I don't use those forums. I just argue where ever I am.
Christian Forums
This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!
-
Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
-
Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
-
-
Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
-
-
How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
-
Christianity and Luxury
- Thread starter Classik
- Start date
I
Isambard
Guest
This seems to me to be a crucial question. Jesus, I would have thought, should be taken as our example and he certainly appears to have been an ascetic - probably an Essene. As already stated, He also made it clear that a rich man would have great trouble getting into heaven - much the same as a wicked man would. Now we play with words. If a terrible sinner repents on his death bed, many would argue that he will go to heaven despite all his previous sins. Presumably those same people would argue that a rich man who gives away his worldly goods on his death bed can also go to heaven despite his previous riches. That just doesn't make any sense to me. The important thing is how you spend your life.
Anyone who argues that it is OK to have riches and luxury is, in all probability rich themselves.
One of the problems I have had following Christianity is the blatant hypocrisy of rich churches, bishops and individual pastors who preach charity yet live in luxurious splendor.
If I may modify your question a little - should we follow the example of a mega rich pastor or should we follow the example of Jesus?
Deborah13
Member
This seems to me to be a crucial question. Jesus, I would have thought, should be taken as our example and he certainly appears to have been an ascetic - probably an Essene. As already stated, He also made it clear that a rich man would have great trouble getting into heaven - much the same as a wicked man would. Now we play with words. If a terrible sinner repents on his death bed, many would argue that he will go to heaven despite all his previous sins. Presumably those same people would argue that a rich man who gives away his worldly goods on his death bed can also go to heaven despite his previous riches. That just doesn't make any sense to me. The important thing is how you spend your life.
Anyone who argues that it is OK to have riches and luxury is, in all probability rich themselves.
One of the problems I have had following Christianity is the blatant hypocrisy of rich churches, bishops and individual pastors who preach charity yet live in luxurious splendor.
If I may modify your question a little - should we follow the example of a mega rich pastor or should we follow the example of Jesus?
Are you saying that a mega rich pastor could not preach the word of God? Are you saying that a mega rich pastor can not follow the example of Jesus? In one word, "love".
My family is a mega long way from being rich. Yet I have absolutely no problem with a Christian being mega rich. I am not a socialist, everyone does not have to live like I do or be in certain economic range to be a good Christian.
I
Isambard
Guest
I didn't say that a mega rich pastor couldn't preach the word of God - did I? He could even be quite effective if he preached that he is going to have great difficulty getting into heaven because he is rich and the congregation shouldn't follow his example.
The 'example of Jesus' is far more than the one word 'love' but I'm sure you know that better than I do really. You personally may not have a problem with a Christian being mega rich but Jesus made it perfectly clear that He did. So who should you follow? A mega rich pastor or Jesus?
Deborah13
Member
Where did Jesus say that?
imo....
Jesus did not say, that a believer who is rich will have trouble getting into heaven.
He said that it would be hard for a rich man to become a believer.
iLOVE
Member
The scriptures says, " Whatever is good and perfect comes down to us from God our Father, who created all the lights in the heavens. He never changes or casts a shifting shadow." James 1:17 NLT
But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you. Matthew 6:33 KJV
I
Isambard
Guest
Matthew 19:23 'Then Jesus said to his disciples, "Truly I tell you, it is hard for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of heaven".24 "Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God." 30 "But many who are first will be last, and many who are last will be first".[NIV]
Seems pretty clear to me.
In answer to a believer who was already rich: Matthew 19:21 'Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me." i.e. follow me without riches.
Last edited by a moderator:
I
Isambard
Guest
I'm not sure what point you are making but do remember that those words follow on from Matthew 6:31 "So do not worry, saying, 'What shall we eat?' or 'What shall we drink?' or 'What shall we wear?" [NIV]
The words "all these things that shall be added unto you" clearly refers to food, drink & clothes - not riches.
Deborah13
Member
So you think that the young rich man was a believer.
I don't think he was a believer. He was obviously Jewish and had obeyed the Law of Moses. And when he was challenged to give up what he had to follow Christ, he turned away. His love of riches was too great.
Because Jesus challenged this rich man to prove himself in the area that Jesus knew was his stumbling block does not mean that Jesus is saying that a believer should not be rich? I don't think so.
So why do you think Jesus said it is HARD for a rich man to enter heaven (be saved)? Is it because he is rich or is it because of a man's attitude?
Is Jesus concerned with where the riches of this world are or where and who a person's heart is/with?
iLOVE
Member
A natural man will not understand spiritual things (1 Corinthians 2:14). The natural man only understands things with his natural thinking.
Hi, Deborah13.
That was my take on the young rich man as well. He was raised Jewish, followed the law and asked Jesus what was preventing him from entering the Kingdom of heaven. But it might be better for me to check my assumptions directly.
So there we have it. The young man knew that he was lacking something but needed help to understand what it was he still needed. He asked the Master Instructor and heard, “If you would be perfect, go, sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me.”
Now the question arises, why did the instruction make the rich young man sad? It sounds like he was just told what to do in order to gain eternal salvation. Could it be that he trusted too much in wealth and that his riches had given him assurance of his good choices? Many rich do fail to understand that godliness is not gain. We may not allow ourselves to measure our worth by the visible things. That is not to say that blessings from God in the form of riches may not be accepted with thanks, but that we should remember to give thanks where it is due - going to God with a thankful heart is needed. Congratulating ourselves for our own good works isn't. In this case, it is counter-productive.
What then? Is it possible for a rich man to enter Heaven? It is, but not without great difficulty. Blessed are the poor in spirit. God is not a respecter of persons and this fact includes not giving respect simply because one is poor. Being poor is no more a qualifier for entry to heaven than being rich. God is a God of hearts, as you know.
~Sparrow
I would also like to point out that if you have a roof over your head, and if you know what you'll have for dinner tonight, and if you're connected to the internet -- then you are (most likely) in the top 10% of the richest people in the world. This word "rich" is relative and does not apply only to those who have obscene riches.
Who oppress the poor? There is a generation who sharpen their teeth like swords to consume the poor from the face of the earth (my paraphrase of Proverbs 30:14). Them guys? God will judge according to their hearts as seen by their actions.
~SH
That was my take on the young rich man as well. He was raised Jewish, followed the law and asked Jesus what was preventing him from entering the Kingdom of heaven. But it might be better for me to check my assumptions directly.
So there we have it. The young man knew that he was lacking something but needed help to understand what it was he still needed. He asked the Master Instructor and heard, “If you would be perfect, go, sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me.”
Now the question arises, why did the instruction make the rich young man sad? It sounds like he was just told what to do in order to gain eternal salvation. Could it be that he trusted too much in wealth and that his riches had given him assurance of his good choices? Many rich do fail to understand that godliness is not gain. We may not allow ourselves to measure our worth by the visible things. That is not to say that blessings from God in the form of riches may not be accepted with thanks, but that we should remember to give thanks where it is due - going to God with a thankful heart is needed. Congratulating ourselves for our own good works isn't. In this case, it is counter-productive.
What then? Is it possible for a rich man to enter Heaven? It is, but not without great difficulty. Blessed are the poor in spirit. God is not a respecter of persons and this fact includes not giving respect simply because one is poor. Being poor is no more a qualifier for entry to heaven than being rich. God is a God of hearts, as you know.
~Sparrow
I would also like to point out that if you have a roof over your head, and if you know what you'll have for dinner tonight, and if you're connected to the internet -- then you are (most likely) in the top 10% of the richest people in the world. This word "rich" is relative and does not apply only to those who have obscene riches.
Who oppress the poor? There is a generation who sharpen their teeth like swords to consume the poor from the face of the earth (my paraphrase of Proverbs 30:14). Them guys? God will judge according to their hearts as seen by their actions.
~SH
Hi Isambard. I think you misunderstand what Jesus is teaching. He's not preaching against wealth. He's preaching against idolatry. For most people, we idolize wealth. We seek after it every day. We search for it, we steal it when we can. We gamble for it even to the point of risking our lives and the lives of our loved ones. We often put the pursuit of wealth far above anything else in our lives.
That is what Jesus was preaching against. And that is why it is so hard for a rich person to enter the kingdom of heaven. It is because the rich are usually so attached to their riches they are unable to give it up and surrender the idol in favor of God.
You quoted Matthew 19. Read the verses that led up to verse 24. Remember what Jesus told him? He told him to give up his riches and follow Him but the rich young ruler couldn't do it. He thought he was so righteous by his deeds but idolized his wealth above Jesus. He didn't surrender ALL. Notice in verse 24 Jesus didn't say it is impossible for the rich to enter the kingdom of God. He said is is extremely difficult because of our desire for our wealth.
Do you think based on your reasoning that if it is so difficult for the rich to get to heaven it is therefore very easy for the poor to get to heaven? I don't think it is any better because the poor idolize wealth too They just failed to achieve it. They often worry every day about money and riches. The fact that they don't have it doesn't make it any less of an idol.
5 And the apostles said to the Lord, “Increase our faith.”
6 So the Lord said, “If you have faith as a mustard seed, you can say to this mulberry tree, ‘Be pulled up by the roots and be planted in the sea,’ and it would obey you.
7 And which of you, having a servant plowing or tending sheep, will say to him when he has come in from the field, ‘Come at once and sit down to eat?’
8 But will he not rather say to him, ‘Prepare something for my supper, and gird yourself and serve me till I have eaten and drunk, and afterward you will eat and drink?’
9 Does he thank that servant because he did the things that were commanded him? I think not.
10 So likewise you, when you have done all those things which you are commanded, say, ‘We are unprofitable servants. We have done what was our duty to do.’”
What about Abram, Job, David, Solomon? There are times when God chooses to bless righteous persons with wealth and even great wealth. The real question is, where is your heart, who do you trust, where does your loyalty lie, and in whom or what do you place your FAITH?
Think about this. It is also possible that worrying about other peoples' wealth and what they do with it in itself can become an idol by taking precedence above one's faith in God. Put your eyes upon Jesus and let him take control. Do we trust our riches or do we trust in the one that can save us.....Jesus?!!!
That is what Jesus was preaching against. And that is why it is so hard for a rich person to enter the kingdom of heaven. It is because the rich are usually so attached to their riches they are unable to give it up and surrender the idol in favor of God.
You quoted Matthew 19. Read the verses that led up to verse 24. Remember what Jesus told him? He told him to give up his riches and follow Him but the rich young ruler couldn't do it. He thought he was so righteous by his deeds but idolized his wealth above Jesus. He didn't surrender ALL. Notice in verse 24 Jesus didn't say it is impossible for the rich to enter the kingdom of God. He said is is extremely difficult because of our desire for our wealth.
Do you think based on your reasoning that if it is so difficult for the rich to get to heaven it is therefore very easy for the poor to get to heaven? I don't think it is any better because the poor idolize wealth too They just failed to achieve it. They often worry every day about money and riches. The fact that they don't have it doesn't make it any less of an idol.
5 And the apostles said to the Lord, “Increase our faith.”
6 So the Lord said, “If you have faith as a mustard seed, you can say to this mulberry tree, ‘Be pulled up by the roots and be planted in the sea,’ and it would obey you.
7 And which of you, having a servant plowing or tending sheep, will say to him when he has come in from the field, ‘Come at once and sit down to eat?’
8 But will he not rather say to him, ‘Prepare something for my supper, and gird yourself and serve me till I have eaten and drunk, and afterward you will eat and drink?’
9 Does he thank that servant because he did the things that were commanded him? I think not.
10 So likewise you, when you have done all those things which you are commanded, say, ‘We are unprofitable servants. We have done what was our duty to do.’”
What about Abram, Job, David, Solomon? There are times when God chooses to bless righteous persons with wealth and even great wealth. The real question is, where is your heart, who do you trust, where does your loyalty lie, and in whom or what do you place your FAITH?
Think about this. It is also possible that worrying about other peoples' wealth and what they do with it in itself can become an idol by taking precedence above one's faith in God. Put your eyes upon Jesus and let him take control. Do we trust our riches or do we trust in the one that can save us.....Jesus?!!!
Last edited:
Deborah13
Member
Edward
2024 Supporter
I think it is easier for a poor man top enter heaven than a rich man because the rich do not look to God for their sustenance. I am living in poverty and scraping every month to meet the bills. I look to the Lord without worry. I sit in poverty, growing rich in the Lord.
I do not want to be rich, nor do I want poverty. When I get ahead, pride swells.
I do not want to be rich, nor do I want poverty. When I get ahead, pride swells.
jay55
Member
Oh ya, these guys drive me crazy too. They should be locked up. Guess we just gotta know that they will get their due some day. Must make God very angry that they are stealing from people under his name - watch out false teachers, my guess is that you will someday suffer the wrath of God.
I
Isambard
Guest
I'm relieved to see that at least some people here don't twist Jesus' words to suit themselves. Apart from, "They should be locked up", I don't see how anyone who professes to follow Christ can disagree with you.
I really don't understand how any intelligent person can be be taken in by the blatant showmanship of those charlatans but obviously many thousands of Americans are. It all seems very strange to my British eyes. We did have a brief period of 'Toronto Blessings' and instant conversions over here but we very soon realised how silly that sort of manipulation is. Atheist Derren Brown does it far better than any minister I have ever seen - and then he explains how he did it. The ministers, on the other hand, just pretend that it is the hand of God rather than deliberate neuro-linguistic programming etc. Tricking the vulnerable like that is truly disgusting.
To those of you who interpret the Bible with sophism to suit your own wishes, you must live with your own consciences. Jesus' words are perfectly clear, twisting them to suit yourselves does not change that clear meaning. We should either accept them or admit that we simply don't want to follow them.
Yes, 'rich' is indeed a relative term. However, we need to function in the society we live in and if you live somewhere where you need a car, a heated house, electricity and a computer etc, I see nothing particularly wrong with that. It makes me feel guilty though every time I travel and see just how terribly poor many people are. As we become more globalised, we should obviously become more global about who our 'neighbours' are. Should I sell my £600,000 house, live in a cheap apartment and give the surplus money to the starving poor? Probably yes, but I freely admit that I don't want to so I make up excuses to myself why I can't do it. I enjoy my worldly goods and my relative luxury. We all KNOW there are people starving to death every day. I could have saved some of those lives - but I didn't. That alone should make it hard for me to get into heaven, and the same applies to most people posting here. Honestly now, what do you think Jesus would like people in my position to do? What would Jesus like you to do with your riches?
How many lives could the mega rich pastors save?
I
Isambard
Guest
Whoops, I have messed up the appearance of that post - sorry, I don't know how to fix it.