Conception and Birth of Believers

[childeye]

Why do you continue to think that choosing requires "power"?

Because knowledge enables a man to make good decisions. If a man is ignorant of the knowledge of God, he is powerless.

I'm amused by your wordings. I didn't know shadows "needed" anything. It is clear that light creates (verb) shadows when shining on objects. A shadow is cast (verb) by light.


And God has given us His Truth. In spades. In writing and in the flesh.

And Satan has blocked the Light of truth with lies through misinterpretation of writing, and in the lust of the flesh, casting shadows on the hearts of men and usurping the Truth so as to rule like god through the power of darkness. 2 Corinthians 4:4. Ephesians 6:12. 1 Corinthians 4:4-6.

Because they are FREELY chosen, they do support free will. Free choice.

Just because we proclaim something as so doesn't make it so. You say the choice is freely made, and I say there are lies of Satan that deceive people into choosing the path that is not in their best interest.

So, what is the argument about, specifically?

I think we are mostly arguing semantics. To be specific, you view the will as free to choose, and I view the will as in servitude to higher powers higher than themselves.

Desire. As I said already. Do you do what you desire, or what you don't desire?

I see an issue of semantics here. I therefore present a lesson in the futility of language: I do what I desire, but what I desire is to have God's desires and not my desires. Unless of course, God's desires are my desires since He desires that I have His desires and I desire His desires. If I have God's desires, I would have no desires since He would desire that I have no desires. Therefore I do not even desire to desire. I desire not to desire.

I do not decide to desire not to desire, since I desire not to desire. If I decided not to desire, then I have not desired but decided. So I decided that to desire is not to decide. And I also decided that if I desire what God desires, then they are His desires not my desires. But I did decide that I decide what those desires are, but that God decides what I should decide and what I shouldn't decide. For to have the choice is not important to me but the right choice is important. I would rather not have a choice then have a choice if I could choose, since to not have a choice means I am in a place of my choice which is a place where there is no choice. Unless of course you count that choice that was made not by my choice. Which was the wrong choice which put me in a place where there is a choice.

Again, free will.

No, a man is not free to change his Love. It is the object of his love that draws out love. True worship is drawn out of the person by the object of worship, not through voluntary deliberation. It's the same for true Love.

His desires weren't forced on him. Which is what it seems you want to argue.

His desires are the product of what he believes to be true. Paul first thinks Jesus is the enemy of Truth. When Paul's blindness is removed he see he was deceived. Hence his desires were changed by the power of the Truth that removed the lies that compelled him to stone Steven.

Apparently you aren't aware of the direct link between being accountable and being blamed. They are synonymous.

You might think so, but they are not.. To give an account is to explain, so as to justify someone's actions. Blame is a negative connotation of accusation. Someone can blame someone without any account given. That's why the sheep of God are blameless even though they are accountable. They will be justified through Christ. Which means they will not blame anyone no matter what is done to them just like Jesus did.. That's why I don't believe in free will. I'd rather be an advocate than an adversary. I'd rather be like Jesus than the devil.

Yes, he could have. He could have paid more attention to the miracles of Jesus, realized Jesus was Deity, and saw the prophecies of the OT being fulfilled in Him.

This is speaking like an adversary.

But his eyes were closed.

This is speaking like an advocate.

Sure. Unless someone else (you) drags him from room to room.

Something hunger and a piece of cheese could accomplish.

God has revealed Himself to everyone, which is why Rom 1:20 says that no one has an excuse.

I think Romans 1:20 is saying there is no excuse for not esteeming God as God.

Free choice is absolutely NOT a misnomer. Are you choices free or is someone else making your choices for you? I'm sure your answer must be that you make your own choices. But you are free to identify anyone you want for the choices you make. But that can get a bit sticky. If God is making all your good choices, who's making all your bad choices?

If Christ lives in me how can I take credit? Because I chose to grab the lifeguard.

 

[childeye]

I gather from the sum of your posts:

1. The personal act of sinning is [actually] someone/something else doing the sinning, not the one making the decision to sin.
2. The act of his believing is [actually] someone/something else doing the believing, not the one making the decision to believe.
​

Whether or not the above is an accurate reflection of your understanding, you continue to sidestep the role of the individual in both sinning and believing.

It is not an accurate reflection at all. I'm not sidestepping a persons role in either sinning or believing. I am giving glory to the role of God as the Light of men and the power to bring to life that which is dead. I don't count the flesh as anything but the spirit is everything in the makeup of the individual. God is Spirit. God lives in a person even as their countenance. You can't ask if God did it or did the person do it. That is a false dichotomy. Likewise with sin for those who have the countenance of Satan's false god. Albeit, Satan deceives through the lusts of the flesh while God is Love.

So I answered your questions like you asked I and provided scripture in support. There should be no confusion. Do you agree or not? If not, how do you explain John 1:13 and 1 Corinthians 12:3 ? Please reciprocate.

Please be forthright, direct, simple in your replies, as there is no mystery here. God has revealed the mysteries to those of us who have been born from above.

I feel I have been forthright, direct and simple, Gregg. If the mysteries of the Kingdom of God have been revealed to you, then you should know that the term Christ means the True Image of God sent by God. That is all I have reiterated over and over on this thread. Also you should know the character changing implications of what that means as pertains to the way the will operates. In other words, the will is by no means free from imagery of god. Even atheists imagine no god. I don't see why that is so difficult to understand. 1+1=2 therefore 2-1 =1.

On second thought, I believe people don't understand it, because their belief in free will cancels out the possibility of any character changing going on apart from the will of man. God wouldn't dare touch our free will. Nonsense, God made every part of you. His Spirit is our Light. Our Light is His Spirit.

And I would add that 'reason' is a function of the sentient mind. It is a faculty innate to man, and which influences his will to be obedient or disobedient to God.

Reason is a function of the sentient mind, true. It is not however innate to man. Animals reason, just not on the same level of intellect as humans do. Also, reason does not influence a man's will to be disobedient or obedient. Reasoning is simply a process of analysis as a means of arriving to a decision. The image of God inside the man influences the reasoning to be disobedient or obedient depending upon whether that image is Holy or corrupt in the mind of the person. Otherwise the Christ is just an option and not the power of God.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"Why do you continue to think that choosing requires "power"?"

Because knowledge enables a man to make good decisions. If a man is ignorant of the knowledge of God, he is powerless.

This makes no sense to me. Ignorant men still make choices. They aren't powerless.

And Satan has blocked the Light of truth with lies through misinterpretation of writing, and in the lust of the flesh, casting shadows on the hearts of men and usurping the Truth so as to rule like god through the power of darkness. 2 Corinthians 4:4. Ephesians 6:12. 1 Corinthians 4:4-6.

And men still make free choices.

Just because we proclaim something as so doesn't make it so. You say the choice is freely made, and I say there are lies of Satan that deceive people into choosing the path that is not in their best interest.

And such people FREELY chose their path. The woman CHOSE to believe the deception of the serpent. She wasn't forced. The serpent didn't make her choice for her. And she was held accountable by God.

I think we are mostly arguing semantics. To be specific, you view the will as free to choose, and I view the will as in servitude to higher powers higher than themselves.

Since we seem to be talking over each other, why continue?

But since you bring up "servitude", let's see what Paul said about that:
Rom 6:16 - Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness? NASB

Seems clear to me that Paul was indicating that the action is ourselves "when WE present ourselves…as slaves for obedience".

I see an issue of semantics here. I therefore present a lesson in the futility of language

So, why should we continue, if language is futile?

[QUTOE]I do what I desire, but what I desire is to have God's desires and not my desires.[/QUOTE]
And the problem is that you STILL have your own evil and fleshly desires. That was exactly Paul's point in Rom 7.

Unless of course, God's desires are my desires since He desires that I have His desires and I desire His desires. If I have God's desires, I would have no desires since He would desire that I have no desires. Therefore I do not even desire to desire. I desire not to desire.

I don't see anything here to suggest or hint that God causes us to have His desires. As you yourself said, "since He diesires that I have His desires". Good. We agree.

I do not decide to desire not to desire, since I desire not to desire. If I decided not to desire, then I have not desired but decided. So I decided that to desire is not to decide. And I also decided that if I desire what God desires, then they are His desires not my desires.

Loose translation: I have chosen to have God's desires.

But I did decide that I decide what those desires are, but that God decides what I should decide and what I shouldn't decide.

Regardless, you still have to choose His desires in order to have them. He doesn't force any of them on you.

For to have the choice is not important to me but the right choice is important. I would rather not have a choice then have a choice if I could choose, since to not have a choice means I am in a place of my choice which is a place where there is no choice.

Wow. Circular.

Unless of course you count that choice that was made not by my choice. Which was the wrong choice which put me in a place where there is a choice.

This is just way confused. I have no idea what your point is here.

No, a man is not free to change his Love.

Oh, I see. So when married people get divorced, their love didn't change, but they just wanted a change???? lol

It is the object of his love that draws out love.

No kidding! And when that object no longer draws out love, he is free to change his love.

You might think so, but they are not.. To give an account is to explain, so as to justify someone's actions. Blame is a negative connotation of accusation.

Since "accusation" is just as negative a connotation, you have not point. And to "give an account" means one is being held to their actions.

 

[gr8grace3]

I think Romans 1:20 is saying there is no excuse for not esteeming God as God.

Here are 2 excuses that you gave us in this very post.

1. I didn't have the Knowledge.
2. satan made me do it.

Because knowledge enables a man to make good decisions. If a man is ignorant of the knowledge of God, he is powerless.

And Satan has blocked the Light of truth with lies through misinterpretation of writing, and in the lust of the flesh, casting shadows on the hearts of men and usurping the Truth so as to rule like god through the power of darkness.

I think we are mostly arguing semantics. To be specific, you view the will as free to choose, and I view the will as in servitude to higher powers higher than themselves.

No freegraces view is opposite of the semantics you use in your definition.

 

[gr8grace3]

I gather from the sum of your posts:

1. The personal act of sinning is [actually] someone/something else doing the sinning, not the one making the decision to sin.
2. The act of his believing is [actually] someone/something else doing the believing, not the one making the decision to believe.
​

Whether or not the above is an accurate reflection of your understanding, you continue to sidestep the role of the individual in both sinning and believing.

Please be forthright, direct, simple in your replies, as there is no mystery here. God has revealed the mysteries to those of us who have been born from above.

That is my take on it.

 

[Gregg]

So I answered your questions like you asked I and provided scripture in support. There should be no confusion. Do you agree or not? If not, how do you explain John 1:13 and 1 Corinthians 12:3 ? Please reciprocate.

John 1:13 states that Believers are born of God; not as a descendant of the first Adam but as a child of God, a new creation in Christ; these things according to God's will that eternal life will come to be in and through His Son Jesus Christ (Eph 1:4). The preceding verse in John 1 addresses faith and believing, "But as many as received Him, to them He gave authority to become children of God, to the ones believing into His name" (John 1:12 LITV). A man must receive Jesus Christ and believe into Him. God does not receive Christ for us, nor does He believe for us. However, God makes the decision possible, as He is directly and intimately involved in our decision making process.

If the mysteries of the Kingdom of God have been revealed to you, then you should know that the term Christ means the True Image of God sent by God.

Christ has been revealed to me by the Father, and I believe in Him crucified and resurrected for my salvation and eternal life; He is my God and Savior, and now I am a resident in the Kingdom of God, a member of the body of Christ. His Spirit, that is the Holy Spirit of God, now indwells me. Mystery revealed!

I understand your reference to 1Cor 12:13. The Holy Spirit works and ministers to the heart of a man making it possible for him to know, understand, and believe - but the Holy Spirit does not believe on our behalf or for us. Placing faith in God is the man's action; receiving Christ is the action of the believer [albeit with God's Presence, assistance, influence, piercing of the heart, calling out].

Even though I believe, I give God full credit for making it possible for me to believe.

'Christ' means Anointed One, Messiah. He is 'image of God' (2Cor 4:4), and His exact representation (Heb 1:3). Who could have imagined God in the flesh being both Messiah and the Lamb of God, both High Priest and King?

On second thought, I believe people don't understand it, because their belief in free will cancels out the possibility of any character changing going on apart from the will of man.

Your saying 'their belief cancels out any possibility' does not seem to fit into your understanding here. However, some things are impossible with man, but not so with God. The exercise of our will, and the act of our believing is not without God's involvement and influence. The converse is true as well, as God hardens some hearts; not arbitrarily but according to His sovereign and infinite Person.

 

[childeye]

No, it doesn't "reveal" any such thing. It reveals the choices that God offers; life or death. Pretty simple and straightforward, imho.

To me God is not offering death. God is giving an ultimatum. God is also implying there's something wrong inside of us.

Why do you bring "God's treasures" into the discussion? How are they related? The discussion is on freedom of choice, as I recall.

As I recall, the discussion is about reasoning being proof of free will. And I am pointing out that sin is not rational.

So, when people don't do good, they chose not to. Freely.

No they chose to serve sin because they were deceived.

Same thing. And, therefore, NOT a contradiction.

I agree there is no contradiction. But still I don't agree with the statement, because you said, that every man has a conscience so there's no excuse. Every man can reason or be unreasonable. The conscience is the very problem.

Can you provide any evidence to support your view here? Of course anyone can be reasonable or unreasonable. What do you think keeps people from being either, since that is your view.

This is what I said:
"You see a choice/option here, in that a man can either be reasonable or unreasonable. That should not be conflated with the will, so as to say, man has a choice/decision to be reasonable or unreasonable".
So you see above, nowhere do I say that men could not be reasonable or unreasonable. I said men can't choose/decide to be reasonable or unreasonable. If someone says to me, you're being unreasonable, I can consider that. But I don't set out to choose to be reasonable or unreasonable.

Again, an opinion without any evidence. You've already noted that circumstances influence one's choices. So, any reasonable person (so far) can become quite unreasonable, if the circumstances overwhelm him.

I didn't say a reasonable man could not become unreasonable. I said, 'The reasonable man could not choose to be unreasonable, and the unreasonable man could not choose to be reasonable'.

No, the verse is noting consistency in nature. As opposed to humankind, who isn't consistent. James expounded on this idea in James 3:3-12.

I like your choice of scripture, and I accept your commentary, even as what is in the abundance of a man's heart comes out of his mouth. Matthew 12:34. But this just furthers my point that men have something inside them which is either corrupt or good and therefore a reasonable man does not choose to be unreasonable and an unreasonable man cannot choose to be reasonable.

Because man is able to, if he wants to.

Well this is precisely my point. "wants to". Wants to, is the same as desires to, is the same as wills to. No reasonable man wills to be unreasonable and no unreasonable man wills to be reasonable. No good tree can bear bad fruit and no bad tree can bear good fruit, for out of the mouth comes what is in the abundance of the heart. That's my point the will is governed by what is in the heart. We need God to reason with us and yet some men do not wish to be reasonable, reason enabled, sin is irrational.

Of course we all are sinners. How does this relate to the discussion?

The way I see it is, a free will believer supposes that it's a simple matter of choice to sin or not sin. He therefore does not seek to comprehend and unravel the lie that is the speck in his brothers eye. As for me, I do not see things as a simple choice even because I don't believe in free will.. I see a lie behind and before every act of sin that can be exposed by the Truth. Once exposed the victim is set free from the lie that was the impetus for the sin. John 8:32.

OK, explain what you mean by a "defiled conscience". I have no idea how this relates to the discussion.

You said this: "Since God put a conscience in everyone, no one has any excuse. Therefore, all men ARE able to reason. Or not."
I responded: "Every man has a conscience. But a defiled conscience is not reasonable, nor can it simply choose to be". Titus 1:15.

To me, a defiled conscience is a guilty conscience. It is unreasonable because it is in defiance of Truth. Not that one can choose to not hear it, but that because of pride they do not want to. I believe pride is the product of the effects of the knowledge of good and evil.

 

[gr8grace3]

It is not an accurate reflection at all.

Yes it is. We just have to many "guidelines" that we have to follow to be "nice" to you. Your deceived and these guys have the truth for ya.

 

[childeye]

Here are 2 excuses that you gave us in this very post.

1. I didn't have the Knowledge.
2. Satan made me do it.

When I say the knowledge of God, I am referring to the Christ, the power of God through the revelation of knowing Him in Person. Romans 1 is referring to esteeming God as God not in the Person of Christ, but as the Eternal power at the Godhead. Those are two different things. For Romans 1 describes men as making images of god that are corrupt and in the likeness of corruptible men and animals and creeping things, and everything that is not God. There is no excuse for that, because what can be known of God, before the Christ, is manifested in us through His given attributes. They are not the attributes of golden calves or creeping things. They are love and compassion and empathy, mercy and understanding.

1. I never said I didn't have the knowledge to excuse myself for counting God as a creeping thing. I said knowledge is necessary for good decisions. I have said in other posts that I believe Adam was tricked into accepting a false image of god.
2. I never said "Satan made me do it". I said Satan tempts with lies and subterfuge. Anyone who has ever sinned and been corrected by God knows that. Otherwise there can be no Godly sorrow, no true repentance. That is my personal account and testimony.

No freegraces view is opposite of the semantics you use in your definition.

You could look at it that way. It's not my definition of free will, however. It comes from the dictionary of the English language. Free will means men make all choices apart from the compelling or restraining of God or fate. Since God is the Eternal Spirit of Love within us, as per Romans 1, I see that as an impossibility. Since we all have the knowledge of good and evil, that's fate.

 

[childeye]

Yes it is. We just have to many "guidelines" that we have to follow to be "nice" to you. Your deceived and these guys have the truth for ya.

What Truth is it that is not allowed on this forum? If you love me, correct me.

 

[FreeGrace]

To me God is not offering death. God is giving an ultimatum. God is also implying there's something wrong inside of us.

I believe that both Deut 11 and 30 are quite clear about the offer God has made. You may call it an ultimatum, but it is an offer. And He was gracious enough to warn of the consequences of the wrong choice, which is death. And guess what? Many of the Jews didn't believe Him and ended up dying. Go figure. And, their choice was freely made. They had the offer, they didn't believe it, or take God seriously, and suffered the consequences.

So whether it was an ultimatum or not, doesn't matter. They freely didn't believe His offer.

As I recall, the discussion is about reasoning being proof of free will. And I am pointing out that sin is not rational.

What does that prove?

No they chose to serve sin because they were deceived.

Why were they deceived? The Bible clears that up for us:
2 Tim 4:3 - For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears

Those who are deceived do not endure sound doctrine (they don't like what they hear) and they have itching ears, meaning they seek what they WANT to hear.

I agree there is no contradiction. But still I don't agree with the statement, because you said, that every man has a conscience so there's no excuse. Every man can reason or be unreasonable. The conscience is the very problem.

No, the conscience is the SOLUTION to the problem. I think you have it backwards. Paul explained it this way:
Rom 2:14,15 - 14For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,15in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them

Who gave humans their conscience? God did. So they "instinctively" know right from wrong.

I said men can't choose/decide to be reasonable or unreasonable. If someone says to me, you're being unreasonable, I can consider that. But I don't set out to choose to be reasonable or unreasonable.

OK, if you don't choose to be unreasonable, who did choose for you to be so unreasonable??

I didn't say a reasonable man could not become unreasonable. I said, 'The reasonable man could not choose to be unreasonable, and the unreasonable man could not choose to be reasonable'.

So who's yanking their chains then?

I like your choice of scripture, and I accept your commentary, even as what is in the abundance of a man's heart comes out of his mouth. Matthew 12:34. But this just furthers my point that men have something inside them which is either corrupt or good and therefore a reasonable man does not choose to be unreasonable and an unreasonable man cannot choose to be reasonable.

Yet, your point is refuted by the frequently repeated fact that both kinds can and do change over.

Well this is precisely my point. "wants to". Wants to, is the same as desires to, is the same as wills to. No reasonable man wills to be unreasonable and no unreasonable man wills to be reasonable.

So who's doing all the chain yanking then?

Is this just some cosmic joke or struggle between God and the devil trying to yank our chains? That seems to be your conclusion.

No good tree can bear bad fruit and no bad tree can bear good fruit, for out of the mouth comes what is in the abundance of the heart.

OK, so the question becomes "what is being stored in the heart?" And that is a free choice. If one spends a lot of time being jealous of others, vindictive towards others, lusting after others, etc, that becomes the "abundance" of the heart.

That's my point the will is governed by what is in the heart.

And we are responsible and accountable for what WE store into that heart. Psa 119:11 says "thy word have I hid in my heart, that I might not sin against thee". David was very wise.

We need God to reason with us and yet some men do not wish to be reasonable, reason enabled, sin is irrational.

Which demonstrates my point: God wants to reason, and some choose to not reason. Just as some choose NOT to listen. Consider these verses: (NASB)
2 Chron 33:10 - The LORD spoke to Manasseh and his people, but they paid no attention.
Neh 9:34 - “For our kings, our leaders, our priests and our fathers have not kept Your law Or paid attention to Your commandments and Your admonitions with which You have admonished them.
Prov 1:24 - “Because I called and you refused, I stretched out my hand and no one paid attention;
Isa 48:18 - “If only you had paid attention to My commandments! Then your well-being would have been like a river,
And your righteousness like the waves of the sea.

I see only free choices to not pay attention.

The way I see it is, a free will believer supposes that it's a simple matter of choice to sin or not sin.

I'm not sure you're seeing it very clearly then. Please don't make such broad assumptions about how those you may disagree with see things or supposes.

He therefore does not seek to comprehend and unravel the lie that is the speck in his brothers eye.

Just more unfounded assumption about what others think.

As for me, I do not see things as a simple choice even because I don't believe in free will.. I see a lie behind and before every act of sin that can be exposed by the Truth. Once exposed the victim is set free from the lie that was the impetus for the sin. John 8:32.

I would expect all believers understand that all sin comes from lies. Rom 1:18 supports that. But those believers who are unfamiliar with Scripture may believe any old thing.

You said this: "Since God put a conscience in everyone, no one has any excuse. Therefore, all men ARE able to reason. Or not."
I responded: "Every man has a conscience. But a defiled conscience is not reasonable, nor can it simply choose to be". Titus 1:15.

Please explain specifically how Titus 1:15 supports your claim, as I don't see it. Also, please define and describe a "defiled conscience" as opposted to an "undefiled conscience". What's the difference and how do you know the difference? All men are under sin, per Rom 3:9, 23. So your statement seems irrelevant.

To me, a defiled conscience is a guilty conscience.

Guilty of what, specfically? All men are sinners. Therefore, all men are guilty of sin. How does this support your premise?

It is unreasonable because it is in defiance of Truth.

Are you aware that believers can be either reasonable or unreasonable at times?

Not that one can choose to not hear it, but that because of pride they do not want to.

Uh, 'scuze me, but that's a free choice. By your own words: "they do NOT WANT TO". No one made them to NOT WANT TO, and no one forced them to NOT WANT TO. They just didn't want to.

I believe pride is the product of the effects of the knowledge of good and evil.

Sure. But how does that support your premise?

 

[gr8grace3]

What Truth is it that is not allowed on this forum? If you love me, correct me.

I do apologize childeye. My freewill got the best of me

My heart is that we know the truth and I do love you. I will refrain from making statements like that to you. I am far from the "hothead' I used to be but it still creeps up on me every once and a while. Sorry.

 

[childeye]

I do apologize childeye. My freewill got the best of me

My heart is that we know the truth and I do love you. I will refrain from making statements like that to you. I am far from the "hothead' I used to be but it still creeps up on me every once and a while. Sorry.

It's understandable gr8grace3. But while you are in a better mood towards me, would it be too much to ask, that you consider how is it that darkness falls upon someone's heart so as to hate someone? For I do not believe for one second that you freely chose to get mad at me. I believe that what I am saying about free will is attacking a doctrine that you hold to be true. I don't blame you, for I am just like you. There is a pride in us that is a vanity. So it is I say, our wills are not free, even because there is this stupid pride in us that makes us into fools that we don't want to be. So forget about it, I'm glad you got mad at me, so I can forgive all the stupid things I have done because of pride. You are my brother and you can smack me anytime you wish.

 

[gr8grace3]

It's understandable gr8grace3. But while you are in a better mood towards me, would it be too much to ask, that you consider how is it that darkness falls upon someone's heart so as to hate someone? For I do not believe for one second that you freely chose to get mad at me. I believe that what I am saying about free will is attacking a doctrine that you hold to be true. I don't blame you, for I am just like you. There is a pride in us that is a vanity. So it is I say, our wills are not free, even because there is this stupid pride in us that makes us into fools that we don't want to be. So forget about it, I'm glad you got mad at me, so I can forgive all the stupid things I have done because of pride. You are my brother and you can smack me anytime you wish.

I was not mad at you and I said it out of love.

Pride, I contend that we would not even have the word pride in our vocabulary if it were not for freewill. Was satans pride created by and out from the Character and nature of God?

Isaiah 14~~
12“How you have fallen from heaven,
O star of the morning, son of the dawn!
You have been cut down to the earth,
You who have weakened the nations!

13“But you said in your heart,
‘I will ascend to heaven;
I will raise my throne above the stars of God,
And I will sit on the mount of assembly
In the recesses of the north.

14‘I will ascend above the heights of the clouds;
I will make myself like the Most High.’

My answer for 'hate' would be the same. If satan hates us and if it was not his freewill, God created his hate for us.

 

[childeye]

So whether it was an ultimatum or not, doesn't matter. They freely didn't believe His offer.

Okay, now you've brought up a new term, "freely believe". Why not just call it what it is, ignorance of what's true? By this you would mean free faith, free to put their faith in whoever, wherever and in whatever? I don't know what to believe. This to me is just another equivocation. You can stamp free over whatever you want. Meanwhile, I still believe there's something wrong in the reasoning of the mind that would conclude that one's Maker is untrustworthy. Such thoughts are self defeating vanity, whether they take the form of pride or shame.

What does that prove?

It proves that sin is based upon a deception ,a fabrication, an illusion, an false imagining. It proves that anyone whose reasoning ends with doing unto others what they would not want done to them, is reasoning upon a lie, that they think is true. Consequently the choice to sin is not coming from a sound reasoning, which means it is not freely made but the product of a corrupt heart and mind.

Why were they deceived? The Bible clears that up for us:
2 Tim 4:3 - For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears

I'm looking, still looking.This isn't saying why they are deceived. It does say they follow their own lusts, but lusts are insatiable and not something someone chooses to have. This is describing an alarming future for humanity which could be applicable now. Again, something is wrong with people who don't endure sound doctrine and it isn't simply because they chose poorly, believed freely, willed casually, moved carelessly.

Those who are deceived do not endure sound doctrine (they don't like what they hear) and they have itching ears, meaning they seek what they WANT to hear.

Of course you are right that the deceived seek what they want to hear even as they do what they want to do, just as believers in Christ seek what they want to hear and do what they want to do. The difference is the deceived are deceived and their wants are contrary to Life.

No, the conscience is the SOLUTION to the problem. I think you have it backwards. Paul explained it this way:
Rom 2:14,15 - 14For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,15in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them

You misunderstand me. I'm saying the problem is in the conscience. For example before eating the knowledge of good and evil they did not feel shame about being naked and yet afterward they did. Perhaps you will say they were ashamed because they disobeyed God.

For I would agree they could be guilty that they ate from the tree which God told them not to eat from, but it also could be exactly why God told them not to eat of it, so they wouldn't see their nakedness and know pride. For scriptures specifically say that when they ate, their eyes were opened and they saw that they were naked. Also God asked, "who told you that you were naked? Did you eat from the tree I had commanded you to not eat from?" Genesis 3:11. This implies to me that the shame of nakedness came from eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil not for disobeying God. This caused them to find a fault in themselves that they did not find before. God did not find something wrong with them being naked either, for He had made them just as He had wanted them to be in innocence of such things. So there is a problem in the conscience due to the knowledge of good and evil. People find faults in themselves and one another that are inevitable since all fall short of the glory of God. People have the sensitivity of pride and consequently shame.

Who gave humans their conscience? God did. So they "instinctively" know right from wrong.

Yes we know right from wrong, but only according to the image of god we hold to be true. Therefore, the Character of whoever sits on the mercy seat of the conscience, is the ultimate decider in our conscience, since he sits as the balance between accuse and excuse. The devil sets the bar so high on the accuse side that he disqualifies himself. Matthew 23:13.

OK, if you don't choose to be unreasonable, who did choose for you to be so unreasonable??

No one chose for me to be unreasonable. It is pride that makes men unreasonable.

So who's yanking their chains then?

It's not a question of who's yanking their chains? It's a question of what are they believing that's untrue? The devil is an example of pride. Why is he proud? Pride is a vanity inherent in creation. Vanity begins by gradually taking God and His attributes for granted, eventually growing into pride.

Yet, your point is refuted by the frequently repeated fact that both kinds can and do change over.

It is not refuted. In fact if you review the record, I explicitly said that it doesn't mean a tree couldn't change.

So who's doing all the chain yanking then?
Is this just some cosmic joke or struggle between God and the devil trying to yank our chains? That seems to be your conclusion.

To me, the big picture, is that God is revealing Himself in the midst of all speculation of Who He is. He dose it this way as a means to destroy the circumstance of vanity that happens inl creation so as to bring forth an Everlasting Kingdom without any corruption.

OK, so the question becomes "what is being stored in the heart?" And that is a free choice.
If one spends a lot of time being jealous of others, vindictive towards others, lusting after others, etc, that becomes the "abundance" of the heart.
And we are responsible and accountable for what WE store into that heart. Psa 119:11 says "thy word have I hid in my heart, that I might not sin against thee". David was very wise.

You have chosen a powerful scripture in Psalm 119. Nobody speaks like this without the greatest esteem and profound understanding of the worth of God in the mind and the soul. Hence the will is utterly dependent upon God lest it become an abomination. That is why I don't believe in free will.
Have you ever been jealous, vindictive, lusting? These things are not desirable and no one would choose to have them.

Which demonstrates my point: God wants to reason, and some choose to not reason. Just as some choose NOT to listen. Consider these verses: (NASB)
2 Chron 33:10 - The LORD spoke to Manasseh and his people, but they paid no attention.
Neh 9:34 - “For our kings, our leaders, our priests and our fathers have not kept Your law Or paid attention to Your commandments and Your admonitions with which You have admonished them.
Prov 1:24 - “Because I called and you refused, I stretched out my hand and no one paid attention;
Isa 48:18 - “If only you had paid attention to My commandments! Then your well-being would have been like a river,
And your righteousness like the waves of the sea.
I see only free choices to not pay attention.

Well of course you do because you believe in free will. That is what you reason upon as true, how could you see otherwise? But look at Psalm 119. That person knows the worth of God. These people above do not. It reminds me of the parable of the wedding feast and how no one cared to come because they had better things to do. So he got the beggars and the lowly and invited them.

I'm not sure you're seeing it very clearly then. Please don't make such broad assumptions about how those you may disagree with see things or suppose
Just more unfounded assumption about what others think.

Sorry, just forthrightly and honestly expressing the overall impression I've been left with. Everything is a free choice. Jealousy, charity, pride, humility, backstabbing, forgiveness, blame, praise, cursing, blessing, murder, heaven, hell, God , the devil, listening, not paying attention, living, dying, etc,etc,etc...
Continued.

 

[gr8grace3]

It proves that sin is based upon a deception ,a fabrication, an illusion, an false imagining. It proves that anyone whose reasoning ends with doing unto others what they would not want done to them, is reasoning upon a lie, that they think is true. Consequently the choice to sin is not coming from a sound reasoning, which means it is not freely made but the product of a corrupt heart and mind.

James 4:17~~New American Standard Bible
Therefore, to one who knows the right thing to do and does not do it, to him it is sin.

 

[childeye]

I was not mad at you and I said it out of love.

Okay you weren't mad. and I thank you for caring about me.

Pride, I contend that we would not even have the word pride in our vocabulary if it were not for freewill. Was satans pride created by and out from the Character and nature of God?

No pride is not an attribute of God, it is vanity. Here's the problem, Free will is an equivocation. So that from belief in it I can say, " if I have pride, it is because I have a free will since it is not of God". Yet I can also say, "If I don't have pride, it is because I have a free will since it is of God. Anyone who reasons upon free will is equivocating. Pride is a vanity. No one chooses to be Proud. How do I know this? Because pride goeth before a fall. That means you don't see it coming.

Isaiah 14~~
12“How you have fallen from heaven,
O star of the morning, son of the dawn!
You have been cut down to the earth,
You who have weakened the nations!

13“But you said in your heart,
‘I will ascend to heaven;
I will raise my throne above the stars of God,
And I will sit on the mount of assembly
In the recesses of the north.

14‘I will ascend above the heights of the clouds;
I will make myself like the Most High.’

My answer for 'hate' would be the same. If satan hates us and if it was not his freewill, God created his hate for us.

If God created Satan with a free will so that he was able to hate us, God created his ability to hate us.
There are much better answers for why pride/ hate happens than free will.

 

[childeye]

James 4:17~~New American Standard Bible
Therefore, to one who knows the right thing to do and does not do it, to him it is sin.

Please explain, how does this refute that sin is irrational? Did you consider that one can know it is wrong to steal and do it any way because they think they're going to get something that in the end they will not get?

 

[childeye]

Please explain specifically how Titus 1:15 supports your claim, as I don't see it. Also, please define and describe a "defiled conscience" as opposted to an "undefiled conscience". What's the difference and how do you know the difference? All men are under sin, per Rom 3:9, 23. So your statement seems irrelevant.

Titus 1:15 speaks of certain men who were speaking falsehood about others and they have a defiled conscience. I used this scripture to show men who are unreasonable. I don't see how Romans 3:9, 23 has anything to do with this. We're all under sin, but we're not all walking with defiled consciences.

Guilty of what, specfically? All men are sinners. Therefore, all men are guilty of sin. How does this support your premise?

How should I know what these men are guilty of? I don't think we're connecting here.

Are you aware that believers can be either reasonable or unreasonable at times?

Of course, I've already said that. Some even reason better than others.

Uh, 'scuze me, but that's a free choice. By your own words: "they do NOT WANT TO". No one made them to NOT WANT TO, and no one forced them to NOT WANT TO. They just didn't want to.

They don't want to because of pride. They didn't just decide with their free will, I think I'll be filled with pride now.

Sure. But how does that support your premise?

I don't think we're talking about the same thing. You say sure yet you don't see the support for the premise. The knowledge of good and evil is in every person as far as I know. That's an antecedent event that affects all men. It's not an act of free will.

I've not been able to keep up with all your posts. I don't see how you find the time. I especially am loathe to answer your questions about the futility of words that I wrote. I still can't believe you even understood it or at least some of it. But I am enjoying conversing with you. I think we have hijacked Greggs thread and need to address him more. I would like to start a thread about some subject matter relevant to what we are discussing. The conscience, the defiled conscience, the knowledge of good and evil. I will do it, God willing.

 

[childeye]

God does not receive Christ for us, nor does He believe for us. However, God makes the decision possible, as He is directly and intimately involved in our decision making process.

You articulated this well. It made me think of this scripture.
Matthew 22:8-10King James Version (KJV)
8 Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy.
9 Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.
10 So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests.

Christ has been revealed to me by the Father, and I believe in Him crucified and resurrected for my salvation and eternal life; He is my God and Savior, and now I am a resident in the Kingdom of God, a member of the body of Christ. His Spirit, that is the Holy Spirit of God, now indwells me. Mystery revealed!

Why did you believe?

Even though I believe, I give God full credit for making it possible for me to believe.

Me too.

'Christ' means Anointed One, Messiah. He is 'image of God' (2Cor 4:4), and His exact representation (Heb 1:3). Who could have imagined God in the flesh being both Messiah and the Lamb of God, both High Priest and King?

Indeed it is mind altering and an ever growing source of inspiration.

Your saying 'their belief cancels out any possibility' does not seem to fit into your understanding here. However, some things are impossible with man, but not so with God. The exercise of our will, and the act of our believing is not without God's involvement and influence. The converse is true as well, as God hardens some hearts; not arbitrarily but according to His sovereign and infinite Person.

The thing is, I cannot separate the love that I feel or rather experience in life from God since he is Love. I believe in Jesus because the Love inside me recognizes Love on the cross. So to me God causes me to believe. Does that make sense?