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Church Of England Allows Female Bishops

allenwynne said:
Paul taught the different gifts, some were pastors, some were teachers.
Pastors could teach and preach but they were to oversee the flock.
A noble task indeed.
But were the Levites ever given this task or were they to always point towards God?
"The Lord is my shepherd"...

I ask this because I don't see it, I may be wrong.
Click to expand...

I'm honestly not sure what you are looking for.
I see pastors living with the people and teaching them God Word.
I see rabbis doing the same today.
I see levites doing the same then, rabbis by a different name.

When one lives with the people (their flock) teaching God's Word they are watching over them. They will naturally be drawn into the peoples lives. Just like today the people turn to their pastor or rabbi for all kinds of help, with marriages, children, decision making of all kinds. The pastor or rabbi will tell them when their behaviors are out of line with God's Word (he will judge) which the levites did as well but even on a larger scale because there was not a separate government entity to do that.

There is another scripture that I think supports this view of how levites position compares to a pastors. It instructs the people not to forget to care for the poor, the widow, and the levite that live among them (in their cities, area). This says to me that the 9% of the tithe that was given to the Levites as a group and shared among them, was not always enough to sustain them. Somewhere there is a scripture but I can't remember where, that allows the levite to have outside work to make other subsistence besides what they receive from the people.
There were actually two groups of from the tribe of Levi. The regular levites, descendants of two of Levi's sons (lived with the people) and the Levites who were priests of the temple. They were a separate group that were descendents of Levi's third son. Today I believe these are called the Kohan. jasonc may correct me on this but I think that's correct?

So to bring this around to the statement that started this, "that we are the Levites" the kings and priests, I think they were correct in this statement.
When Paul tells the church at Corinth to turn the guy over to satan and says don't you know you will judge...." he wasn't talking to A pastor, he was talking to the whole church, all the people. For the sake of order the people choose people to administer the different functions in the church. Pastors, elders, financial admin., etc. But all the people are responsible for all the things needed by the church as a whole.

Sorry for the very long post everyone, I wish I knew how to not be so wordy.
 
Deborah13 said:
I'm honestly not sure what you are looking for.
I see pastors living with the people and teaching them God Word.
I see rabbis doing the same today.
I see levites doing the same then, rabbis by a different name.

When one lives with the people (their flock) teaching God's Word they are watching over them. They will naturally be drawn into the peoples lives. Just like today the people turn to their pastor or rabbi for all kinds of help, with marriages, children, decision making of all kinds. The pastor or rabbi will tell them when their behaviors are out of line with God's Word (he will judge) which the levites did as well but even on a larger scale because there was not a separate government entity to do that.

There is another scripture that I think supports this view of how levites position compares to a pastors. It instructs the people not to forget to care for the poor, the widow, and the levite that live among them (in their cities, area). This says to me that the 9% of the tithe that was given to the Levites as a group and shared among them, was not always enough to sustain them. Somewhere there is a scripture but I can't remember where, that allows the levite to have outside work to make other subsistence besides what they receive from the people.
There were actually two groups of from the tribe of Levi. The regular levites, descendants of two of Levi's sons (lived with the people) and the Levites who were priests of the temple. They were a separate group that were descendents of Levi's third son. Today I believe these are called the Kohan. jasonc may correct me on this but I think that's correct?

So to bring this around to the statement that started this, "that we are the Levites" the kings and priests, I think they were correct in this statement.
When Paul tells the church at Corinth to turn the guy over to satan and says don't you know you will judge...." he wasn't talking to A pastor, he was talking to the whole church, all the people. For the sake of order the people choose people to administer the different functions in the church. Pastors, elders, financial admin., etc. But all the people are responsible for all the things needed by the church as a whole.

Sorry for the very long post everyone, I wish I knew how to not be so wordy.
Click to expand...
What?
You say something?

No, seriously, I think the problem here is we have a different understanding as to what a pastor is or what a pastor should be.
I see pastors as shepherds of the flock.
They are also teachers.
I see elders as being qualified to be shepherds of the flock.
But I don't see pastor as being a qualification in itself to be an elder.

It wasn't until Calvin that this pyramid hierarchy came into existence that we have today.
 
allenwynne said:
What?
You say something?

No, seriously, I think the problem here is we have a different understanding as to what a pastor is or what a pastor should be.
I see pastors as shepherds of the flock.
They are also teachers.
I see elders as being qualified to be shepherds of the flock.
But I don't see pastor as being a qualification in itself to be an elder.

It wasn't until Calvin that this pyramid hierarchy came into existence that we have today.
Click to expand...

Ah, now I see what your point is.
You may be very correct in that, I'll have to think on it.
This is very different than the statement about us being kings and priests and yet I can see how it may tie in to your thoughts.
There isn't a description of a pastor directly is there?
 
Deborah13 said:
Ah, now I see what your point is.
You may be very correct in that, I'll have to think on it.
This is very different than the statement about us being kings and priests and yet I can see how it may tie in to your thoughts.
There isn't a description of a pastor directly is there?
Click to expand...
No, but the word used for pastor is translated almost every time to shepherd.
 
Deborah13 said:
I'm honestly not sure what you are looking for.
I see pastors living with the people and teaching them God Word.
I see rabbis doing the same today.
I see levites doing the same then, rabbis by a different name.

When one lives with the people (their flock) teaching God's Word they are watching over them. They will naturally be drawn into the peoples lives. Just like today the people turn to their pastor or rabbi for all kinds of help, with marriages, children, decision making of all kinds. The pastor or rabbi will tell them when their behaviors are out of line with God's Word (he will judge) which the levites did as well but even on a larger scale because there was not a separate government entity to do that.

There is another scripture that I think supports this view of how levites position compares to a pastors. It instructs the people not to forget to care for the poor, the widow, and the levite that live among them (in their cities, area). This says to me that the 9% of the tithe that was given to the Levites as a group and shared among them, was not always enough to sustain them. Somewhere there is a scripture but I can't remember where, that allows the levite to have outside work to make other subsistence besides what they receive from the people.
There were actually two groups of from the tribe of Levi. The regular levites, descendants of two of Levi's sons (lived with the people) and the Levites who were priests of the temple. They were a separate group that were descendents of Levi's third son. Today I believe these are called the Kohan. jasonc may correct me on this but I think that's correct?

So to bring this around to the statement that started this, "that we are the Levites" the kings and priests, I think they were correct in this statement.
When Paul tells the church at Corinth to turn the guy over to satan and says don't you know you will judge...." he wasn't talking to A pastor, he was talking to the whole church, all the people. For the sake of order the people choose people to administer the different functions in the church. Pastors, elders, financial admin., etc. But all the people are responsible for all the things needed by the church as a whole.

Sorry for the very long post everyone, I wish I knew how to not be so wordy.
Click to expand...
the sons of Kohen. I will have read up on that. stovebolts would be the best to ask. I just talked to him but rather then talk about here I just let him lead the conversation since he was well returning from what I told you guys about.
 
The Greek word poimen is translates as “shepherd” 17 times in the New Testament; below are its various uses:

4 times it is used of literal shepherds caring for literal sheep;

8 times it refers to Jesus as the Great Shepherd of the church;

4 times it refers to leadership of true believers, as either true or false leaders;

1 time it is used of an office in the church. This is in Ephesians 4:11.
 
jasonc said:
the sons of Kohen. I will have read up on that. stovebolts would be the best to ask. I just talked to him but rather then talk about here I just let him lead the conversation since he was well returning from what I told you guys about.
Click to expand...

Here's an interesting link. I don't know that it is accurate but does include scripture to verify.
http://www.bible.ca/archeology/arch...thar-eli-sadducees-annas-caiaphas-ananias.htm

allenwynne said:
The Greek word poimen is translates as “shepherd” 17 times in the New Testament; below are its various uses:

4 times it is used of literal shepherds caring for literal sheep;

8 times it refers to Jesus as the Great Shepherd of the church;

4 times it refers to leadership of true believers, as either true or false leaders;

1 time it is used of an office in the church. This is in Ephesians 4:11.
Click to expand...

YLT
Eph 4:11 and He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as proclaimers of good news, and some as shepherds and teachers,

So shepherds and teachers are the same position.
 
Deborah13 said:
Here's an interesting link. I don't know that it is accurate but does include scripture to verify.
http://www.bible.ca/archeology/arch...thar-eli-sadducees-annas-caiaphas-ananias.htm



YLT
Eph 4:11 and He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as proclaimers of good news, and some as shepherds and teachers,

So shepherds and teachers are the same position.
Click to expand...
where I disagree is that the Pharisees whom knew the law weren't chumps. paul being under gammaliel whom was under hillel. hillel read up on him. paul very much is a rabbi in his methods. the sadducees denied the resurrection that link would have us believe that was a correct teaching. it cant be. i don't think they are saying that but it implies it.
 
I have no problem with women Bishops in the CoE.
Jesus traveled with women among his number. And women attended him at the cross.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
jasonc said:
where I disagree is that the Pharisees whom knew the law weren't chumps. paul being under gammaliel whom was under hillel. hillel read up on him. paul very much is a rabbi in his methods. the sadducees denied the resurrection that link would have us believe that was a correct teaching. it cant be. i don't think they are saying that but it implies it.
Click to expand...

Considering who they list as sadducees, I don't think it implies they were correct in all their teachings.
The pharisees added to the Law of Moses? Were the pharisees an offshoot of the sadducees?
Didn't Jesus side with the sadducees against the pharisees when it came to divorce?
 
Jesus loved the women of the Bible.Look at martha and Mary.Hannah,Esther,Ruth and Rebekah to name a few.God's word says that women can not head the Church and I can respect that.
 
Deborah13 said:
Considering who they list as sadducees, I don't think it implies they were correct in all their teachings.
The pharisees added to the Law of Moses? Were the pharisees an offshoot of the sadducees?
Didn't Jesus side with the sadducees against the pharisees when it came to divorce?
Click to expand...
no, he sided with shimei a Pharisee.
 
allenwynne said:
Are priests pastors of flocks or are they intercessors?
Was the Levitical priesthood ever charged with pastoring flocks?
Click to expand...

Really? Are we not all "witnesses" ?

Pastor of flocks? Do you need someone to lead you? (smile) Jesus is our High Priest. We are all able to read what is written. Are you stating that a female is incapable of being a administrator or a teacher? Don't we all use what is already written? I think a church body is able to select leaders from the whole body of Christ. At the resurrection there is no marriage we will be like the angels of God. (equality) And currently all are one in Christ Jesus.

If one wants to be the greatest according to what is written (smile) they must become the least.

R.
 
Randy said:
Really? Are we not all "witnesses" ?

Pastor of flocks? Do you need someone to lead you? (smile) Jesus is our High Priest. We are all able to read what is written. Are you stating that a female is incapable of being a administrator or a teacher? Don't we all use what is already written? I think a church body is able to select leaders from the whole body of Christ. At the resurrection there is no marriage we will be like the angels of God. (equality) And currently all are one in Christ Jesus.

If one wants to be the greatest according to what is written (smile) they must become the least.

R.
Click to expand...
I don't want you to think that I'm against women being leaders, because I am not.
They can be teachers.
They can evangelize.
They can be missionaries.
But as missionaries, their husbands will lead the flock as they teach and serve.
As you say, "Don't we all use what is already written"?
I agree.
Where in the Bible is our example of women being shepherds of men?
I'm not saying I'm right, I'm saying show me.
 
Deborah13 said:
So it was two different schools of thought among the Pharisees. Thanks
Click to expand...
Yes. Paul said that women can not lead in the churches he founded.

Jesus never said a word about that while here in his earthly ministry. In fact, women attended Jesus in his ministry and at the last supper. And to them he said this as he said to his apostles. "All authority has been given to me in heaven and on earth. You are to go and make followers of all peoples. You are to baptise them in the name of the Father and the son and the holy spirit. Teach them to observe everything I commanded. I'll be with you day in and day out, as you'll see, so long as this world continues its course." (Mt 28: 18-20)

After Jesus returned to the father, the women that had been in his company spread the good news.
The Pharisee however had a wholly different view of women than did Jesus.

The inconsistency in Paul espousing sexism in one scripture is that he wrote his letter to the church of Colossae to say this.
Colossians 3:11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.

 
allenwynne said:
I don't want you to think that I'm against women being leaders, because I am not.
They can be teachers.
They can evangelize.
They can be missionaries.
But as missionaries, their husbands will lead the flock as they teach and serve.
As you say, "Don't we all use what is already written"?
I agree.
Where in the Bible is our example of women being shepherds of men?
I'm not saying I'm right, I'm saying show me.
Click to expand...

What does that have to do with today? I don't dispute Paul would not choose women as bishops or whatever title you want to state. (Pastor) I think you can find women in ministry and leaders in all walks of life. So you state females can do all things but be a Pastor? I think better yet show me the command from the Lord that states its forbidden. If so then any place of leadership over men would be a sin. I don't think that is the case. If Jesus issued such a command I think He would tell those He loves so that they would not sin. What is lawful then is not seen by me in terms of error. I think the Lord leaves it up to the church to choose their own leaders. Some churches allow that selection to be both male or female. Others are not able to accept that but that doesn't make it a sin.
 
Genesis Owl said:
The inconsistency in Paul espousing sexism in one scripture is that he wrote his letter to the church of Colossae to say this.
Colossians 3:11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.
Click to expand...
Actually, the inconsistency is in how you apply the differences in the sexes within the Body of Christ.

In salvation itself there is no difference between any of us whatsoever. But in regard to giftings, calling, and purpose there is a difference. Paul explains that here:

4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all."

7 But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ's gift.
11 And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers, 12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ..."

(Ephesians 4:4-7,11-12 NASB)

See it? There is absolutely no difference or exception among us when it comes to being in, and belonging to Christ in salvation. But within the one Body of Christ there is difference and exception in regard to gifting and ministry. And we know from the rest of Paul's teaching that woman are simply not among those who receive the particular calling to teach and have authority over men. They can do lots of things, but they simply are not called by God to be leaders and teachers over men.
 
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