Conception and Birth of Believers

[gr8grace3]

To be clear,

This is the problem for me. You have not been clear. Gregg and freegrace are clear and to the point and are easily understood. I can hardly make heads or tails out of most of your posts.

Can you do me a favor,please? If you were witnessing to an unbeliever, what would your message be to that person? For me, it just gets to the nuts and the bolts of things and I will have a better chance at seeing what you are saying.

These are the 3 main points that I "see" you believing by what I have read.

1. God causes belief.
2. satan causes men to stay in unbelief.
3. Soft determinism/compatiblism ~~by trying to explain that man will be held accountable somehow, yet trying to maintain the Sovereignty/determinism of God in the first 2 points. Soft determinism/compatiblism in the end is determinism, It just has a lot of spin,intellectualism,confusion before that conclusion.....this is what I see in your answers, compatiblism.

 

[childeye]

A free will cannot do anything. There is no power in a will. There is only choice. For example, one can confess their sins or not. One can believe the gospel promise of God or not. People treat free will as though it has some kind of power to do things. It has no power. Making a choice doesn't require power.

The way I see it, there is no power in a free will because it doesn't exist. There is only choice? And if there is only One God, where is the choice? I Grant that every waking moment we are choosing from one moment to the next. If I didn't choose to sit here I have by default chose to stand here or somewhere else. Do you see what I'm saying about choices? Life is choices constantly happening. Essentially you are saying life is choices. This becomes redundancy. So you choose to believe in free will and I don't. What's your reason? Because life is choices?

Wrong. Free will theology comes from Scripture, which teaches that God offers mankind choices, and the consequences of such choices. Deut 11 and 30 are clear examples of the choices that God gives to man.

Contrary to what you might think, free will is a description of a certain type of will. Free is an adjective. It has nothing to do with available or unavailable options. The word will in scripture means desire, not choice.

Then you may quit your attack on free will. You just acknowledged where man's choices come from: what one loves.

Yes, what one loves is behind their choice, which is why the word will in scripture means desire.

Choices come from the heart. Not from "darkness". Darkness may influence choices, but doesn't cause them.

Please say what you think causes choices so that there is no ambiguity. Then I can respond appropriately with understanding of your position.

The tired, but frequent claim that "the devil made me do it" is just an excuse for one's actions, as if it wasn't their fault.

But all of our choices are our fault. We cause our choices. No one else does.

We don't cause all of our choices, that is easy to prove. But of course what you meant to say is, we make our own decisions and not someone else. That of course is true and goes without saying. But I am more eager to respond to your comments about who is to blame and how much. So you don't want to say the devil made mankind do it. That to you is a cop out, a cowardly escape from one's responsibility by casting the blame on someone else. Do you think you would have faired better than Adam or Eve if you were in their shoes?

 

[FreeGrace]

Gol darn freegrace! Are You sure your gift is not pastor teacher? Thanks for all your posts and your study, you have challenged me to be more precise and go deeper into doctrine. It is a blessing to have you here.

Thanks, gr8grace3! Always nice to know there are posters who understand the truth.

I know I don't have the gift of pastor, but I think I might have the gift of teacher, because I so enjoy explaining what God's Word says.

 

[FreeGrace]

To be clear, God's wrath is against the worship of false gods, ungodliness is the byproduct of not esteeming God as God. His wrath is justified because all that is Godly in mankind, anything good, anything wholesome, anything beautiful, are His attributes as our Creator. Romans 1:19- 21.

The passage you cite here does not support your opinion about God's wrath. His wrath is clearly against ungodliness.

How men ever came to believe that such treasures were up to our discretion is the unthankfulness that darkens the heart.

I don't see any connection between our discussion and this sentence. Please clarify.

 

[childeye]

Can you do me a favor,please? If you were witnessing to an unbeliever, what would your message be to that person? For me, it just gets to the nuts and the bolts of things and I will have a better chance at seeing what you are saying.

I ask someone this question. "If you shot and killed an innocent man, and before he died he forgave you, would you love that man?" They always answer, yes. Then I say, "That's why I Love Jesus".

These are the 3 main points that I "see" you believing by what I have read.

1. God causes belief.

God is both the object of my belief and cause of my belief. The term 'belief' I am defining as, 'trust' in the Character of God so that I deem Him as trustworthy. The term 'Image' of God I am defining as how one imagines God to be. The object of belief is the Christ, or in other words, the Word of God made flesh. I would describe the cause or source of my belief as, the Word of God from creation, that is in me as a descendent of Adam. The Word in me is what recognizes the Word of God that is the Christ, the "True Image of God".

2. satan causes men to stay in unbelief.

This time 'belief' is being defined as a distrust in a negative connotation, so as to deem god untrustworthy. 'Image' of God again means how one imagines God to be. Satan has produced a false image of god, and corrupted mankind through belief in it. This image is one that is a liar, a self serving tyrant, a character that would sacrifice others to save himself. This character that Satan envisions god as, is needless to say untrustworthy. Through the accepting of god as this character through the subterfuge of Satan, mankind has become corrupted in their hearts and turned to disobedience.

3. Soft determinism/compatiblism ~~by trying to explain that man will be held accountable somehow, yet trying to maintain the Sovereignty/determinism of God in the first 2 points. Soft determinism/compatiblism in the end is determinism, It just has a lot of spin,intellectualism,confusion before that conclusion.....this is what I see in your answers, compatiblism.

I think it would help you understand me, if you knew that I believe we exist as we do, as flesh, to show the angels Who God is. Consequently mankind, made in God's Image, falls into darkness due to doubt in His own self. And in this darkness, is where The Word of God can then come in the flesh, in the midst of creation, and shine for all the Angels to see. And in these circumstances exists the necessary contrast, to truly appreciate the absence of God and the presence of God through witnessing the effects of each upon mankind.

Yes confusion is imminent due to trying to discuss Eternal mysteries in temporal terms.

 

[FreeGrace]

The way I see it, there is no power in a free will because it doesn't exist.

<sigh>

I've already explained my view. Why do you think whatever exists has to have power?

There is only choice?

Yes.

And if there is only One God, where is the choice?

3 passages on choice from God:
Deut 11, Deut 30, Josh 24:15, Isa 1:18-20 Please read the entire chapters in Deut.

I Grant that every waking moment we are choosing from one moment to the next.

End of discussion.

If I didn't choose to sit here I have by default chose to stand here or somewhere else. Do you see what I'm saying about choices?

No. I see confusion. You seem to admit there are choices, but then you seem to suggest that we don't make our own choices. But you haven't identified who is making those choices.

Life is choices constantly happening. Essentially you are saying life is choices. This becomes redundancy. So you choose to believe in free will and I don't. What's your reason? Because life is choices?

I believe in free will because holds us accountable for OUR choices. And because He Himself gives us choices. Again, Deut 11, 30, Josh 24:15, and Isa 1:18-20.

Contrary to what you might think, free will is a description of a certain type of will.

No, it itsn't. Will is desire. And we are free to desire whatever we want to desire.

Free is an adjective. It has nothing to do with available or unavailable options.

It has EVERYTHING to do with options. If there are no options from which to choose from, it doesn't matter what one desires. So the will isn't free to choose because there are no options from which to choose.

The word will in scripture means desire, not choice.

No problem. We choose what we desire. Is that better?

Please say what you think causes choices so that there is no ambiguity. Then I can respond appropriately with understanding of your position.

Our intellect. Which reasons, or not so much. Some people are reasonable, and some are quite unreasonable.

We don't cause all of our choices, that is easy to prove.

OK, prove it.

But of course what you meant to say is, we make our own decisions and not someone else. That of course is true and goes without saying.

Then you've just proved my view. Thanks.

But I am more eager to respond to your comments about who is to blame and how much.

You are to blame. For every decision you have ever made.

So you don't want to say the devil made mankind do it.

The devil CANNOT make mankind do anything. If that were true, it would already have been "game over".

That to you is a cop out, a cowardly escape from one's responsibility by casting the blame on someone else.

You have completely misunderstood me. You are to blame for your own choices and decisions. All of them.

We CANNOT blame anyone else for our choices.

Do you think you would have faired better than Adam or Eve if you were in their shoes?

Irrelevant question. Why? Because God didn't create me and put me in the garden. No one knows how they would act in that situation. And it doesn't even matter, because God DIDN'T put anyone else there. He put Adam and the woman there. Knowing all along HOW they would act. And we know too.

Because everyone was placed in time and space exactly where God wanted them to be, per Acts 17:25.

 

[childeye]

The passage you cite here does not support your opinion about God's wrath. His wrath is clearly against ungodliness.

I did say His wrath is against ungodliness. I just pointed out that ungodliness is a product of false imagery of God.


I don't see any connection between our discussion and this sentence. Please clarify.
Belief in free will claims that mankind has the discretion to accept or deny God's treasures via the ability to reason. This attitude is only possible through an unthankfulness for God's attributes in mankind.

 

[childeye]

<sigh>

I've already explained my view. Why do you think whatever exists has to have power?

Yes I know your view. You view is, choose good and don't choose bad because you are capable of both.

All power is from God. Even shadows need the Light. Even lies usurp the Truth. You would not know good or bad so as to choose, without God.

3 passages on choice from God:
Deut 11, Deut 30, Josh 24:15, Isa 1:18-20 Please read the entire chapters in Deut.

I have read all these. They do not support free will. They are used by you to show choices and their consequences presented by God. I already addressed this before. Remember? I told you that it doesn't matter what God presents, if one doesn't believe Him. My point was made and you agreed.

End of discussion.

Yes, end of what you are discussing, which is not what I am discussing.

No. I see confusion. You seem to admit there are choices, but then you seem to suggest that we don't make our own choices. But you haven't identified who is making those choices.

I admit there are choices/options. I admit we make choices/decisions. Go back and look at the record, I said that consistently many times.
I am discussing why a person chooses one way and not another. Just recently you saw that I said a mans choices shows what he loves. Consequently if his love changes, his choices follow accordingly. A good example is Paul choosing to put to death anyone preaching the gospel, and then choosing to preach the Gospel even if he is killed for preaching it. This shows a change of will/desire that comes from God.

I believe in free will because holds us accountable for OUR choices. And because He Himself gives us choices. Again, Deut 11, 30, Josh 24:15, and Isa 1:18-20.

Free will does not make someone accountable. Free will is the foundation for blame. So look at the above example of Paul. He is accountable to God for why he persecuted Christ, yet once his blindness was removed, he knew he could not help what he did.

No, it itsn't. Will is desire. And we are free to desire whatever we want to desire.

Of all the things you have said, this one is really out there. That doesn't even make sense since the word 'want' means desire. Here is what you said. I can desire whatever I desire. Can you desire to be a murderer of innocents? No you can't, case closed.

It has EVERYTHING to do with options. If there are no options from which to choose from, it doesn't matter what one desires. So the will isn't free to choose because there are no options from which to choose.

This is silly. So if I put say a cockroach in a box and put a partition in the box with a little hole. The cockroach now has two rooms from which to choose from and now the cockroach has a free will.

No problem. We choose what we desire. Is that better?

Yes, much better. It's a beginning.

Our intellect. Which reasons, or not so much. Some people are reasonable, and some are quite unreasonable.

Okay, so did you know that the ability to reason is just an exercise of pros and cons, accuse excuse, give take, etc...?
It's only as good as the knowledge it has to reason with. So that if someone thinks God is a myth, he reasons differently than He who knows God is Love. So right there men's choices are different and altered according to knowledge and ignorance. Which is why free choice/decision is a misnomer. Our wills are subject to knowledge and ignorance of Truth.

OK, prove it.

Sure. You're driving home and the road is closed because of a tanker spill. Now you must choose an alternate route to get home. This choice is called a choice of necessity which outside events caused you to do.

Then you've just proved my view. Thanks.

My pleasure.

 

[gr8grace3]

I ask someone this question. "If you shot and killed an innocent man, and before he died he forgave you, would you love that man?" They always answer, yes. Then I say, "That's why I Love Jesus".

What verse is this in the Bible?This is your witness or message to unbelievers? No gospel message? They always answer yes? So all men are saved?

And an unbeliever is going to go even farther with questions and beliefs that will poke holes in that.

So you killed a man and he forgave you and that caused you to love Jesus? Yes, I would love that man(that was not Christ) that I shot and killed, So I am good enough. So I am suppose to shoot a man and get him to forgive me so I can love Jesus like you?

Do you believe in the person of Jesus Christ and what He did for you? Or were you just elected to salvation?

 

[gr8grace3]

Yes confusion is imminent due to trying to discuss Eternal mysteries in temporal terms.

And I do hope and pray that I am pretty clear to all here that salvation is for all men and it is equal opportunity and equal privilege for all men.

And very clear that salvation is belief in Christ alone.

From my experience, anyone who wants to place salvation as a "eternal mystery" is a false teacher,unbeliever or a deceived believer.

 

[Gregg]

How does the will of a man effect and/or influence his being born from above? What in a man causes him to choose to place his faith in God?

Are these two different questions or is the second a rephrase of the first?

Same subject, two perspectives. Will you state your answer to either question?

 

[Obadiah]

A&T Guidelines state "Subsequent opposing responses should include references to supportive scripture relevant to the thread and offer explanation for the contrary understanding". This applies to everyone from here on out in this thread.

 

[FreeGrace]

Belief in free will claims that mankind has the discretion to accept or deny God's treasures via the ability to reason. This attitude is only possible through an unthankfulness for God's attributes in mankind.

No, free will doesn't claim that. The Bible itself reveals that. Deut 11, 30, Isa 1:18-20

It seems you view is that man does not have the "discretion" or ability to reason. How unbiblical. For Isa 1:18 refutes that view. God urges people to reason together with Him.

Further, Paul wrote in Rom 2 that even the Gentiles, who didn't have the Law, were a law unto themselves. Why?

Rom 2:14,15
14For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,15in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,

Since God put a conscience in everyone, no one has any excuse. Therefore, all men ARE able to reason. Or not.

It's a choice. No one is consistently reasonable or unreasonable. All people can be reasonable at times and unreasonable at other times.

 

[FreeGrace]

Yes I know your view. You view is, choose good and don't choose bad because you are capable of both. All power is from God.

Why do you continue to think that choosing requires "power"?

Even shadows need the Light.

I'm amused by your wordings. I didn't know shadows "needed" anything. It is clear that light creates (verb) shadows when shining on objects. A shadow is cast (verb) by light.

Even lies usurp the Truth. You would not know good or bad so as to choose, without God.

And God has given us His Truth. In spades. In writing and in the flesh.

I have read all these. They do not support free will. They are used by you to show choices and their consequences presented by God.

Because they are FREELY chosen, they do support free will. Free choice.

I admit there are choices/options. I admit we make choices/decisions. Go back and look at the record, I said that consistently many times.

So, what is the argument about, specifically?

I am discussing why a person chooses one way and not another.

Desire. As I said already. Do you do what you desire, or what you don't desire?

Just recently you saw that I said a mans choices shows what he loves. Consequently if his love changes, his choices follow accordingly.

Again, free will.

A good example is Paul choosing to put to death anyone preaching the gospel, and then choosing to preach the Gospel even if he is killed for preaching it. This shows a change of will/desire that comes from God.

His desires weren't forced on him. Which is what it seems you want to argue.

Free will does not make someone accountable. Free will is the foundation for blame.

Apparently you aren't aware of the direct link between being accountable and being blamed. They are synonymous.

So look at the above example of Paul. He is accountable to God for why he persecuted Christ, yet once his blindness was removed, he knew he could not help what he did.

Yes, he could have. He could have paid more attention to the miracles of Jesus, realized Jesus was Deity, and saw the prophecies of the OT being fulfilled in Him. But his eyes were closed. Speaking of which:
Acts 28:27 For the heart of this people has become dull, And with their ears they scarcely hear, And they have closed their eyes; Otherwise they might see with their eyes, And hear with their ears, And understand with their heart and return, And I would heal them.”’

When he opened his eyes, he saw clearly, and was healed. Choice.

Of all the things you have said, this one is really out there. That doesn't even make sense since the word 'want' means desire. Here is what you said. I can desire whatever I desire. Can you desire to be a murderer of innocents? No you can't, case closed.

Did King David desire/want to murder Bathsheba's husband? When the circumstances are such, yes, a person CAN desire to murder. All evil comes from the heart. Mark 7:21

This is silly. So if I put say a cockroach in a box and put a partition in the box with a little hole. The cockroach now has two rooms from which to choose from and now the cockroach has a free will.

Sure. Unless someone else (you) drags him from room to room.

Okay, so did you know that the ability to reason is just an exercise of pros and cons, accuse excuse, give take, etc...?
It's only as good as the knowledge it has to reason with. So that if someone thinks God is a myth, he reasons differently than He who knows God is Love.

So what? If he thinks God is a myth, it is ONLY because he wasn't paying attention to what God has actually REVEALED to him (Rom 1:19-20). Which was a choice.

So right there men's choices are different and altered according to knowledge and ignorance.

God has revealed Himself to everyone, which is why Rom 1:20 says that no one has an excuse. So ignorance is no excuse of the law. And Rom 2:14-15 further drives that doctrine home.

Which is why free choice/decision is a misnomer. Our wills are subject to knowledge and ignorance of Truth.

Free choice is absolutely NOT a misnomer. Are you choices free or is someone else making your choices for you? I'm sure your answer must be that you make your own choices. But you are free to identify anyone you want for the choices you make. But that can get a bit sticky. If God is making all your good choices, who's making all your bad choices?

Sure. You're driving home and the road is closed because of a tanker spill. Now you must choose an alternate route to get home. This choice is called a choice of necessity which outside events caused you to do.

Red herring. Totally irrelevant to the discussion of free choice. btw, even in this scenario, one can choose from several different routes to get home. Not just one.

 

[childeye]

What verse is this in the Bible?

Luke 23:34. Acts 7:60.

This is your witness or message to unbelievers?

Sometimes.

No gospel message?

This is a Gospel message. The Name Jesus is there and so is the Holy Spirit. It is the good news of God's Grace.

They always answer yes?

So far.

So all men are saved?

I hope so.

And an unbeliever is going to go even farther with questions and beliefs that will poke holes in that.

Hopefully the unbeliever will try. I've never seen Satan be able to poke holes in it, since the person has already admitted they would Love such a man. Any attempt by Satan to subdue the persons will through trying to poke holes in it becomes an argument against the persons own proclaimed conviction. No, Satan doesn't want to take the chance of being exposed in the psyche, so he would not venture into debating the Truth of the matter. His best tactic at this point, is to try and change the subject and draw the mind away from the conversation. And since I anticipate this, my next question becomes, "Does the Name of Jesus make you uncomfortable?"

So you killed a man and he forgave you and that caused you to love Jesus?
Yes, I would love that man(that was not Christ) that I shot and killed, So I am good enough. So I am suppose to shoot a man and get him to forgive me so I can love Jesus like you?

These I assume are hypotheticals. They are not even very good lies.

Do you believe in the person of Jesus Christ and what He did for you? Or were you just elected to salvation?

This question is a false dichotomy.

 

[childeye]

From my experience, anyone who wants to place salvation as a "eternal mystery" is a false teacher,unbeliever or a deceived believer.

Just so we're clear. What I mean by "eternal mysteries" is this. 'Eternal' pertains to the Kingdom of God which is Eternal. 'Mysteries' pertains to unknown secrets of that Eternal Kingdom of God. Matthew 13:11.

 

[childeye]

Same subject, two perspectives. Will you state your answer to either question?

How does the will of a man effect and/or influence his being born from above?
It doesn't.
John 1:13New International Version (NIV)
13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.

What in a man causes him to choose to place his faith in God?

The Holy Spirit in conjunction with the Love that is in a man. 1 Corinthians 12:3.

 

[childeye]

No, free will doesn't claim that. The Bible itself reveals that. Deut 11, 30, Isa 1:18-20

Deut 11, 30, Isa 1:18-20 reveals that those who believe in free will believe they have the discretion to accept or deny God's treasures via the ability to reason.

It seems you view is that man does not have the "discretion" or ability to reason. How unbiblical. For Isa 1:18 refutes that view. God urges people to reason together with Him.

God wants to reason with mankind so as to show it is unreasonable to do evil to others. Even because sin is irrational. That's my view, sin is irrational. Consequently I don't count God's treasures as up to my discretion, since they are the only sanity.

Further, Paul wrote in Rom 2 that even the Gentiles, who didn't have the Law, were a law unto themselves. Why?

Because Paul was pointing out that they knew how to do good without reading the letter of the law. Therefore he described this as having the law written on their hearts.

Rom 2:14,15
14For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,15in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,

Since God put a conscience in everyone, no one has any excuse. Therefore, all men ARE able to reason. Or not.

This is a contradiction in my reading of it: Therefore, all men ARE able to reason. Or not. I think you meant o say some men are unreasonable.

It's a choice. No one is consistently reasonable or unreasonable. All people can be reasonable at times and unreasonable at other times.

You see a choice/option here, in that a man can either be reasonable or unreasonable. That should not be conflated with the will, so as to say, man has a choice/decision to be reasonable or unreasonable.

The reasonable man could not choose to be unreasonable, and the unreasonable man could not choose to be reasonable. Even as the good tree cannot bear bad fruit and the bad tree cannot bear good fruit. Luke 6:43. This should not be taken to mean that the bad tree cannot be transformed into a good tree. It needs to be healed of the corruption behind the unreasonableness. Hence God says, let us reason together. But the believer in free will who believes the speck in their brothers eye is there by choice has his own speck which prevents him from helping his brother. Only those who see clearly, can remove the speck from their brothers eye. Luke 6:42

Every man has a conscience. But a defiled conscience is not reasonable, nor can it simply choose to be. Titus 1:15.

 

[FreeGrace]

Deut 11, 30, Isa 1:18-20 reveals that those who believe in free will believe they have the discretion to accept or deny God's treasures via the ability to reason.

No, it doesn't "reveal" any such thing. It reveals the choices that God offers; life or death. Pretty simple and straightforward, imho.

God wants to reason with mankind so as to show it is unreasonable to do evil to others. Even because sin is irrational. That's my view, sin is irrational. Consequently I don't count God's treasures as up to my discretion, since they are the only sanity.

Why do you bring "God's treasures" into the discussion? How are they related? The discussion is on freedom of choice, as I recall.

Because Paul was pointing out that they knew how to do good without reading the letter of the law. Therefore he described this as having the law written on their hearts.

So, when peopel don't do good, they chose not to. Freely.

This is a contradiction in my reading of it: Therefore, all men ARE able to reason. Or not. I think you meant o say some men are unreasonable.

Same thing. And, therefore, NOT a contradiction.

You see a choice/option here, in that a man can either be reasonable or unreasonable. That should not be conflated with the will, so as to say, man has a choice/decision to be reasonable or unreasonable.

Can you provide any evidence to support your view here? Of course anyone can be reasonable or unreasonable. What do you think keeps people from being either, since that is your view.

The reasonable man could not choose to be unreasonable, and the unreasonable man could not choose to be reasonable.

Again, an opinion without any evidence. You've already noted that circumstances influence one's choices. So, any reasonable person (so far) can become quite unreasonable, if the circumstances overwhelm him.

Even as the good tree cannot bear bad fruit and the bad tree cannot bear good fruit. Luke 6:43. This should not be taken to mean that the bad tree cannot be transformed into a good tree. It needs to be healed of the corruption behind the unreasonableness.

No, the verse is noting consistency in nature. As opposed to humankind, who isn't consistent. James expounded on this idea in James 3:3-12.

Hence God says, let us reason together.

Because man is able to, if he wants to.

But the believer in free will who believes the speck in their brothers eye is there by choice has his own speck which prevents him from helping his brother.

Of course we all are sinners. How does this relate to the discussion?

Only those who see clearly, can remove the speck from their brothers eye. Luke 6:42

More irrelevancy imho.

Every man has a conscience. But a defiled conscience is not reasonable, nor can it simply choose to be. Titus 1:15.

OK, explain what you mean by a "defiled conscience". I have no idea how this relates to the discussion.

 

[Gregg]

How does the will of a man effect and/or influence his being born from above?
It doesn't.
John 1:13New International Version (NIV)
13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.


The Holy Spirit in conjunction with the Love that is in a man. 1 Corinthians 12:3.

I gather from the sum of your posts:

1. The personal act of sinning is [actually] someone/something else doing the sinning, not the one making the decision to sin.
2. The act of his believing is [actually] someone/something else doing the believing, not the one making the decision to believe.
​

Whether or not the above is an accurate reflection of your understanding, you continue to sidestep the role of the individual in both sinning and believing.

Please be forthright, direct, simple in your replies, as there is no mystery here. God has revealed the mysteries to those of us who have been born from above.

And I would add that 'reason' is a function of the sentient mind. It is a faculty innate to man, and which influences his will to be obedient or disobedient to God.