Church Throughout Revelations

[Dustin Blystone]

Not sure what you mean by Roman Catholicism institutionalized Christianity as they were first called Christians in Antioch, Acts 11:26, way before there was a Roman Catholic Church.

I do not think that John ever revealed anything to Polycarp about his visions in the revelations he received except for the letter John wrote to the church in Smyrna, Rev 2:8-11. Although Polycarp sat under his teachings before John was exciled to Patmos.

Institutionalized in this context means to take control of something by an established organization.

The established organization were the pagan Roman priests who became Roman Catholic priests when Christianity was institutionalized (reformed and reshaped under state run control and the Scripture re-interpreted likewise). Kind of hard to teach that Jesus is coming back to destroy evil and wicked Roman Imperialism when your paycheck is coming from Rome. Enter the Allegorists who re-imagined Revelation as simply allegory.

Polycarp did sit under John the Apostle's teachings for 20 years. Polycarp trained up Irenaeus who was his young apprentice and specifically taught Revelation with the pre-Tribulation Rapture viewpoint of Revelation, and did so by writing several books. In those books which are available online for free, which were written in the 2nd century (i.e. 100 A.D. - 199 A.D.) is indisputable proof that these doctrines were taught from the people who were the direct protege's of John the Apostle himself.

You are saying "I do not think John ever [did that]" . . . there is a documented record of it happening and the books they wrote to prove it.

The 1800's is quite simply a flat out lie which is parroted out over and over again, and I correct that lie whenever I encounter it.

Believe what you want about the endtimes, but don't use 1800's argument as it is empirically and provably not factual.

 

[for_his_glory]

It truly doesn't matter who first taught pretrib as it is not found in scripture as many try to make scripture line up with their theories instead of lining up with what scripture already says.

Please show me even one scripture that says pretrib rapture in it.

 

[for_his_glory]

Funny, the PreTrib teachers use the same passages.
Perhaps in being so dogmatic in your anti-dispy assertions, you should present what you believe without criticizing the other side. Eschatology is an area that’s open for honest discussion.

I'm sorry you feel I am criticizing the other side as that is not my intention. My intention is to get others to see what has already been written in the scriptures. I too at one time believed in a pretrib Rapture, but noting in scripture was lining up with what these teachers teach.

 

[for_his_glory]

Institutionalized in this context means to take control of something by an established organization.

The established organization were the pagan Roman priests who became Roman Catholic priests when Christianity was institutionalized (reformed and reshaped under state run control and the Scripture re-interpreted likewise). Kind of hard to teach that Jesus is coming back to destroy evil and wicked Roman Imperialism when your paycheck is coming from Rome. Enter the Allegorists who re-imagined Revelation as simply allegory.

Thank you for explaining this.

 

[for_his_glory]

Weren't you ever told that you shouldn't answer a question with a question unless it is asking for clarification of the question?

You said you have no understanding of this topic so why are you here other then to troll.

 

[for_his_glory]

Here we are on page three, but I have yet to see Quantrill rstrats or Dustin Blystone give their understandings or scripture to back themselves up with in their understanding of pretrib rapture of the Church, even though I have asked for the scriptures. All I see is the three of you criticizing everything I have posted.

If you can not discuss without your understanding and giving the scriptures to support your belief than why are you here?

I take this subject very seriously in my concern for others souls.

 

[for_his_glory]

The word Rapture is not found in scripture as scripture calls it being caught up at the last trump, meaning the seventh trumpet of God, 1 Corinthians 15:51-58; 1Thessalonians 4:13-18, is explained in these verses if you read them for what they say. Rev 14:6-20 is the precursor for the catching up of the saints that makes up the true body of Christ. This is separating the wheat from the tares or in other words saints from sinners as sinners being those who have taken the mark of the beast in Rev 13. Christ is sending the angels to separate the wheat from the tares to protect His own in safety from the seven vial judgments that will take place, Rev 15:1-8; 16:1-21.

After mystery Babylon is revealed and then destroyed, Rev Chapters 17, 18, heaven rejoices her destruction as the beast and false prophet are cast into the lake of fire. It is not until we read in Rev 19 of Christ second coming as we, His Bride, have prepared ourselves, those in the grave and we that are still alive, to be caught up together to the clouds and given our new glorified bodies as we are arrayed in fine linen, clean and white then meet Christ in the air, 1Thessalonians 4:13-18. We are then joined to our Groom (Jesus) for the marriage supper (union) of the Lamb and His Bride. Fine linen means we are now arrayed in Gods righteousness.

Rev Chapters 19, 20 we the saints of God then come down to earth with Him as Jesus plants His feet on the Mount of Olives, Zechariah 14:4, to fight the final battle as He smites the nations and now rules over them. Jesus then binds Satan for a time (I don’t believe in a literal 1000 years, but only being symbolic in numbering) as then he will be loosed for awhile to try and attack the saints of God that are encamped in Gods protection. Jesus will then cast Satan into the lake of fire with the beast and the false prophet that has caused a great falling away, 2 Thessalonians 2:3. Then comes Gods final judgment on those who have rejected Christ and they are then cast into the lake of fire for their names were not found written in the Lambs Book of Life, Rev Chapter 20. Heaven and earth are restored and the New Jerusalem is ushered down and we are with the Lord for eternity.


(Reference
Genesis Chapter 49; Deuteronomy 31:28-30; Jeremiah 30:18-24; Daniel 12:1-4; Matthew 24:21-31; 25:31-33; John 6:37-40; Revelation 14:11-16

(Reference to symbolic numbering of 1000) - Deuteronomy 7:9; 1Chronicles 16:15; Psalms 50:10; 90:4; 105:8 Ecc 6:6; 7:28; Daniel 5:1; 2Peter 3:8.​

The word Rapture is found nowhere in any scripture or in any concordances or Bible dictionaries. Some people have taken the transliterate word of the Greek, Harpazo, to mean Rapture, but the definition of this word is:


1. To seize, carry off by force, obtain by robbery


2. To seize on, claim for one's self eagerly


3. To snatch out or away


The Latin word rapio is where the word Rapture came from as it means to be seized or snatched up. No where in scripture does it say we will be seized or snatched up as we are obtained by robbery. We will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air after receiving our new glorified bodies that will be like Jesus and will evermore be with Him on the last day when He returns, John 6:40. It's no secret quiet rapture as many teach as the voice and the sound of a trumpet during the last day will be very loud and every eye will see Jesus return so it doesn't sound like we are seized or snatched up from the earth as God sends His angels out to gather the saints of God from the four corners of the earth, Rev 1:7; 1Thessalonians 4:13-18; Matthew 24:29-31.

​

 

[Hopeful]

I'm sorry you feel I am criticizing the other side as that is not my intention. My intention is to get others to see what has already been written in the scriptures. I too at one time believed in a pretrib Rapture, but noting in scripture was lining up with what these teachers teach.

I too once bought into the pre-trib doctrines, but I couldn't figure out how the teachers and believers of said doctrine could ever consider themselves worthy of an early escape while they continued to walk in sin?
My questioning of "rapture theory" put me on the road to the truth.

 

[Dustin Blystone]

It truly doesn't matter who first taught pretrib as it is not found in scripture as many try to make scripture line up with their theories instead of lining up with what scripture already says.

O.K. I will accept the first part of this statement, as a tacit agreement that you will stop using the 1800's argument to support your viewpoint.

Here we are on page three, but I have yet to see @Quantrill @rstrats or @Dustin Blystone give their understandings or scripture to back themselves up with in their understanding of pretrib rapture of the Church, even though I have asked for the scriptures. All I see is the three of you criticizing everything I have posted.

I'm a Bible teacher for 12 years, and I hold to the pre-tribulation Rapture viewpoint. I didn't enter this discussion to argue over interpretations of different Scriptures . . . I entered it to correct the erroneous 1800's argument.

I think you are very well aware of all of the pre-tribulation Rapture Scriptures, and you choose to interpret them according to your hermeneutic, so there is obviously no convincing you. You have your viewpoint, and you are obviously steeped in your viewpoint. I've read all of your posts in this thread and I disagree with your interpretation of those Scriptures, but as you are steeped in your viewpoint regarding those Scriptures, I'm likewise steeped in my viewpoint, so what point would there be in arguing and debating it? It would be fruitless for the both of us. I would post the Scriptures that support my viewpoint, and you would immediately, jump all over them and point out how you believe I'm interpreting them incorrectly. Is that not obviously the case with you? Do you not recognize that about yourself?

You are clearly not here for honest inquiry and debate about this topic, but simply to argue, insist, convince, immediately dismiss counter arguments, etc.

I used to not believe in a pre-tribulation Rapture, didn't care about it, or the end-times, and was more of a "pan-trib" believer (wait and see how it all pans out) . . . and after careful and diligent study, I arrived at the pre-tribulation Rapture viewpoint. It requires a comprehensive understanding across all prophetic / apocalyptic Scriptures, not one verse that says it all. So you have your comprehensive systematic understanding of how you feel it will play out, and I have mine. Attacking each other with the Word of God and our interpretations of it will do neither of us any good.

The word Rapture is found nowhere in any scripture or in any concordances or Bible dictionaries. Some people have taken the transliterate word of the Greek, Harpazo, to mean Rapture

I don't need to use the word "Rapture" to believe in the catching away or snatching away, Rapture is just a convenient Latin-based word to express the concept, so that is really not an argument at all. You yourself said you believe the catching away will happen, simply at a different time in a different context, so arguing over the word Rapture is a bit silly, since you yourself believe in the "catching away" (i.e. Rapture)

Thank you for explaining this.

You're welcome!

 

[Dustin Blystone]

I too once bought into the pre-trib doctrines, but I couldn't figure out how the teachers and believers of said doctrine could ever consider themselves worthy of an early escape while they continued to walk in sin?
My questioning of "rapture theory" put me on the road to the truth.

Who says I'm walking in sin? I'm walking with Christ in sanctification and holiness

And the Scripture reference to answer your question is:

Luke 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

as well as:

Revelation 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

 

[Hopeful]

Who says I'm walking in sin? I'm walking with Christ in sanctification and holiness

And the Scripture reference to answer your question is:

Luke 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

as well as:

Revelation 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

I am glad you are a non-sinner.
Freedom from sin was never something taught by the pre-trib' group I was with.
I knew God wouldn't allow some sinners to leave early and others to have to endure the end times.
There had to be a real difference between "goers" and stayers".
Thankfully, God led me to the group that did teach perfection in Spirit and mind.
So now I could care less if I stay or go early.

 

[for_his_glory]

I too once bought into the pre-trib doctrines, but I couldn't figure out how the teachers and believers of said doctrine could ever consider themselves worthy of an early escape while they continued to walk in sin?
My questioning of "rapture theory" put me on the road to the truth.

When one teaches that Christ is going to return twice then this comes against scripture. Why can they not believe what Jesus said that we read in Matthew 24:29-31.

 

[for_his_glory]

O.K. I will accept the first part of this statement, as a tacit agreement that you will stop using the 1800's argument to support your viewpoint.

It doesn't matter what date you put to this teaching, but that no one has ever given me scripture to support this theory. Like I said, I use to buy into the pretrib teachings, but the scriptures they give do not support it.

Can you provide the pretrib scriptures?

 

[Dustin Blystone]

It doesn't matter what date you put to this teaching, but that no one has ever given me scripture to support this theory. Like I said, I use to buy into the pretrib teachings, but the scriptures they give do not support it.

Can you provide the pretrib scriptures?

I will but it will be comprehensive. It is a systematic belief, meaning it depends how you interpret many prophetic and apocalyptic Scriptures systematically as a whole, not simply one or two Scriptures.

This means it will most likely be pages upon pages long . . . each Scripture used I will provide the commentary on how I'm interpreting it and in some cases references, and how it fits comprehensively with the other Scriptures used.

This will take some time. If you are truly interested in reading it and considering it as a possibility, and as a plausible, legitimate way to interpret said Scriptures, I'd be glad to. I don't mind at all if it doesn't change your mind, but treating it with more respect as a legitimate alternative viewpoint to yours would be appreciated. I maybe have time to work on something that comprehensive on Friday / Saturdayish? Is that o.k. with you?

 

[for_his_glory]

O.K. I will accept the first part of this statement, as a tacit agreement that you will stop using the 1800's argument to support your viewpoint.


I'm a Bible teacher for 12 years, and I hold to the pre-tribulation Rapture viewpoint. I didn't enter this discussion to argue over interpretations of different Scriptures . . . I entered it to correct the erroneous 1800's argument.

I think you are very well aware of all of the pre-tribulation Rapture Scriptures, and you choose to interpret them according to your hermeneutic, so there is obviously no convincing you. You have your viewpoint, and you are obviously steeped in your viewpoint. I've read all of your posts in this thread and I disagree with your interpretation of those Scriptures, but as you are steeped in your viewpoint regarding those Scriptures, I'm likewise steeped in my viewpoint, so what point would there be in arguing and debating it? It would be fruitless for the both of us. I would post the Scriptures that support my viewpoint, and you would immediately, jump all over them and point out how you believe I'm interpreting them incorrectly. Is that not obviously the case with you? Do you not recognize that about yourself?

You are clearly not here for honest inquiry and debate about this topic, but simply to argue, insist, convince, immediately dismiss counter arguments, etc.

I used to not believe in a pre-tribulation Rapture, didn't care about it, or the end-times, and was more of a "pan-trib" believer (wait and see how it all pans out) . . . and after careful and diligent study, I arrived at the pre-tribulation Rapture viewpoint. It requires a comprehensive understanding across all prophetic / apocalyptic Scriptures, not one verse that says it all. So you have your comprehensive systematic understanding of how you feel it will play out, and I have mine. Attacking each other with the Word of God and our interpretations of it will do neither of us any good.



I don't need to use the word "Rapture" to believe in the catching away or snatching away, Rapture is just a convenient Latin-based word to express the concept, so that is really not an argument at all. You yourself said you believe the catching away will happen, simply at a different time in a different context, so arguing over the word Rapture is a bit silly, since you yourself believe in the "catching away" (i.e. Rapture)


You're welcome!

First, I never argue the word, but rather try to discuss the indifferences as I will never attack another person for how they believe. I've been teaching for 23 years, but yet it doesn't make me or you of 12 years infallible and I never force my teachings on anyone, but only ask they take the scriptures I give and study them for themselves.

I know you will not read it, but I have written a book on Revelation you can find under the subtitle Revelation as I go into a greater detail using scripture from Genesis to Revelation. Chapter 13 will explain why there is no pretrib.

I would love nothing more than to be out of here before God's great wrath during the seven trumpets sounding, but I am not aware of any pretrib scriptures and have for many years ask others to share them, but to no avail, no one ever has. Rev 4:1, 1 Corinthians 15:51-58 and 1 Thessalonians 4:3-18 are three main scriptures pretrib teaches love to use, buy yet none of them speak of a pretrib no matter how hard they try to read it into them.

Let me ask you a question. Why do you not believe what Jesus said in Matthew 24:29-31? It seems you only believe in viewpoints. Viewpoints are not always exact unless they line up with scripture.

Why do I pursue teachings on pretrib is because I want to prepare others for what must come first before the return of Christ. Everyone has to come to their own understanding as we share with each other.

 

[for_his_glory]

[ACMP=reminder]
This topic is not about sinless perfection. Please stay on topic of the OP. Thank you.
[/ACMP]

 

[for_his_glory]

I will but it will be comprehensive. It is a systematic belief, meaning it depends how you interpret many prophetic and apocalyptic Scriptures systematically as a whole, not simply one or two Scriptures.

This means it will most likely be pages upon pages long . . . each Scripture used I will provide the commentary on how I'm interpreting it and in some cases references, and how it fits comprehensively with the other Scriptures used.

This will take some time. If you are truly interested in reading it and considering it as a possibility, and as a plausible, legitimate way to interpret said Scriptures, I'd be glad to. I don't mind at all if it doesn't change your mind, but treating it with more respect as a legitimate alternative viewpoint to yours would be appreciated. I maybe have time to work on something that comprehensive on Friday / Saturdayish? Is that o.k. with you?

I would like this, but could you break it down in a shorter sections to make it easier to discuss that section before you post another one. Looking forward to discussing this with you, but please do not be upset or offended if I do not see the scriptures as you see them as it makes for a better discussion and we will not violate the ToS.

 

[Dustin Blystone]

I would like this, but could you break it down in a shorter sections to make it easier to discuss that section before you post another one. Looking forward to discussing this with you, but please do not be upset or offended if I do not see the scriptures as you see them as it makes for a better discussion and we will not violate the ToS.

I'm not sure . . . You are asking an awful lot of me.

As I previously mentioned . . . you seem steeped in your belief . . . I likewise am steeped in mine.

You attack pre-trib Scriptures in advance to insist they are not teaching what pre-trib believers believe about them.

Therefore, it seems you are more interested in this:

Since you mentioned 23 years, I assume you are more steeped in your beliefs than I think I'm willing to deal with.

You seem to also be on a mission to attack the pre-trib view in order to help "prepare" people . . .

I find that absurd . . . there is no preparing for the Tribulation . . . that is my opinion . . . if you think you can "prepare" for it . . . then good luck.

I think you are one that has all of your contradictions ready to go, so that you can engage in the automatic gainsaying of anything I might say as per the video above and have no interest in hearing what I have to say other than to immediately come back with a copy/paste answer you have in your arsenal.

I've written two Bible Study books . . . and teach on them on my YouTube channel.

When you say you are a teacher, what does that mean? You teach Sunday School? Bible Studies? etc.?

I'm from the Chuck Missler school of thought . . . so you can easily see my viewpoints and the Scripture references thereof by watching his videos or listening to his audio teachings, but you obviously won't do that since you are only here to argue, and to be on your "mission" of "preparing" people for the Tribulation . . . a fruitless errand in my opinion.

Let me ask you a question. Why do you not believe what Jesus said in Matthew 24:29-31? It seems you only believe in viewpoints. Viewpoints are not always exact unless they line up with scripture.

Why do you think I don't believe what Jesus said in Matthew 24:29-31? You make a lot of assumptions.

I think it is best we don't waste any more of each other's time?

What say you?

 

[Quantrill]

Here we are on page three, but I have yet to see Quantrill rstrats or Dustin Blystone give their understandings or scripture to back themselves up with in their understanding of pretrib rapture of the Church, even though I have asked for the scriptures. All I see is the three of you criticizing everything I have posted.

If you can not discuss without your understanding and giving the scriptures to support your belief than why are you here?

I take this subject very seriously in my concern for others souls.

You gave your 'belief'. I raised questions concerning it.

Why not just answer the questions instead of raving how I or others have not presented proof of a pre-trib Rapture?

My questions go to the very heart of your belief. Perhaps that is why you ignore them.

I take it seriously also. Which is why I asked you what I did.

Quantrill

 

[eddif]

Why do I pursue teachings on pretrib is because I want to prepare others for what must come first before the return of Christ. Everyone has to come to their own understanding as we share with each other.

What would an at trib 1000 year day be called?
A day of separating sheep from goats
A day of glory for those listed in the Lambs book of life
A day of damnation for the lost

Would the sun and moon and stars be gone and time is no more?

Would we rule and reign for that 1000 year day?

Just a thought

Mississippi redneck
eddif