Christians? Using self-defense and Guns?

[th1b.taylor]

Nothing changed at the cross?

God didn't.

 

[tobewell]

Scripture writes that Christ freely gave Himself up because it was the will of His Father, in the fullness of time.

Time also was that the Trinity destroyed or had Israel destroy cities due to the actions and inactions of people within them.

Self protection of human life is a Christian act, but the protective reaction must balance the need for mercy with an aggressive force.

Self protection must be justified with mercy and hope. If an evil aggressor learns nothing from a confrontation with a Chrisitian and advances again, the Christian is justified in actions that protect life and property.

 

[Butch5]

DUDE!
You are teaching, you have admitted that. I have triked very hard to remain away from personal attacks because it is a lawyers trick, I hate. You are teaching a false doctrine and if you find that a personal attack you need to teach me how to say that truth without offense.

When I teach, I do not, generally, need my Bible to be opened because I do my best to surrender to the will of the Holy Spirit, that He might lead. Even you are not going to read the 39 pages you want the world to wade through to maake your own case from your own words... do you honestly not know what you have written?

If you consider the comparison of the false doctrine you teach to the false doctrine of Jim Jones and the Kool Aide and to the burn the house down teaching of the Waco Wacko. NO! I spoke not of you, I alluded to your doctrine, even I, an Eighth Grade Graduate know that much. Ad homonym is an attack to the person. I admit it might have hurt your feelings but this forum is not here to ease our insecurities, those are, best, addressed at the Shrinks office. We even have a beautiful lass here that will take your money and allow you to come to her office for that.

We, or at least I am, discussing biblical theology. I often spend 15 minutes searching Google for Scripture Address' for comments on the Bible. I suspect that if your thesis is Bible based, you can do the same thing. Nobody is going to read your thesis, just prove your case and get off of the excuse train... man up!

I'm not sure what false doctrine you're referring to since all I've said is that the early church wouldn't use violence and I've given ample proof of that. I'm not sure why you refuse to look at the paper, If you're not will to click a link to read it, I seriously doubt that you'd read it here. If you're only interested in Scriptural ping pong you might as well move on.

You still have not answered my question, you said you follow Jesus, who did He harm?

 

[Butch5]

Like any controversial subjects, there is a balance.

If you are sent by the Lord to preach the Gospel and Demonstrate His power and authority to the nations, and raise up churches, then most likely you are called to be a martyr.

To the average person who is called to take care of his family and community then there is a different obligation.

8But if anyone does not provide for his own, and especially for those of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever. 1 Timothy 5:8

Provide here carries the meaning of provision as well as prepare in advance.

Protecting our families, as well as providing for them is a calling and mandate from God.


JLB

Could you show me something in Scripture that tells us that killing someone of the use of self defense is mandated?

 

[th1b.taylor]

I'm not sure what false doctrine you're referring to since all I've said is that the early church wouldn't use violence and I've given ample proof of that. I'm not sure why you refuse to look at the paper, If you're not will to click a link to read it, I seriously doubt that you'd read it here. If you're only interested in Scriptural ping pong you might as well move on.

You still have not answered my question, you said you follow Jesus, who did He harm?

Okay, I dispise rhetorical triva but He, in that body was on a mission for the Father, just as He was during the first four thousand years, the Bible time period before the Commentary was inspired.

The other matter, No! You have provided me with the creeds and the creeds are not inspired nore are they any indication of what an early Christian did or did not do. The creeds are not the history of the Church. The creeds are the dreams men trying to follow God wrote ecause they had not received the enlightenment God has given in the past two thousand years of the connection between the Bible, the Christian Bible Old Testament, and the God inspired Life Application Commentary, the Christian Bible's New Testament.

The creeds have nothing to do with day to day life as it was nor as it is.

 

[Butch5]

My method of reasoning is simply to stop a crime if one is able.

I'm talking about your line of argumentation.

I've already explained the double edged sword ain't no toothpick. It was the most lethal weapons of the time. It's what the Roman soldiers used in battle, and they were VERY successful in battle. They could carve up an enemy trying to swing a broad sword in no time.

Yes, you have, yet I've not seen it anywhere else.

You are only assuming what Jesus meant when He told them to buy a sword. Let's not do that. By the very nature of the type of sword He mentioned, He sure didn't have domestic intentions for a machira.

I'm not the one assuming, He said nothing about the use of the knife/sword. However, by quoting the passage your argument assumes it's use.

Irrelevant. But, no, I wouldn't.

Actually, it’s quite relevant and shows the double standard in your position.

Oh, for heaven's sake. Please do some simple research on the Roman machira and learn what an effective fighting weapon it was. Far superior to any other sword used by Rome's enemies.

I have, and as I said, I see nothing like what you suggest.

This is just laughable.

So then you agree, correct?

Your attempt to diminish a machira to that of a pocket knife is amazingly silly.



I'll tell you the reason Jesus told them to buy a machira. The countryside was full of bandits. Paul even noted as much in 2 Cor 11:26 (NIV).

I’ve already stated what it is.

He was making the point of violence. Defending Jesus wasn't appropriate, and Peter was just being violent. That was the point. Jesus wasn't getting all disarmament on them, as you seem to want to believe.

Speculation

The Bible is clear enough. He used a knife. Not a machira.

It’s quite clear, he did.


BGT Genesis 22:6 ἔλαβεν δὲ Αβρααμ τὰ ξύλα τῆς ὁλοκαρπώσεως καὶ ἐπέθηκεν Ισαακ τῷ υἱῷ αὐτοῦ ἔλαβεν δὲ καὶ τὸ πῦρ μετὰ χεῖρα καὶ τὴν μάχαιραν καὶ ἐπορεύθησαν οἱ δύο ἅμα (Gen 22:6 BGT)

For your information, the OT was written in Hebrew, and the NT was written in Greek. So, no, it isn't the "same word". Not even close.

Uh, yeah, it is the same word, look at the Septuagint.

Jesus had already told them that He must die. The fact that none of them seemed to grasp that is a different issue. And, yes, Peter WAS trying to thwart God's plan. It was NOT God's plan to defend Jesus and rescue Him from the mob. Where have you been????

You didn’t answer the question; I’ll have to assume you’re speculating.

What you can't wriggle your way out of is the FACT that Jesus told His disciples to sell a garment to buy a highly effective fighting weapon.

Well, so far you’re the only one that I’ve seen who considers it a highly effective fighting weapon.

 

[Butch5]

Okay, I dispise rhetorical triva but He, in that body was on a mission for the Father, just as He was during the first four thousand years, the Bible time period before the Commentary was inspired.

The other matter, No! You have provided me with the creeds and the creeds are not inspired nore are they any indication of what an early Christian did or did not do. The creeds are not the history of the Church. The creeds are the dreams men trying to follow God wrote ecause they had not received the enlightenment God has given in the past two thousand years of the connection between the Bible, the Christian Bible Old Testament, and the God inspired Life Application Commentary, the Christian Bible's New Testament.

The creeds have nothing to do with day to day life as it was nor as it is.

Sorry dude, I didn't give you any creeds. I gave you quotes from individual writers. However, you didn't answer my question, what false teaching are you referring to.

Regarding Jesus, who did He harm?

 

[th1b.taylor]

Sorry dude, I didn't give you any creeds. I gave you quotes from individual writers. However, you didn't answer my question, what false teaching are you referring to.

Regarding Jesus, who did He harm?

Okay,
This might be MS, I need to go back and read, sorry.

 

[LovethroughDove]

God didn't.

You say that God didn't change. If nothing changed, then you are standing in front of a Holy God.....with the laws in your hands.

Jesus came in the flesh and was tempted, as we are tempted and can relate to your temptations....That has changed.

 

[th1b.taylor]

Sorry dude, I didn't give you any creeds. I gave you quotes from individual writers. However, you didn't answer my question, what false teaching are you referring to.

Regarding Jesus, who did He harm?

You're right and you're wrong, I am leaning toward wrong and trying to be cute. I make no secret of the truth that I might die at any time because of some complication from the MS and you are right because my memory slipped and you took the opportunity to glorify thyself? You have given me quotes and a thesis I have refused to equate with the scriptures and I will, though is must be becoming rhetorical, make your case for the fallacy you preach.

You will be viewed in a much brighter light if you do not try to make the old man in the final stage of MS look like a fool. I should be approacing better than ninty leasons on my brain by this time. They have not wanted to know since the count went past sixty. ut as I've said, you'll have no credibility until you defend your position and make your case from the scriptures, otherwise, it is false.

 

[Gary]

Is it a sin to defend oneself?

 

[th1b.taylor]

You say that God didn't change. If nothing changed, then you are standing in front of a Holy God.....with the laws in your hands.

Jesus came in the flesh and was tempted, as we are tempted and can relate to your temptations....That has changed.

No, wrong! The Time/Space Continuum you, I and all flesh live in means nothing to God. God is, right now, here in the present and at the same time God is in the past and He is in the Future. Time has no restraint on God. This is how God's Will can be that all should come to repentance and be saved though He has recorded, in the Book of Life those that turn to Him and this is how He did this before He began to create.

I think I see how you were lost in this false dichotomy. You need to do the Nave's Topical studies on God and learn more about Him.

 

[LovethroughDove]

No, wrong! The Time/Space Continuum you, I and all flesh live in means nothing to God.

Huh? John 1:14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

 

[LovethroughDove]

Is it a sin to defend oneself?

James 4:17 Anyone, then, who knows the good he ought to do and doesn't do it, sins.

I don't know how you can get around? Matthew 5:39 But I tell you, Do not resist and evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also.

 

[Gary]

James 4:17 Anyone, then, who knows the good he ought to do and doesn't do it, sins.

I don't know how you can get around? Matthew 5:39 But I tell you, Do not resist and evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also.

Is it a sin to defend oneself?
.

 

[Gary]

What about others? Is it a sin to defend others?

 

[LovethroughDove]

Is it a sin to defend oneself?
.

I can't answer that for "you" Gary. Only myself. Yes it is a sin for me.

 

[LovethroughDove]

What about others? Is it a sin to defend others?

Killing to save others for me, Yes. Defending others in some other way. Maybe.

 

[Gary]

Killing to save others for me, Yes. Defending others in some other way. Maybe.

I've defended myself and others many times and to date, I haven't killed anyone.

.

 

[Gary]

I can't answer that for "you" Gary. Only myself. Yes it is a sin for me.

So this is a personal conviction for you. Nothing in the Word of God points to personal defense as something sinful.

Is my understanding of this correct?
.