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Church Throughout Revelations

1pet2_9 said:
I tried to interpret the 1000 years as symbolic of Heaven, but Revelation 20:7 pretty specifically says, "After the thousand years are ended." You can't have something happen after Heaven. So while the number 1000 may be figurative--and frankly I think it is--the Millennium cannot be symbolic of the afterlife.

A key may be in a fad going on in the political climate John was living in when he wrote it. Even though John himself was imprisoned by Rome, there was this concept of the Pax Romana, or Pax Millennium. Octavius and Mark Antony had gone to war over the Roman throne not long before Christ. Pax Romana was the rallying cry espoused by Octavius' forces: or "Roman peace". They wanted to spread the "Good News" to all of Rome, that there will be 1000 years of peace from here on out, with Octavius as our emperor. Hence the term "Good News" as well (which we borrowed from to mean something else today). That Pax Romana ended up lasting more like 200 years, and John probably didn't even perceive it as started yet, but that's the idea. John was borrowing from a Roman fad of his time, and adapted it to apply to Christianity--the same way we did "the Good News". John, of course, never intended us to be the reader of Revelation--he wrote it to the seven churches of his day, who would have known what he meant. We just take what he wrote to them and apply it to our own lives.
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The Millennium is not symbolic of the afterlife as the after life will be in the New Jerusalem after this present heaven and earth pass away and the New Jerusalem ushered down from heaven where we will be with the Lord forever after. That does not happen until after God's great White throne judgement and Satan being cast into the lake of fire, plus all who have followed after the beast and its false prophet Rev Chapter 20-21.

You can't just read Rev 20:7 without reading the full context of verses 7-10 as this is speaking about the defeat of Satan. This happens before the New Jerusalem is ushered down.

Between the binding of Satan and being loosed scripture says 1000 years, but many parts of Revelation are symbolic in what John was shown in His visions. I see 1000 years only being a figurative numbering as I can't see God waiting a literal 1000 years after we are caught up to Christ in the air before casting Satan into the lake of fire and then ushering down the New Jerusalem after His final judgement of all that have died or still alive at this time.

Revelation 20:1-8 is the only passage in the entire Bible that the premillennialists have as the basis for the 1000 year reign. Rev 20:4 doesn't speak about a 1000 year reign of Christ it says by the vision John received "and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years." It's not Christ that reigns 1000 years, but those who were killed for God's sake that reign with Christ 1000 years as 1000 being a figurative number, not a literal number as in Deuteronomy 7:9; 1Chronicles 16:15; Psalms 50:10; 90:4; 105:8 Ecc 6:6; 7:28; Daniel 5:1; 2 Peter 3:8.

I never heard of Pax Romana, or Pax Millennium so I researched it. We will see this history repeat itself when the son of perdition takes his literal seat in Jerusalem as we read this in 2Thessalonians 2:1-12 and Rev 13.
 
Maybe I can parable the figurative 1000-year thing this way:

Let's say John was exiled to the United States in 2021, and wrote that he saw American Idol in Heaven. (very hypothetical, I know...) Revelation 7 says, "And I saw an American Idol in Heaven...". And then John wrote that letter to the churches in Philadelphia, Boston, New York, Washington DC, Los Angeles, Chicago, and Houston. Everyone in all of those cities would know that John was saying that Heaven was holding a singing competition. But if the year was 2600AD and Jean Luc Picard was reading John's account from the planet Vulcan, he would think John is saying people in Heaven were worshipping some idol on planet Earth. Completely out of context.

"Pax Romana" is Asia Minor's "American Idol". The thousand years of peace is a concept they all knew, and they knew what each other was talking about. It's an idiomatic phrase. But we read John's letter 2000 years later, and we completely lose all meaning of that idiomatic phrase, and instead derive from the literal words--coming up with things which John never even remotely intended. John meant a singing competition. You read a golden calf, carved out somewhere on a different planet.
 
rstrats said:
So to what is revelation with an upper case "R" and an apostrophe "s" referring?
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Why all the silly questions as you know full well I am talking about the book of Revelation. Would you like to discuss your views, thought and understanding?
 
rstrats said:
Ok, I think I understand it now. The title of the topic should be" The Church Mentioned in Several of Revelation's Verses"
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It's titled accurately. Instead of asking me foolish questions, why not give your understanding and include the scriptures you feel support your understanding.
 
.

for_his_glory,
re: It's titled accurately."

So now you're backpedaling from your comment in post #6 where you said that it was incorrect.


re: "... give your understanding and include the scriptures you feel support your understanding."

I don't have an understanding.
 
Hi.. and thank you.
Some things stand out for me "Most pastors teach a pretrib rapture, but this is false teaching and not according to what God has already taught us." also "I don't care what man's doctrines teach as there is a long bandwagon money making teaching on pretrib that started in the early 1800's"

For me a tone is coming across so I think I need to walk very softly here. Can we talk about this? From what I read so far.. theres no talking. :) really struggling how to just chat. Hmm anything I say it would appear I am pretrib. Yet I can not find pretrib in the word. Nor can I find mid or post. I can see each view. Something for me in ever case..something is added to the word. Well like "what Jesus was really saying, that verse was really talking about". Were told by someone their own personal interpretation which most of us do. For me I take the word exactly as He said it. Jesus went back to His Fathers house to make us a home. Exactly like the old Jewish wedding. I just listen to a book about "Rapture". Now this man dug deep into the words. Which.. oddly does not get talked about. Then dives into the OT allot.. if were talking about "caught up" its all over the word. We read we will never see Gods wrath. The word makes it very clear God wrath is coming on ALL on the earth. Paul didn't say "those that remain". Paul said "we which remain will be caught up". Another fact.. one, Jesus comes we only see Him. The other, Jesus comes all see Him and the Saints come with Him. We know Jesus sends His angels.. yet thats not what Paul said. That right there.. something will be added to WHY Paul didn't.


Anyway not much studying goes on. This 1800 when the so called Rapture started? Its never been true. I wonder how many really read it. Many years ago I went looking to see if "caught up" was talked about after Christ went up. I found this hymn writer and preacher that Perry Stone has talked about also another man that passed away had a show on TBN he showed those scrolls talked about that man and many others. When I first found him they said those scrolls dated 400ad. Oh man! Thats two late..haha its what I thought. I thought 100ad but 400ad? I felt a little better watching that TBN show when he said 300-400ad. I was very proud of myself THINKING.. I FOUND HIM FRIST! I still laugh at myself.. not even close.

This is what I always say.. what does this prove? Only that some did in fact talk preach about Jesus coming for the Church before the great tribulation. I really don't like saying it. You don't get treated kindly. Its also like "fallen away". Ancient Greek.. some of the first bibles the word was "departure". Go search on that. Most of the time all you will read is this great falling away has started. Yes.. falling away is what the word means.. yet also means departure. What was being talked about before those verses? When that departure happens.. then? Buts its ok. Anyone can still use that to mean falling away.. it could be mean that.

So what do I believe? He is coming for his bride..really look into a old Jewish wedding. That new book I was reading.. man.. he told that story but.. so many Jewish words haha. The price was paid for her.. he goes back to his fathers house to make the a place to live.. yeah. After all that what does that mean? Its not in the word. Not here to play games. Since I can see pre mid post yet I can not prove one over the other. Since I was not promised tomorrow. I live in this moment He gave me. If we knew when the thief was going to come. I am always watching ready now. I will never miss Him. I can not what will happen to those not watching not believing.. would He go against their will? A man that studied the word far longer then I ever have.. how is gone home now and I never followed him. He knew all about caught up and said one day "I am post tribulation BUT if Jesus comes pre tribulation I am ready now". No one can prove post. Were talking about something that Christ said of those seasons and times only the Father knows. Yet if we were here and see that PEACE deal made.. we would have a really good guess at when Jesus is coming.

Oh and the Church is not talked about after Rev 4.. or everyone would have been posting them for years.. no one does.
 
for_his_glory said:
I don't care what man's doctrines teach as there is a long bandwagon money making teaching on pretrib that started in the early 1800's.
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Polycarp, a direct disciple of John the Apostle, and Irenaeus, who was a direct disciple of Polycarp both taught and wrote about Pre-millennial, pre-Tribulation Rapture. Translations of their writings and books and teachings are available online for free. They ministered from 69 A.D. to 202 A.D. Polycarp sat under John the Apostle's teachings directly.

Probably the best summary you can find on this subject is Ken Johnson's video here:

 
Dustin Blystone said:
Polycarp, a direct disciple of John the Apostle, and Irenaeus, who was a direct disciple of Polycarp both taught and wrote about Pre-millennial, pre-Tribulation Rapture. Translations of their writings and books and teachings are available online for free. They ministered from 69 A.D. to 202 A.D. Polycarp sat under John the Apostle's teachings directly.

Probably the best summary you can find on this subject is Ken Johnson's video here:

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All I hear in that video is what has been taught for centuries in which I use to believe in a pretrib Rapture, but really never set well in my spirit with the scriptures these pretrib teachers are teaching so I got into the word for my self and studied all the scriptures about this subject of pretrib and found it no where in the scriptures. I already post the scriptures I use in the OP so will not repeat them.

The Disciples who sat with Jesus on the Mt. of Olives in Matthew 24:3 asked Him three questions, when shall these things be, what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? These three questions are now revealed to us as the Spirit of God has revealed them to John who told him to write these revelation visions down and give them to the Church for instruction and understanding. Matthew 24 is an outline of all things that will come to pass that is revealed in full in Revelations before that of Christ return for His Bride. Those events are called the great and terrible day of the Lord.

There was a question asked in Revelation 6:17 about the great day of His wrath is come and who shall be able to stand? Part of this question is answered in Nahum Chapter One for one example as there are many scriptures detailing Gods great vengeance against His enemies and His mercy on those who are called by His name having the seal of God on them, Ephesians 4:30. Matthew 24 gives us an outline and Revelations gives us the meaning of the outline.

The spirit of Jezebel runs rampant throughout the land spreading lies from the pulpit that seem pleasing to the ears as many would rather believe their Pastor instead of searching and Spiritually discern what they are being taught, Matthew 7: 21-23, John 3-3-7; Acts 19:1-6; Romans 10:9, 10; 1 John 4:1-6.

The first four seals in Revelations are the beginning of sorrows described in Matthew 24:4-26 before that of Christ return. There are three woes to come after the beginning of sorrows. The first woe is found in Rev Chapter 8-9 with the first six trumpets. The second woe is that of the two witnesses in Rev Chapter 11:1-14 as the preaching of Gods word will have come to an end as the time of the Gentiles has been fulfilled in the last person repenting and turning back to God. The third woe begins with the seventh trumpet in Rev 11:15 and will end with the Great White Throne judgment in Rev 20.

The Marriage Supper of the Lamb comes in Rev 19 as at this time we have only prepared ourselves to be His Bride, but not yet caught up to Him. It is not until Jesus returns with His army of angels and destroys the beast and false prophet casting them into the lake of fire and, Rev 20, sends an angel to bind Satan for a time while all who are in the grave will at that time hear His voice calling both Saint and sinner to come forth as all will be resurrected at the same time as some will resurrect to eternal life and others to damnation, Rev 20; John 5:28, 29.

Those who are Christ’s will be gathered with those who are still alive at His coming and all will be given their new glorified bodies as they will be with the Lord forever. Satan will be loosed for a time as he deceives the nations as he gathers his army to go up to surround the camp of the saints of God, but are destroyed by fire that God sends down on them. Those who were called to come forth from their graves that are not of Christ will stand in His judgment and as their names are not written in the book of life will be cast into the lake of fire after Satan is cast there.

The Church, which represents the bride of Christ through the Spiritual rebirth of John 3:3-6 by that of Romans 10:9, 10, are sealed by the Holy Spirit unto the day of redemption, Ephesians 4:30, either asleep in their graves or alive at Christ coming. That day of redemption comes on the last day, John 6:40, when Christ returns and makes an end to all abominations (end to sin) as all Gods enemies will have then become the footstool of Christ, Psalms 110:1; Luke 20:42, 43 as they are destroyed forever and remembered no more and then Christ will reign here on the new earth with all the saints of God forever when this present earth and heaven pass away and God renews all things ushering down the New Jerusalem, Rev 21:1 2.

Many teach that the Church will be Raptured out of here before Gods wrath during the seven trumpets sounding (great tribulation), but according to these scriptures the body of Christ who are still alive at Christ coming will be here on earth during the time of the greatest tribulation this world has ever seen nor will ever see again, Matthew 24:21.
 
for_his_glory said:
All I hear in that video is what has been taught for centuries
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I was demonstrating that this is not something that started in the 1800's as you asserted in earlier posts.

It is a teaching that was buried once Roman Catholicism institutionalized Christianity and allegorists took over in the 4th century onwards.

John the Apostle taught Polycarp directly, and Polycarp taught Irenaeus directly, and they wrote and published sermons and books, most notably "Against Heresies".

I think John the Apostle is about as definitive a source as one could ask for. So when Polycarp asked him what he meant to convey in Revelation, and John told him, and he and his protege Irenaeus wrote it down in books we have available today for free online, there is no profiteering off of these source materials, and those documents clearly teach pre-millennial, pre-tribulation Rapture doctrine.

So, you had said that this originated in the 1800's for profiteering's sake, and now you are saying this has been taught for centuries? Are you now acknowledging that this teaching has been around since Revelation was written?

Or do you refuse to concede that point in face of the facts I've presented?

I'm not arguing with you and all your Scripture References listed and your interpretations regarding them.

I'm specifically demonstrating a point that you made about the 1800's is empirically and factually incorrect.

Do you acknowledge that or not?
 
Dustin Blystone said:
I was demonstrating that this is not something that started in the 1800's as you asserted in earlier posts.

It is a teaching that was buried once Roman Catholicism institutionalized Christianity and allegorists took over in the 4th century onwards.

John the Apostle taught Polycarp directly, and Polycarp taught Irenaeus directly, and they wrote and published sermons and books, most notably "Against Heresies".

I think John the Apostle is about as definitive a source as one could ask for. So when Polycarp asked him what he meant to convey in Revelation, and John told him, and he and his protege Irenaeus wrote it down in books we have available today for free online, there is no profiteering off of these source materials, and those documents clearly teach pre-millennial, pre-tribulation Rapture doctrine.

So, you had said that this originated in the 1800's for profiteering's sake, and now you are saying this has been taught for centuries? Are you now acknowledging that this teaching has been around since Revelation was written?

Or do you refuse to concede that point in face of the facts I've presented?

I'm not arguing with you and all your Scripture References listed and your interpretations regarding them.

I'm specifically demonstrating a point that you made about the 1800's is empirically and factually incorrect.

Do you acknowledge that or not?
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I know many have said it was taught before the 1800's, but I only know of this which I found.

Margaret MacDonald in Port Glasgow, Scotland in the 1800’s had a vision of a pretrib rapture, but she felt that the vision felt dark and evil as an untruth. When telling others of her vision many preachers ran with it as being true and started teaching their theories on pretrib rapture. There theories were handed down to us through such men as J.N. Darby, Edward Irving, C.I. Lewis and many others to present day. Notice the word theory. Theory is just the carnal minds way of interpreting something.

Not sure what you mean by Roman Catholicism institutionalized Christianity as they were first called Christians in Antioch, Acts 11:26, way before there was a Roman Catholic Church.

I do not think that John ever revealed anything to Polycarp about his visions in the revelations he received except for the letter John wrote to the church in Smyrna, Rev 2:8-11. Although Polycarp sat under his teachings before John was exciled to Patmos.

John wrote Revelations around 95AD while imprisoned on the isle of Patmos and was around 98 years old when he was released and returned to Ephesus where he died a year or so later after his release, so no, he never taught Polycarp personally about what he wrote in Revelations. What John wrote down from his visions he sent to the church in Ephesus and from there we have these letters found in the book of Revelations for all to learn from.

If indeed Polycarp and all those other teachers taught pre-millennial, pre-tribulation Rapture doctrine they never got them from John's letters as nowhere from Genesis to Revelation will you find these teachings in scripture. I know this for a fact as I use to believe in pretrib, but found many make scriptures line up with their theories instead of lining up with scripture.

I have showed all the scriptures that speak about the church, (body of Christ), being here when Christ returns on the last day as Jesus only returns once.
 
The nay-sayings of a faith's founder has little to do with that faith's truthfulness.
Jesus was tagged a magician by early rabbinical teachings (So should we drop being Christians?). The issue of every teaching is 'is it true?'
 
for_his_glory,
re: "John wrote Revelations around 95AD..."
re: "...he never taught Polycarp personally about what he wrote in Revelations."
re: "... these letters found in the book of Revelations..."

Should "Revelations" be "Revelation's" as you said in your post #6?
 
for_his_glory said:
I do not believe in a literal 1000 year millennium. Why would God keep us here for another literal 1000 years after we are caught up to Christ on the last day? It doesn't even make sense. A 1000 years in Rev 20 is not literal years, but only symbolic of a certain period of time as nowhere else in scripture other than Rev 20 does it mention a literal 1000 year reign of Christ here on earth, but symbolic as in Deuteronomy 7:9; 1Chronicles 16:15; Psalms 50:10; 90:4; 105:8 Ecc 6:6; 7:28; Daniel 5:1; 2Peter 3:8.
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Pretty good comments.
I may add:
The first three days of creation have no solar system to tell time by. Day four had the solar clock started that set 24 hour days.

The day of the suffering of Jesus shortened (IMHO) the time it would have taken for sinners to receive suffering according to their sins. Jesus provided salvation on his day of suffering. The earthquakes? Etc. (of his day) must have warped time (?).

Matthew 24:22 kjv
22. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

The construction of this verse is beyond my thoughts, but there is a shortening that takes place. There has never been a day like the day Jesus died when thousands of years of sin was placed on Him in a short period of time.

Mississippi rednecks probably hallucinate? / see visions?

eddif
 
eddif said:
Pretty good comments.
I may add:
The first three days of creation have no solar system to tell time by. Day four had the solar clock started that set 24 hour days.

The day of the suffering of Jesus shortened (IMHO) the time it would have taken for sinners to receive suffering according to their sins. Jesus provided salvation on his day of suffering. The earthquakes? Etc. (of his day) must have warped time (?).

Matthew 24:22 kjv
22. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

The construction of this verse is beyond my thoughts, but there is a shortening that takes place. There has never been a day like the day Jesus died when thousands of years of sin was placed on Him in a short period of time.

Mississippi rednecks probably hallucinate? / see visions?

eddif
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Everything is in God's timing unlike our 24 hour days.
 
rstrats said:
for_his_glory,
re: "John wrote Revelations around 95AD..."
re: "...he never taught Polycarp personally about what he wrote in Revelations."
re: "... these letters found in the book of Revelations..."

Should "Revelations" be "Revelation's" as you said in your post #6?
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Does it really matter?
 
rstrats said:
Weren't you ever told that you shouldn't answer a question with a question unless it is asking for clarification of the question?
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This may be a disputed passage.

Mark 11:28 kjv
28. And say unto him, By what authority doest thou these things? and who gave thee this authority to do these things?
29. And Jesus answered and said unto them, I will also ask of you one question, and answer me, and I will tell you by what authority I do these things.
30. The baptism of John, was it from heaven, or of men? answer me.
31. And they reasoned with themselves, saying, If we shall say, From heaven; he will say, Why then did ye not believe him?
32. But if we shall say, Of men; they feared the people: for all men counted John, that he was a prophet indeed.
33. And they answered and said unto Jesus, We cannot tell. And Jesus answering saith unto them, Neither do I tell you by what authority I do these things.

Various reasons I reckon.

eddif
 
for_his_glory said:
I do not believe in a literal 1000 year millennium. Why would God keep us here for another literal 1000 years after we are caught up to Christ on the last day? It doesn't even make sense. A 1000 years in Rev 20 is not literal years, but only symbolic of a certain period of time as nowhere else in scripture other than Rev 20 does it mention a literal 1000 year reign of Christ here on earth, but symbolic as in Deuteronomy 7:9; 1Chronicles 16:15; Psalms 50:10; 90:4; 105:8 Ecc 6:6; 7:28; Daniel 5:1; 2Peter 3:8.
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God does a lot of things that we don't understand. Doesn't mean we shouldn't believe what He says about them.

You assume you know the timing of the Rapture...which is also in question.

Why don't the other verses you displayed speak to a literal 1000 years? You are simply saying every time the number 1000 is used, it must be symbolic because you don't want to believe in the 1000 year Millennium.

What about Christ in the grave for 3 days? Why isn't that symbolic? Or maybe you believe it is.

What about Christ period? Why shouldn't He just be symbolic? He just represents the better nature of ourselves and how we should strive to be good. Sounds good doesn't it.

Explain how you arrive at what is literal and symbolic in the Bible.

Quantrill
 
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