Conception and Birth of Believers

[Gregg]

I believe your answers are the same as mine just said differently.

except that you have not exercised your will in believing, as if your believing is passive.

I say that Love spoke in my heart recognizing the Love in Christ on the cross, and you say the Father showed Christ to you.

I saw the work of God in Christ crucified and resurrected. I understood that I must trust Him, and so I professed the LORD Jesus Christ and believed that He was crucified and resurrected. I saw His love, but love did not become a part of my character for a while. I did not fall in love with the LORD immediately, but knowing His will I became obedient to His command to believe, and so I believed. My believing was a deliberate decision, not motivated by my love or based upon any love from me, but out of need - I was lost and wandering and rebellious and destructive to the core. Experiential love came later as a fruit of the Spirit.

You say you exercised your will, and I say God moved my will through knowledge of the Truth revealed. So why do you believe in free will when you admit that the Father revealed the son to you?

A Revelation from God is not the same thing as believing. The former is from God, and the later is from man. My belief did not cause my birth from above, but was a condition of his giving eternal life to me.

God does not repent for someone. He does not believe for someone. A man must repent and believe; granted . . . God is active and working in the process.

Are you saying you believe you could have chosen not to believe even after God showed you?

Yes, and many have. The Pharisees knew who Jesus was, and yet they did not believe in Him for righteousness, salvation, or eternal life.

Our Father leads men to Christ (Jn 6:44), but then we must come to Christ (Jn 6:35,37). We must see the Son and believe, "And this is the will of the One sending Me, [1] that everyone seeing the Son and [2] believing into Him should have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day" (John 6:40 LITV).

You seem to not understand that the one seeing the Son must also believe from his own heart, exercising his own mind, employing his will to obey, to repent, and to believe. If someone's express will and deliberate decision is not involved in believing, he is no more than a puppet.

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[childeye]

Can Satan make man do anything or change man in any way?

When you ask this, I think of the man in chains who would throw himself into the fire. Does that answer qualify? Mark 5:9.

 

[childeye]

except that you have not exercised your will in believing, as if your believing is passive.

That to me is an equivocation since the will cannot be passive. It is going to be exercised by the presenting of the Truth whether in belief or disbelief. To be clear the will is the desire according to scripture translations. The question is therefore, does the absence of God teach me that I need Him? Does this cause me to desire Him? My answer is yes, since that is where the food is. I think the prodigal son is a perfect example of how I see this. Why? Because the prodigal son shows an ignorance wherein lie false imaginings that move the will, and realization of Truth that changes the will. Luke 15:11-32.

I saw the work of God in Christ crucified and resurrected. I understood that I must trust Him, and so I professed the LORD Jesus Christ and believed that He was crucified and resurrected. I saw His love, but love did not become a part of my character for a while. I did not fall in love with the LORD immediately, but knowing His will I became obedient to His command to believe, and so I believed. My believing was a deliberate decision, not motivated by my love or based upon any love from me, but out of need - I was lost and wandering and rebellious and destructive to the core. Experiential love came later as a fruit of the Spirit.

Okay so you had a need which required God. That's not something you chose and therefore could not choose..

A Revelation from God is not the same thing as believing. The former is from God, and the later is from man. My belief did not cause my birth from above, but was a condition of his giving eternal life to me.

Yes the revelation came first and the response afterward. But this is the issue I am addressing, why does a man believe? To say because he freely can or can't isn't an answer. The Gospel is the power of God to some and foolishness to others. That's a stark difference.

God does not repent for someone. He does not believe for someone. A man must repent and believe; granted . . . God is active and working in the process.

Okay so how much of it is God working and how much is us? I think God is the whole process. We're just the dirt. Look at the parable of the sower, the heart is the soil.

Yes, and many have. The Pharisees knew who Jesus was, and yet they did not believe in Him for righteousness, salvation, or eternal life.

But to be fair I asked you, not the Pharisees. Moreover this is twenty-twenty hindsight. You said that you understood that you must trust Him. That doesn't sound like you could've simply exercised your will/desire and not understood. Somehow you must've reached a tipping point of being persuaded.

Our Father leads men to Christ (Jn 6:44), but then we must come to Christ (Jn 6:35,37). We must see the Son and believe, "And this is the will of the One sending Me, [1] that everyone seeing the Son and [2] believing into Him should have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day" (John 6:40 LITV).

It seems to me that God knows who will believe and who won't and He knows why. I doubt He will say the reason is because they have a free will. In fact, the parable of the sower speaks to that, as well as the foolishness of God is greater than the wisdom of men. Matthew 13:18. 1 Corinthians 1:27

You seem to not understand that the one seeing the Son must also believe from his own heart, exercising his own mind, employing his will to obey, to repent, and to believe. If someone's express will and deliberate decision is not involved in believing, he is no more than a puppet.

The thing is, scripture says things like this, Luke 22:3. And this, Matthew 3:9. I mean a rock isn't even a puppet.