Conception and Birth of Believers

[FreeGrace]

Okay, now you've brought up a new term, "freely believe". Why not just call it what it is, ignorance of what's true?

Because it isn't that. People have the choice of believing whether anything is true or not. That's the basis of free will, as I define and understand it. Heb 11:6 tells us that apart from faith (believing what He says), it is impossible to please God. iow, He is pleased when people do believe what He says.

Further, ignorance is no excuse.

By this you would mean free faith, free to put their faith in whoever, wherever and in whatever?

That is correct. Do you believe in Santa Claus? Some do, you know. ;)

I don't know what to believe.

OK, then you haven't made up your mind. So you have chosen NOT to believe yet. Your choice was based on lack of facts. Some will claim they don't believe in God because they don't have enough information. Yet, per Rom 1:18-20, they have no excuse.

This to me is just another equivocation. You can stamp free over whatever you want.

Thank you for your kind permission.

Meanwhile, I still believe there's something wrong in the reasoning of the mind that would conclude that one's Maker is untrustworthy.

Of course there is. I never suggested otherwise. In fact, the Bible says they who do so have no excuse. Why don't they?

Rom 1:19-20 says: 19because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. 20For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

Such thoughts are self defeating vanity, whether they take the form of pride or shame.

And yet, people still make such choices. Your point?

It proves that sin is based upon a deception ,a fabrication, an illusion, an false imagining.

The issue is this: people still choose what they will believe, whether by deception or by clear facts.

It proves that anyone whose reasoning ends with doing unto others what they would not want done to them, is reasoning upon a lie, that they think is true.

So what? They still make such choices.

Consequently the choice to sin is not coming from a sound reasoning, which means it is not freely made but the product of a corrupt heart and mind.

I have no idea why you think "sound reasoning" or lack thereof has any relevance to the issue of choice.

I'm looking, still looking.This isn't saying why they are deceived.

It doesn't matter why anyone is deceived. You haven't explained why it would matter.

It does say they follow their own lusts, but lusts are insatiable and not something someone chooses to have.

While we don't "choose our lust", they aren't "insatiable". People can and do control their lusts, all the time. Even unbelievers can do that.

This is describing an alarming future for humanity which could be applicable now. Again, something is wrong with people who don't endure sound doctrine and it isn't simply because they chose poorly, believed freely, willed casually, moved carelessly.

Yes, there is something "wrong" with them. They are being unreasonable, which is still their choice, not that they would agree that they are being unreasonable.

Of course you are right that the deceived seek what they want to hear even as they do what they want to do, just as believers in Christ seek what they want to hear and do what they want to do. The difference is the deceived are deceived and their wants are contrary to Life.

Even believers can and are deceived. Which is why there are so many variations of "doctrine".

You misunderstand me. I'm saying the problem is in the conscience. For example before eating the knowledge of good and evil they did not feel shame about being naked and yet afterward they did. Perhaps you will say they were ashamed because they disobeyed God.

I really don't care why they were ashamed. They knew they disobeyed, which is why they hid.

Yes we know right from wrong, but only according to the image of god we hold to be true.

And…no one has any excuse for having the wrong image.

Therefore, the Character of whoever sits on the mercy seat of the conscience, is the ultimate decider in our conscience, since he sits as the balance between accuse and excuse. The devil sets the bar so high on the accuse side that he disqualifies himself. Matthew 23:13.

What?? First, God is NEVER the "decider in our conscience" as you suppose. Second, what does the devil disqualify himself from, specifically? I'm not following your line of thought here.

Matt 23:13 - 3“But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you shut off the kingdom of heaven from people; for you do not enter in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in.

Please explain why this verse is relevant to what you have posted as I do not see any relevance.

No one chose for me to be unreasonable. It is pride that makes men unreasonable.

So? Does that excuse the prideful? No. The Bible warns against pride. So it is something that we can choose not to be.

It's not a question of who's yanking their chains? It's a question of what are they believing that's untrue?

Are you asking me these questions, or what. I'm not following you.

The devil is an example of pride. Why is he proud?

Why is it relevant to ask why the devil is proud? Are you suggesting that he has a good excuse for being prideful?

Pride is a vanity inherent in creation. Vanity begins by gradually taking God and His attributes for granted, eventually growing into pride.

Again, how is any of this relevant to the discussion of free will?

To me, the big picture, is that God is revealing Himself in the midst of all speculation of Who He is. He dose it this way as a means to destroy the circumstance of vanity that happens inl creation so as to bring forth an Everlasting Kingdom without any corruption.

And?

I said this:
"OK, so the question becomes "what is being stored in the heart?" And that is a free choice.
If one spends a lot of time being jealous of others, vindictive towards others, lusting after others, etc, that becomes the "abundance" of the heart.
And we are responsible and accountable for what WE store into that heart. Psa 119:11 says "thy word have I hid in my heart, that I might not sin against thee". David was very wise."

You have chosen a powerful scripture in Psalm 119.

I believe all Scripture is "alive and powerful", per Heb 4:12.

Nobody speaks like this without the greatest esteem and profound understanding of the worth of God in the mind and the soul. Hence the will is utterly dependent upon God lest it become an abomination. That is why I don't believe in free will.

I don't follow why you added your last sentence. The fact that we are dependent upon God has no bearing at all on our freedom of thought and actions. Please explain yourself more fully.

Have you ever been jealous, vindictive, lusting? These things are not desirable and no one would choose to have them.

The choice is taking action in these areas. That's where the choice is. Not having or not having the lusts. I think your view continues to be a bit confused.

Well of course you do because you believe in free will.

So you don't think that paying attention is a choice that people make??? Why?

Sorry, just forthrightly and honestly expressing the overall impression I've been left with. Everything is a free choice. Jealousy, charity, pride, humility, backstabbing, forgiveness, blame, praise, cursing, blessing, murder, heaven, hell, God , the devil, listening, not paying attention, living, dying, etc,etc,etc...
Continued.

Nope. Not at all. You're either conflating or confusing desire with action upon the desire. Just because someone who may see a beautiful woman and has lustful thoughts about her, doesn't even involve choice. The choice is if he acts upon that lust.

For example, King David is just such a man. When he gazed upon the bathing beauty, he had lustful thoughts. OK. Not an uncommon reaction from a man. But…here is the issue. What did he do about it? He had a choice, which was FREE. He could have looked the other way. He could have prayed for strength to resist his impulses. Or he could have (which he did) call for her and rape her. Let's not minimize what he did. It wasn't adultery. When the king wanted something, he got it. She did not have a choice in reality. Those who defied the king during those times usually lost their lives. So basically King David was a rapist, then a murderer. All of his actions were FREE CHOICES.

When I speak of free will, meaning free choice, I'm ALWAYS talking about actions, not the desires.

It seems you think one's desires are the issue. They aren't. We ALL have desires, some natural, some unnatural. It's the actions that are freely chosen.

 

[FreeGrace]

If God created Satan with a free will so that he was able to hate us, God created his ability to hate us.
There are much better answers for why pride/ hate happens than free will.

I think your analysis is flawed. God created angels and humans with the freedom to love or hate. It always interests me when people express such freedom as a "creation of ability to sin" issue. That completely misses the real issue.

Because God did create the intellect, so that man can reason things out, man is free to or not. That is the issue.

Those who are obstinate in the face of truth and reason have chosen to be, even though they don't know it. That doesn't matter. Those who are deceived have no excuse either. They still made their choice.

The bottom line is that we ourselves make our own choices. If because of being deceived, so what? We still made thte choice.

No one else is making our own choices for us.

And please keep in mind that our desires are not the issue. It's the actions that is the issue. And those actions are freely done.

 

[FreeGrace]

Titus 1:15 speaks of certain men who were speaking falsehood about others and they have a defiled conscience. I used this scripture to show men who are unreasonable. I don't see how Romans 3:9, 23 has anything to do with this. We're all under sin, but we're not all walking with defiled consciences.

I see this as your confusion. Being "under sin" means that we all have defined consciences. And I asked for a definition of what you meant by "defied conscience". I haven't seen it yet.

 

[childeye]

I think your analysis is flawed. God created angels and humans with the freedom to love or hate. It always interests me when people express such freedom as a "creation of ability to sin" issue. That completely misses the real issue.

This wasn't my analysis. It was an example of equivocating in response to an equivocation. You say that, "God creates angels and humans with the freedom to Love or hate". I won't speak for angels, but for men. I say, God created men with the virtue of Love. Hate is the product of feeling betrayal to that Love.

Because God did create the intellect, so that man can reason things out, man is free to or not. That is the issue.

So man is free to not reason and free to reason, because God gave Him the ability to reason or not reason, and the reason he is free is because he can reason or not reason. A complete equivocation that does not stand up to reason. If a man does not reason he is brain dead. I think what you mean to say is, if a man is unreasonable he is in defiance of reason. God did not make men capable of defiance of reason, Satan did.

Those who are obstinate in the face of truth and reason have chosen to be, even though they don't know it. That doesn't matter. Those who are deceived have no excuse either. They still made their choice

The judgment is up to God to ultimately determine, but I hope for all men to be saved. 1Timothy 2:1.

I believe that those who are obstinate, that don't listen to Truth and reason, are the very ones who believe that those who are deceived have no excuse, because they made their choice. You know, the Pharisee type of attitude that conspired to kill the Christ.

The bottom line is that we ourselves make our own choices. If because of being deceived, so what? We still made thte choice.

I think that is an attitude without mercy and understanding. Thank God Jesus doesn't think this way or we'd all be dead and Satan triumphant. For the Lord, so precious of mercy suffers a brutal death and yet asks forgiveness for his murderers saying, " Father forgive them for they know not what they do". Hence the Gospel of God's grace is seen on the cross. Acts 26:18, Luke 23:34. 1 Corinthians 1:18.

No one else is making our own choices for us.

All this means is each man has a will. It doesn't mean the will is free of an image of god or an Image of God.. Let all men be liars that God be true.

And please keep in mind that our desires are not the issue. It's the actions that is the issue. And those actions are freely done.

This is approaching a contradiction. Here's what you said in post #174."His desires weren't forced on him. Which is what it seems you want to argue".
In post #191: "OK, so the question becomes "what is being stored in the heart?" And that is a free choice. If one spends a lot of time being jealous of others, vindictive towards others, lusting after others, etc, that becomes the "abundance" of the heart."
So it is an issue, otherwise scripture wouldn't mention it. In fact scripture goes on and on about it. All these torments of the soul come from believing a lie that is on the inside. Remove the lie and the torments stop. Matthew 23:25-26.

 

[Gregg]

Why did you believe?

I chose to believe and follow Him because He commanded me to follow (Jn 12:36) and to believe (Jn 12:36) in Him.

The thing is, I cannot separate the love that I feel or rather experience in life from God since he is Love. I believe in Jesus because the Love inside me recognizes Love on the cross. So to me God causes me to believe. Does that make sense?

Just a reminder, we are not talking about what we have in Christ once becoming a Christian; but rather, the conception and birth of believers - the process and those things leading up to and involving our becoming a Christian.

 

[FreeGrace]

This wasn't my analysis. It was an example of equivocating in response to an equivocation. You say that, "God creates angels and humans with the freedom to Love or hate". I won't speak for angels, but for men. I say, God created men with the virtue of Love. Hate is the product of feeling betrayal to that Love.

Where did you learn that God created men with the virtue of Love? And where did you learn that hate is the produce of feeling betrayal to that Love? These sound more like sentimental feelings than facts.

So man is free to not reason and free to reason, because God gave Him the ability to reason or not reason, and the reason he is free is because he can reason or not reason. A complete equivocation that does not stand up to reason.

That would be an opinion. Man can and does reason, or choose not to. We see it every day in reality.

If a man does not reason he is brain dead.

No, he is being unreasonable, as some of your responses demonstrate, yet I don't consider you brain dead.

I think what you mean to say is, if a man is unreasonable he is in defiance of reason. God did not make men capable of defiance of reason, Satan did.

I'll repeat my point: God created man with an intellect, which reasons, or not.

The judgment is up to God to ultimately determine, but I hope for all men to be saved. 1Timothy 2:1.

What a vain hope. Aren't you aware that many are already in hell, awaiting the Great White Throne judgment, where they will be cast into the lake of fire, also called the Second Death?

All this means is each man has a will. It doesn't mean the will is free of an image of god or an Image of God..

I have no idea what your statement means; that the will isn't free "of an image of god or an Image of God". You keep defaulting to this idea of "image of god". I don't see any real relevance to man's free choices and "image of god". If there is one, you've not explained it very well.

This is approaching a contradiction. Here's what you said in post #174."His desires weren't forced on him. Which is what it seems you want to argue".
In post #191: "OK, so the question becomes "what is being stored in the heart?" And that is a free choice. If one spends a lot of time being jealous of others, vindictive towards others, lusting after others, etc, that becomes the "abundance" of the heart."

There is no contradiction. And you haven't explained how it "approaches a contradiction".

So it is an issue, otherwise scripture wouldn't mention it. In fact scripture goes on and on about it. All these torments of the soul come from believing a lie that is on the inside. Remove the lie and the torments stop. Matthew 23:25-26.

Hardly. Many people believe "the lie" and are not in 'torment'. Again, I have no idea how or why you think anyone who believes the lie would be in torment.

Please clarify.

 

[WIP]

God did not make men capable of defiance of reason, Satan did.

Does Satan have that kind of power? Can Satan make man do anything or change man in any way?

 

[childeye]

Does Satan have that kind of power? Can Satan make man do anything or change man in any way?

Satan can only usurp power through a false image of god, just as lies usurp power from the truth.

 

[FreeGrace]

Satan can only usurp power through a false image of god, just as lies usurp power from the truth.

But you said this:
"God did not make men capable of defiance of reason, Satan did."

Do you realize that you are ascribing more power to satan than to God??

 

[childeye]

Free grace said: Hardly. Many people believe "the lie" and are not in 'torment'. Again, I have no idea how or why you think anyone who believes the lie would be in torment.

Please clarify. Keep in mind I am discussing your statement that our desires are not the issue, it's the actions that matter. My claim is that the desires are what matter, since if we have no ungodly desires within us, ungodly actions will not follow.

The torments that you provided are these: post #191: If one spends a lot of time being jealous of others, vindictive towards others, lusting after others, etc, that becomes the "abundance" of the heart.

Addressing these torments I said this: All these torments of the soul come from believing a lie that is on the inside. Remove the lie and the torments stop. Matthew 23:25-26

 

[childeye]

But you said this:
"God did not make men capable of defiance of reason, Satan did."

Yes, and that said defiance as I've said many times already is pride. Satan is king over all the children of pride.

Do you realize that you are ascribing more power to satan than to God??

No, I realize I said Satan usurps power from God. Read the record.

 

[FreeGrace]

Free grace said: "Hardly. Many people believe "the lie" and are not in 'torment'. Again, I have no idea how or why you think anyone who believes the lie would be in torment. Please clarify."

Keep in mind I am discussing your statement that our desires are not the issue, it's the actions that matter. My claim is that the desires are what matter, since if we have no ungodly desires within us, ungodly actions will not follow.

First, I note that you didn't clarify. Second, your conditional "if" statement is totally false. ALL humans have ungodly desires within us. So, of course, ungodly actions will follow. Again, I don't understand how your statements have any relevance to the discussion.

The torments that you provided are these: post #191: If one spends a lot of time being jealous of others, vindictive towards others, lusting after others, etc, that becomes the "abundance" of the heart.

So you think that people with these mental attitude sins are "tormented"? Nah. These people actually feed on these feelings. They aren't tormented at all. Maybe you've never met vindictive people. Or jealous people.

Addressing these torments I said this: All these torments of the soul come from believing a lie that is on the inside. Remove the lie and the torments stop. Matthew 23:25-26

OK. Provide a tutorial on "how to remove the lie". I'm serious.

 

[FreeGrace]

Yes, and that said defiance as I've said many times already is pride. Satan is king over all the children of pride.

No, satan is "god of this world", and the "prince of the power of the air". There is no verse to support your claim.

I said this:
"Do you realize that you are ascribing more power to satan than to God??"

No, I realize I said Satan usurps power from God. Read the record.

OK, so you don't realize that you are ascribing more power to sastan than to God.

In order to "usurp" power from someone means the usurper has more power.

Here is a definition of "usurp":
v. verb

• 1. To seize and hold (the power or rights of another, for example) by force or without legal authority.
• 2. To take over or occupy without right.usurp a neighbor's land.
• 3. To take the place of (another) without legal authority; supplant.

No one can "seize and hold" from another unless they HAVE THE POWER to do so.
No one can "take over" unless they HAVE THE POWER to do so.
No one can "take the place of" another unless they HAVE THE POWER to do so.

I am truly sad that you do not understand this.

 

[WIP]

I have removed a couple posts. The first does not comply with our forum guidelines and the second as it references the deleted post. Responses in opposition should cite the scriptural reference that provides the support for the position stated.

 

[childeye]

I chose to believe and follow Him because He commanded me to follow (Jn 12:36) and to believe (Jn 12:36) in Him.

So you say you chose to believe and follow Him because he commanded you. Respectfully, this doesn't answer my question, so let me rephrase. If Satan came as an angel of light and commanded you to follow him , would you believe and follow him simply because he commanded you to? If not, why do you believe in Jesus and not in Satan? If you will then say Jesus is not Satan, then what is it about Jesus that makes him worthy to follow and not Satan?

Just a reminder, we are not talking about what we have in Christ once becoming a Christian; but rather, the conception and birth of believers - the process and those things leading up to and involving our becoming a Christian.

I realize that. My statement of how and why I believe is precisely addressing that.

 

[Gregg]

So you say you chose to believe and follow Him because he commanded you. Respectfully, this doesn't answer my question, so let me rephrase. If Satan came as an angel of light and commanded you to follow him , would you believe and follow him simply because he commanded you to? If not, why do you believe in Jesus and not in Satan? If you will then say Jesus is not Satan, then what is it about Jesus that makes him worthy to follow and not Satan?

I answered that here:

Christ has been revealed to me by the Father

After the Father revealed Jesus to me (Jn 6:44, Rom 3:25-26), I believed in His testimony concerning His Son for my righteousness and eternal life; then Christ presented me to the Father (Jn 14:6 b, Rom 3:24).

In between the Father showing Christ to me and Christ bringing me before the Father, in obedience to God I exercised my will to place my trust in Him; I confessed the LORD Jesus Christ and believed, "Because if you confess the Lord Jesus with your mouth, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth one confesses unto salvation" (Rom 10:9-10 LITV).

 

[childeye]

I answered that here:

After the Father revealed Jesus to me (Jn 6:44, Rom 3:25-26), I believed in His testimony concerning His Son for my righteousness and eternal life; then Christ presented me to the Father (Jn 14:6 b, Rom 3:24).

In between the Father showing Christ to me and Christ bringing me before the Father, in obedience to God I exercised my will to place my trust in Him; I confessed the LORD Jesus Christ and believed, "Because if you confess the Lord Jesus with your mouth, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth one confesses unto salvation" (Rom 10:9-10 LITV).

I believe your answers are the same as mine just said differently. I say that Love spoke in my heart recognizing the Love in Christ on the cross, and you say the Father showed Christ to you. You say you exercised your will, and I say God moved my will through knowledge of the Truth revealed. So why do you believe in free will when you admit that the Father revealed the son to you? Are you saying you believe you could have chosen not to believe even after God showed you?

 

[childeye]

No, satan is "god of this world", and the "prince of the power of the air". There is no verse to support your claim.

Both of these statements support my claim.

I said this:
"Do you realize that you are ascribing more power to satan than to God??"

OK, so you don't realize that you are ascribing more power to sastan than to God.

In order to "usurp" power from someone means the usurper has more power.

Here is a definition of "usurp":
v. verb

• 1. To seize and hold (the power or rights of another, for example) by force or without legal authority.
• 2. To take over or occupy without right.usurp a neighbor's land.
• 3. To take the place of (another) without legal authority; supplant.

No one can "seize and hold" from another unless they HAVE THE POWER to do so.
No one can "take over" unless they HAVE THE POWER to do so.
No one can "take the place of" another unless they HAVE THE POWER to do so.

I am truly sad that you do not understand this.

Lol Freegrace. Don't be sad. All God need do is shine His Light and the darkness that usurps is defeated. Satan is already defeated through the cross.

 

[FreeGrace]

Both of these statements support my claim.

No, neither one mentions "children of pride", as if satan is king over only them.

In fact, 1 Jn 5:19 says "We know that we are of God, and that the whole world lies in the power of the evil one." NASB

Lol Freegrace. Don't be sad. All God need do is shine His Light and the darkness that usurps is defeated. Satan is already defeated through the cross.

Therefore, he hasn't usurped anything from God. Which was the reason I was sad about your not understanding.

 

[childeye]

No, neither one mentions "children of pride", as if satan is king over only them.

In fact, 1 Jn 5:19 says "We know that we are of God, and that the whole world lies in the power of the evil one." NASB

Job 41:34.

Therefore, he hasn't usurped anything from God. Which was the reason I was sad about your not understanding.

Lies however do usurp from the Truth.