaking of is on earth as he give the land divisions among the Jews.

You mentioned the resurrection of the body. According to those who claim the Heavenly destiny, that being that they go to Heaven upon death claim a disembodied consciousness. This consciousness they claim is not dead. The word Greek word translated resurrection literally means to stand again. It is the body that dies and stands again, not a disembodied consciousness.

 

[Butch5]

George,

You're rejecting the Greek text and grammar. I showed you what the Greek text says. The adjective being translated "Heavenly" is being used as a substantive. A substantive is an Adjective that stands in the place of a noun. The adjective Heavenly needs a noun to modify, however, Paul didn't supply one thus, he used the adjective as a noun, a substantive. Now, the adjective is in the neuter gender therefore any noun that it would modify needs to be in the neuter gender also. Since it is a substantive and in the neuter gender, it means things, Heavenly things, not places.

Here is a link where you can read about the Adjectival Substantive.

Substantival Use of Greek Adjectives


The adjective can also be used alone (with or without the article) as a noun (

Well it is clear that no Greek scholar agrees with your conclusion, and the word is describing "heaven" no matter if you make it a adjective or what gender or anything else. Even the context says aorist tense that we are raised up together and "seated with Him" in the heavens. I find no greek scholar that would come to your conclusion? I find that many attempt to use the Greek as a way to explain away the truth.

Eph 2:6 (KJV) And hath raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus:
Eph 2:6 (ASV) and raised us up with him, and made us to sit with him in the heavenly [places], in Christ Jesus:
Eph 2:6 (BBE) So that we came back from death with him, and are seated with him in the heavens, in Christ Jesus;
Eph 2:6 (DBY) and has raised [us] up together, and has made [us] sit down together in the heavenlies in Christ Jesus,
Eph 2:6 (MKJV) and has raised [us] up together and made [us] sit together in the heavenlies in Christ Jesus,
Eph 2:6 (MNT) together with him He raised us from the dead, and together with Christ Jesus seated us in the heavenly realm,
Eph 2:6 (NKJV) and raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in the heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus,
Eph 2:6 (Oracl) and has raised us up together, and has set us down together in heavenly places with Christ Jesus;
Eph 2:6 (RSV) and raised us up with him, and made us sit with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
Eph 2:6 (TCNT) And, through our union with Christ Jesus, God raised us with him, and caused us to sit with him on high,
Eph 2:6 (WEB) and raised us up with him, and made us to sit with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
Eph 2:6 (WNT) raised us with Him from the dead, and enthroned us with Him in the heavenly realms as being in Christ Jesus,
Eph 2:6 (YLT) and did raise [us] up together, and did seat [us] together in the heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus,

George,

Where are you right now, In Heaven or on earth?

Well it is clear what Gods word says, that a believer is seated in Christ in heaven. Now I know these things are hard to understand "for great is the mystery of godliness" but the bible is true, whether some understand it or can believe it.

Col 1:12 ¶ Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;
20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

Col 1:26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:
27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

Its called the "mystery" Spend your time trying to believe the bible, not trying to disprove the bible and you might be allowed to understand the deeper things of God?

Greorge,

Where are you right now?

The mystery is that the Gentiles would be fellow heirs. We're not talking about that. Regarding proving the Bible, I am. What I am not doing is proving what translators say. You've posted translators who added the word "places". I'm giving you the Greek text which does not say places. You continue to quote a passage that you believe indicates that you are seated in Heaven yet I asked you where you are currently located. I'll rephrase it, as you read are you currently on earth?

 

[Butch5]

Revelation 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

Angelos (angel) means messenger. Jesus was the messenger that brought the message to John.

I believe you to be correct concerning what an angel is, but saints can also be messengers, and in this case I do believe Jesus' angel was just such a one due to the following scriptures.

Revelation 19:9 And he (the messenger) saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

Revelation 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

Revelation 22:9 Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.

Hi Eugene,

What is your evidence that this is the same messenger as mentioned in Chapter 1? Also, you mentioned saints, are you referring to men or heavenly beings?

 

[Butch5]

How do these verses apply? I can read it a couple different ways. Is Christ saying the risen will be like the angels (which are) in heaven or is he saying the risen will be in heaven like the angels?

From Mark 12, KJV

23 In the resurrection therefore, when they shall rise, whose wife shall she be of them? for the seven had her to wife.
24 And Jesus answering said unto them, Do ye not therefore err, because ye know not the scriptures, neither the power of God?
25 For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven.

The angels are in Heaven not the resurrected.

If I understand you correctly, you are saying that we will never be in heaven?

Yes, that's my understanding. I see nothing in Scripture that teaches people go to Heaven.

 

[Butch5]

George, this has been addressed. The word places is "NOT" in the Greek texts, it was added by the translators. Heavenly is an adjective, it's being used as a substantive, is in the neuter gender and has the definite article. The neuter gender indicates things, not places. It should read 'made us to sit together in the heavenly things.'

Well you just replaced "things" for "places" and tried to explain away the word; "heaven" which is not a adjective but a noun.
epouraniov epouranios, ep-oo-ran'-ee-os
from 1909 and 3772; above the sky:--celestial, (in) heaven(-ly), high
the sky; by extension, heaven (as the abode of God); by implication, happiness, power, eternity; specially, the Gospel (Christianity):--air, heaven(-ly), sky

The word "together" was used three times in Eph 2:5-6. It is describing our union with Christ in being "quickened" (Eph 2:5), "raised" (this verse), and seated "in heavenly places" (this verse). None of these things are possible on our own. It is only through our union with Christ that any of this is attainable. Our victory in the Christian life is dependent on our dependency on Christ and not on ourselves. There is nothing more frustrating than trying to live for Christ. Instead, we need to recognize our weaknesses and let Him live through us.
"Made us sit" (this verse), "raised" (Eph 1:20 and this verse), and "quickened" (Eph 2:1 and 5) are all in the aorist tense. This indicates something that God has already accomplished in Christ, not something that is off in the future.

I'm sorry George but you're incorrect. "Heavenly" is an adjective not a noun, that why it has an "ly" on the end. Here are the morphological codes.

ἐπουράνιος adjective normal dative neuter plural no degree from ἐπουράνιος

Notice it is an adjective in the neuter gender. It's being used as a substantive and in the neuter gender means things, not places.

I agree Butch. BUT the context of the Verse is UNION WITH CHRIST and SEATED WITH HIM. Where is Christ RIGHT NOW? IN HEAVEN, heavenly things INCLUDE where Jesus is.

The passage says seated with Him in Heavenly things. It doesn't say seated with Him. What Heavenly things is Jesus seated in? Is it not His kingdom, the Kingdom of Heaven? Are Christians part of the Kingdom of Heaven? Yes. Didn't Paul say that God translated us into the kingdom of His dear Son? This kingdom is the heavenly things in which Christians are seated with Christ. That doesn't necessitate that they be in Heaven if Jesus is there. Let me ask you are you transported to Heaven every time you have a group prayer? Jesus said where two or three are gathered in my name, I am there. Was He teaching that people are transported to Heaven when in group prayer? What about your current location, are you currently posting from Heaven, or are you on earth like everyone else?

I find it odd that this verse is even quoted since anyone quoting it obviously has to agree that they are standing on this earth.

 

[Butch5]

So it appears that you don't know what a hyperbole is. So it is a biblical fact that as Paul wrote Ephesians he was sitting in heaven??? Wow. So let me get this straight. Paul wrote Ephesians from heaven and Lazarus had a conversation with a man burning in hell while he sat on Abraham's lap???

Well Im glad the scriptures seem to be a joke to you? Do you understand what the word "mystery" means?
and many things that Paul writes are hard to understand, just as he said in this same book.
Eph 3:3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

You do understand that a believer is saved in spirit not in flesh? And Paul is teaching the "mystery" of the gospel throughout his epistles, and even teaches this very truth here and in other epistles.
So you may not understand? It could be be that instead of trying to prove the bible is not true, if some would spend that same time trying to understand and believe the bible, many would be able to understand the scriptures as they should.

You said "well I am glad that scriptures seem to be a joke to you?" This statement is not very clear since you added the ? mark. Are you asking me if scriptures are a joke to me or are you taking it upon yourself to tell me how I view scripture? It is a "mystery" to me how you like to ignore certain scripture and then twist other scripture...well actually it is not a mystery to me why you do it... people like you have been doing that for centuries. Don't you mean people should spend time trying to understand the bible as YOU want them too, George?

The clear reading of the scriptures, in any translation, proves the simple and plain point I was making. Not ignoring anything, not twisting anything but just believeing the clear intentions of the words.

Eph 2:6 (KJV) And hath raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus:
Eph 2:6 (ASV) and raised us up with him, and made us to sit with him in the heavenly [places], in Christ Jesus:
Eph 2:6 (BBE) So that we came back from death with him, and are seated with him in the heavens, in Christ Jesus;
Eph 2:6 (DBY) and has raised [us] up together, and has made [us] sit down together in the heavenlies in Christ Jesus,
Eph 2:6 (MKJV) and has raised [us] up together and made [us] sit together in the heavenlies in Christ Jesus,
Eph 2:6 (MNT) together with him He raised us from the dead, and together with Christ Jesus seated us in the heavenly realm,
Eph 2:6 (NKJV) and raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in the heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus,
Eph 2:6 (Oracl) and has raised us up together, and has set us down together in heavenly places with Christ Jesus;
Eph 2:6 (RSV) and raised us up with him, and made us sit with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
Eph 2:6 (TCNT) And, through our union with Christ Jesus, God raised us with him, and caused us to sit with him on high,
Eph 2:6 (WEB) and raised us up with him, and made us to sit with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
Eph 2:6 (WNT) raised us with Him from the dead, and enthroned us with Him in the heavenly realms as being in Christ Jesus,
Eph 2:6 (YLT) and did raise [us] up together, and did seat [us] together in the heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus,

The translators words, not the Bible's. You're making your argument based on a word added by translators.

 

[Butch5]

To those who hold that Luke 16 refers to a disembodied consciousness, please address this. Was Paul wrong?

We have proof positive from Paul that there is not conscious state for those who are dead.

13 But if there is no resurrection of the dead, neither hath Christ been raised: 14 and if Christ hath not been raised, then is our preaching vain, your faith also is vain. 15 Yea, we are found false witnesses of God; because we witnessed of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead are not raised. 16 For if the dead are not raised, neither hath Christ been raised: 17 and if Christ hath not been raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. 18 Then they also that are fallen asleep in Christ have perished. (1Co 15:1 ASV)

Paul said, if Christ isn't raised then those who died in Christ have perished. If they were alive in some disembodied state they wouldn't have perished, even if Christ was not risen. This proves that they are not conscious after death.

 

[Butch5]

Those who hold Luke 16 as teaching a disembodied consciousness, please address these questions.

It looks like we're going to have to have discussion about Lazarus and the Rich man. It seems some believe this passages is suggesting a conscious existence after death. For those who are seriously inquiring I would like pose a few questions.

1. Why was Lazarus taken to paradise and not Heaven?
2. Why was he carried to Abraham's bosom? Why Abraham?
3. Why did Jesus specify that the Rich man had 5 brothers.
4. Why is the rich man condemned to Hell for being rich and Lazarus sent to Abraham's bosom for being poor?
5 Is there any significance to Lazarus' desiring to be fed with the crumbs that fell from the rich man's table?
6. How would that idea fit the context of Jesus' conversation?
7. How do you address that this would be completely unique and contrary to what the Bible teaches on the subject outside of this one passage?

There are more but think about these and see what you come up with.

 

[Eugene]

What is your evidence that this is the same messenger as mentioned in Chapter 1? Also, you mentioned saints, are you referring to men or heavenly beings?

Hi Butch, I'm not quite sure what you're asking as to location determining whether a son of God is called holy, or a saint.

Matthew 27:52 ". .many bodies of the saints which slept arose."
Acts 9:13 ". . thy saints at Jerusalem."
Acts 9:32 ". . the saints which dwelt at Lydda"
Acts 26:10 ". . many of the saints did I shut up in prison.
Romans 1:7 "To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called saints.
Ephesians 3:8 "Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints."

Concerning Jesus' angel (messenger) being the same one of Revelation 19:9, I don't see another that fits the description of Revelation 1:1 that "Signified (to make known) it by his angel (Jesus' messenger) unto his servant John."

Revelation 19:9 repeated: "And he (Jesus' angel or messenger) saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God."

I might also add where John was in spirit at that time. Revelation 4:1. "a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither,

 

[Larry H]

Neither of these passages even mention Heaven.

I asked if Jesus or the Apostles ever mention a paradise earth where mankind will live forever. I’m waiting for your answer J

“The Bible never uses the terms "resurrected body," "resurrection of the body," or "physical resurrection”

Philippians 3:20 For our citizenship is in heaven, from which also we eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ;

Matthew 5:12 Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great isyour reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.

2 Corinthians 5:2 Meanwhile we groan, longing to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling,

Heaven NT:3772 ouranos (oo-ran-os'); heaven as the abode of God specifically, the Gospel(Christianity): New Exhaustive Strong's

heav·en

/ˈhɛv

ən/ Show Spelled [hev-uh

n] Show IPA noun

the abode of God, the angels, and the spirits of the righteous after death; the place or state of existence of the blessed after the mortal life


Webster Dictionary

heav·en

noun \ˈhe-vən\
Definition of HEAVEN

The dwelling place of the Deity and the blessed dead

Before time,

That someone defines Heaven as a place for the dead doesn't make it so. Thereis nothing in the Scriptures that teach that the dead go to Heaven. If you areaware of anything stating that please post it. Inferences, while they can becorrect aren't always necessarily correct. Just because one's reward is inHeaven doesn't necessitate that they go there to get it, that is simply aninference and "not" a fact. If one wants to prove that Christians goto Heaven it is necessary that they deal in facts, not inferences. One"must" have facts to prove something.

Regarding paradise, if you look at the LXX you'll find that the Garden of Edenis called paradise in it. Also, Jesus speaks of Paradisein Revelation.

7 Hethat hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To himthat overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in themidst of the paradise of God. (Rev 2:7 KJV)

Notice the Tree of Life is in the midst of the paradise of God. Look at thecreation account and take notice where the Tree of Life is.

9 Andout of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to thesight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden,and the tree of knowledge of good and evil. (Gen 2:9 KJV)

IN verse 9 the Greek word translated "Garden" is παραδείσῳ which meansparadise.

If you look, you'll see that in Rev 2 Jesus was quoting from Ezekiel 47. Ifyou read that chapter it is clear that what Ezekiel is speaking of is on earthas he give the land divisions among the Jews.

You mentioned the resurrection of the body. According to those who claimthe Heavenly destiny, that being that they go to Heaven upon death claim adisembodied consciousness. This consciousness they claim is not dead. The wordGreek word translated resurrection literally means to stand again. It is thebody that dies and stands again, not a disembodied consciousness.

Hi Butch

Resurrection anastasis: a standing up, i.e. a resurrection, a raising up, rising
Original Word: ἀνάστασις,εως, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: anastasis
Phonetic Spelling: (an-as'-tas-is)
Short Definition: a RISING AGAIN, resurrection
Definition: a rising again, resurrection.

Try to follow me here Butch, and your conclusion on the matter.

I am going to assume you believe Isaiah is speaking about the paradise earth, as does Revelation 21: 1-4 in the afterlife. “Resurrection”

Isaiah 65:17 For, lo, I am creating NEW HEAVENS, AND A NEW EARTH, And the former things are not remembered, Nor do they ascend on the heart.

And again I presume you consider Matthew is referring to No marriage in the New Earth

Matthew 22:30 At the RESURRECTION people will NEITHER MARRY NOR BE GIVEN IN MARRIAGE; they will be like the angels in heaven.

If you do believe the above than there will be ILLEGITIMATE CHILDREN born in the New Earth, paradise, is that correct?

Isaiah 65:20 "NEVER AGAIN WILL THERE BE IN IT AN INFANT WHO LIVES BUT A FEW DAYS, or an old man who does not live out his years; he who dies at a hundred will be thought a mere youth; he who fails to reach a hundred will be considered accursed.

Does this create a dilemma? What’s your take!

 

[Eugene]

1. Why was Lazarus taken to paradise and not Heaven?
2. Why was he carried to Abraham's bosom? Why Abraham?
3. Why did Jesus specify that the Rich man had 5 brothers.
4. Why is the rich man condemned to Hell for being rich and Lazarus sent to Abraham's bosom for being poor?
5 Is there any significance to Lazarus' desiring to be fed with the crumbs that fell from the rich man's table?
6. How would that idea fit the context of Jesus' conversation?
7. How do you address that this would be completely unique and contrary to what the Bible teaches on the subject outside of this one passage?

Many questions, but God said it, I believe it, and that's good enough for me?

Many times scripture to me applies to more than one context: how many sermons can be preached on John 3:16? The is the story of a preacher being asked to preach some sermons at a church seeking to hire a needed pastor. The first Sunday he preached on John 3:16 and the congregation were just thrilled. Next Sunday he preached on John 3:16 and again it was well received. The third Sunday he preached on John 3:16 and this time the people became concerned and the elders or whatever approached and said something to this effect: We have loved your sermons on John 3:16, but don't you know anything else? Of course he answered, but until you understand that, there's little use of going anywhere else.

I just had cause to use this following scripture to a dear young man, and I believe it fits here. Hebrews 8:5 "Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things." Things of law, the tabernacle, sacrifices, Old Testament stories, and parables are many times given as types of heavenly things, and I think especially of present and future conditions.

One last element of your list included where paradise was and is, and why Abraham. Abraham believed God and it was imputed unto him as righteousness. The same would necessarily be applied to all who believed God and as such were considered in Abraham; the place of the righteous at that time. Before Jesus died making provision for our acceptance the thief on the cross was told he would be that day with Jesus in paradise (Luke 23:43). Where was it at? Ephesians 4:9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?" Where was paradise later? 2 Corinthians 12:4 How that he (Paul) was caught up into paradise. First paradise was in the lower parts of the earth, and now it is UP. Now we which believe are considered in Christ.

Blessings in Christ Jesus.

 

[Butch5]

1. Why was Lazarus taken to paradise and not Heaven?
2. Why was he carried to Abraham's bosom? Why Abraham?
3. Why did Jesus specify that the Rich man had 5 brothers.
4. Why is the rich man condemned to Hell for being rich and Lazarus sent to Abraham's bosom for being poor?
5 Is there any significance to Lazarus' desiring to be fed with the crumbs that fell from the rich man's table?
6. How would that idea fit the context of Jesus' conversation?
7. How do you address that this would be completely unique and contrary to what the Bible teaches on the subject outside of this one passage?

Many questions, but God said it, I believe it, and that's good enough for me?

Many times scripture to me applies to more than one context: how many sermons can be preached on John 3:16? The is the story of a preacher being asked to preach some sermons at a church seeking to hire a needed pastor. The first Sunday he preached on John 3:16 and the congregation were just thrilled. Next Sunday he preached on John 3:16 and again it was well received. The third Sunday he preached on John 3:16 and this time the people became concerned and the elders or whatever approached and said something to this effect: We have loved your sermons on John 3:16, but don't you know anything else? Of course he answered, but until you understand that, there's little use of going anywhere else.

I just had cause to use this following scripture to a dear young man, and I believe it fits here. Hebrews 8:5 "Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things." Things of law, the tabernacle, sacrifices, Old Testament stories, and parables are many times given as types of heavenly things, and I think especially of present and future conditions.

One last element of your list included where paradise was and is, and why Abraham. Abraham believed God and it was imputed unto him as righteousness. The same would necessarily be applied to all who believed God and as such were considered in Abraham; the place of the righteous at that time. Before Jesus died making provision for our acceptance the thief on the cross was told he would be that day with Jesus in paradise (Luke 23:43). Where was it at? Ephesians 4:9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?" Where was paradise later? 2 Corinthians 12:4 How that he (Paul) was caught up into paradise. First paradise was in the lower parts of the earth, and now it is UP. Now we which believe are considered in Christ.

Blessings in Christ Jesus.

Hi Eugene,

You said, God said it and you believe it. Ok, my question is, how do you know you understand it properly?

One can preached multiple sermons from one passage, however, does that mean that the writer of the passage had multiple meanings for the passage? When Paul wrote to the Corinthians to correct their behavior, do you suppose he expected each of them to interpret his words differently, or as they saw fit? Or, did he have a specific meaning behind what he said?

You spoke of Paradise and you drew an inference and stated it as a fact. This is one of the issues I have been trying to address with Christians and the arguments they make. Inference are "Not" facts, they are inferences. You said.

Before Jesus died making provision for our acceptance the thief on the cross was told he would be that day with Jesus in paradise (Luke 23:43). Where was it at? Ephesians 4:9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?"

From the statement made to the thief and the Scripture about Jesus being three days in the heart of the earth you've deduced that paradise is in the he.art of the earth. This is "NOT" a fact, it is an inference. It may be logical, but that doesn't necessitate that it is true. So, if you base doctrine on this you are basing it on inference, not fact.

Here's were you're problem arises. That passage, today you will be with me in paradise, did not have punctuation when it was originally written. Translators have added the punctuation. The meaning of that passage changes depending on how it is punctuated. Jesus said,

43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise. (Luk 23:43 KJV)

However, it can also correctly be punctuated this way.

43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee To day, shalt thou be with me in paradise. (Luk 23:43 KJV)

Do you see what I did? I simply moved the comma over one word and changed what the passage says. Was Jesus saying the thief would be with Him that day in paradise or did Jesus tell the thief that day that he would be with Him in paradise? You see if it is the second, and I would argue that it is, your inference breaks down regarding the location of paradise. That is why it's not really sound to form doctrines on inferences rather than facts.

 

[Butch5]

Before time,

That someone defines Heaven as a place for the dead doesn't make it so. Thereis nothing in the Scriptures that teach that the dead go to Heaven. If you areaware of anything stating that please post it. Inferences, while they can becorrect aren't always necessarily correct. Just because one's reward is inHeaven doesn't necessitate that they go there to get it, that is simply aninference and "not" a fact. If one wants to prove that Christians goto Heaven it is necessary that they deal in facts, not inferences. One"must" have facts to prove something.

Regarding paradise, if you look at the LXX you'll find that the Garden of Edenis called paradise in it. Also, Jesus speaks of Paradisein Revelation.

7 Hethat hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To himthat overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in themidst of the paradise of God. (Rev 2:7 KJV)

Notice the Tree of Life is in the midst of the paradise of God. Look at thecreation account and take notice where the Tree of Life is.

9 Andout of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to thesight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden,and the tree of knowledge of good and evil. (Gen 2:9 KJV)

IN verse 9 the Greek word translated "Garden" is παραδείσῳ which meansparadise.

If you look, you'll see that in Rev 2 Jesus was quoting from Ezekiel 47. Ifyou read that chapter it is clear that what Ezekiel is speaking of is on earthas he give the land divisions among the Jews.

You mentioned the resurrection of the body. According to those who claimthe Heavenly destiny, that being that they go to Heaven upon death claim adisembodied consciousness. This consciousness they claim is not dead. The wordGreek word translated resurrection literally means to stand again. It is thebody that dies and stands again, not a disembodied consciousness.

Hi Butch

Resurrection anastasis: a standing up, i.e. a resurrection, a raising up, rising
Original Word: ἀνάστασις,εως, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: anastasis
Phonetic Spelling: (an-as'-tas-is)
Short Definition: a RISING AGAIN, resurrection
Definition: a rising again, resurrection.

Try to follow me here Butch, and your conclusion on the matter.

I am going to assume you believe Isaiah is speaking about the paradise earth, as does Revelation 21: 1-4 in the afterlife. “Resurrection”

Isaiah 65:17 For, lo, I am creating NEW HEAVENS, AND A NEW EARTH, And the former things are not remembered, Nor do they ascend on the heart.

And again I presume you consider Matthew is referring to No marriage in the New Earth

Matthew 22:30 At the RESURRECTION people will NEITHER MARRY NOR BE GIVEN IN MARRIAGE; they will be like the angels in heaven.

If you do believe the above than there will be ILLEGITIMATE CHILDREN born in the New Earth, paradise, is that correct?

Isaiah 65:20 "NEVER AGAIN WILL THERE BE IN IT AN INFANT WHO LIVES BUT A FEW DAYS, or an old man who does not live out his years; he who dies at a hundred will be thought a mere youth; he who fails to reach a hundred will be considered accursed.

Does this create a dilemma? What’s your take!

No, this doesn't create any dilemmas for me. Those who are raised at the resurrection will not marry, however, I don't see anything that is speaking of the nations not marrying.

 

[Butch5]

What is your evidence that this is the same messenger as mentioned in Chapter 1? Also, you mentioned saints, are you referring to men or heavenly beings?

Hi Butch, I'm not quite sure what you're asking as to location determining whether a son of God is called holy, or a saint.

Matthew 27:52 ". .many bodies of the saints which slept arose."
Acts 9:13 ". . thy saints at Jerusalem."
Acts 9:32 ". . the saints which dwelt at Lydda"
Acts 26:10 ". . many of the saints did I shut up in prison.
Romans 1:7 "To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called saints.
Ephesians 3:8 "Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints."

Concerning Jesus' angel (messenger) being the same one of Revelation 19:9, I don't see another that fits the description of Revelation 1:1 that "Signified (to make known) it by his angel (Jesus' messenger) unto his servant John."

Revelation 19:9 repeated: "And he (Jesus' angel or messenger) saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God."

I might also add where John was in spirit at that time. Revelation 4:1. "a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither,

Hi Eugene,

My question about saints refers to the fact that both humans and spiritual being are called saints. The Greek word simply means holy ones.

Regarding Jesus' angel, are saying it is or isn't Jesus?

 

[Eugene]

You said, God said it and you believe it. Ok, my question is, how do you know you understand it properly?

By faith until by precept upon precept and word upon word I am convinced otherwise. Possibly as one needing more meat of the word I am reluctant to believe there is no hell, heaven, lake of fire, antichrist, Satan, or even eternal life; I think I have read or heard opposition to all these, but I have the peace of God, and the joy of my salvation regardless of naysayers.

 

[Butch5]

You said, God said it and you believe it. Ok, my question is, how do you know you understand it properly?

By faith until by precept upon precept and word upon word I am convinced otherwise. Possibly as one needing more meat of the word I am reluctant to believe there is no hell, heaven, lake of fire, antichrist, Satan, or even eternal life; I think I have read or heard opposition to all these, but I have the peace of God, and the joy of my salvation regardless of naysayers.

Yes, but I'm referring to a specific passage of Scripture, that being Luke 16. One has to wonder why Jesus would stop right in the middle of a rebuke of the Pharisees to give His disciples a completely off topic teaching on the afterlife and then return to the Pharisees.

 

[Eugene]

I'm referring to a specific passage of Scripture, that being Luke 16. One has to wonder why Jesus would stop right in the middle of a rebuke of the Pharisees to give His disciples a completely off topic teaching on the afterlife and then return to the Pharisees.

Hi Butch and I just posted a short thread titled Abraham's Bosom at the following link so as to have ready reference to it which we can discuss here if you want.

http://www.christianforums.net/showthread.php?t=52360&p=812847&viewfull=1#post812847

 

[George Muller]

George,

Where are you right now, In Heaven or on earth?

Well it is clear what Gods word says, that a believer is seated in Christ in heaven. Now I know these things are hard to understand "for great is the mystery of godliness" but the bible is true, whether some understand it or can believe it.

Col 1:12 ¶ Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;
20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

Col 1:26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:
27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

Its called the "mystery" Spend your time trying to believe the bible, not trying to disprove the bible and you might be allowed to understand the deeper things of God?

Greorge,

Where are you right now?

The mystery is that the Gentiles would be fellow heirs. We're not talking about that. Regarding proving the Bible, I am. What I am not doing is proving what translators say. You've posted translators who added the word "places". I'm giving you the Greek text which does not say places. You continue to quote a passage that you believe indicates that you are seated in Heaven yet I asked you where you are currently located. I'll rephrase it, as you read are you currently on earth?

What does that have to do with the truth of scripture? Did you "die with Christ" when you where baptised? Have you seen your sins forgiven? Or do you understnad these things to be true by faith in Gods word?

2Co 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

2Co 5:1 ¶ For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:

1Co 2:6 ¶ Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:
7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
MYSTERY, something hidden. That cannot be known by the natural senses.

Do you only believe the parts of the scriptures that you can see or touch with your natural senses? Did you see your sins forgiven? did you see Christ die for your sins? No, you accept the clear and evident testimony of Gods written word.

 

[Butch5]

I'm referring to a specific passage of Scripture, that being Luke 16. One has to wonder why Jesus would stop right in the middle of a rebuke of the Pharisees to give His disciples a completely off topic teaching on the afterlife and then return to the Pharisees.

Hi Butch and I just posted a short thread titled Abraham's Bosom at the following link so as to have ready reference to it which we can discuss here if you want.

http://www.christianforums.net/showthread.php?t=52360&p=812847&viewfull=1#post812847

I have several questions about what you posted but first I'd like to see how you understand that fitting the context of the conversation that Jesus was involved in. How does what you posted there fit the context? Also, how does it relate toe parable before it about the unfaithful steward?