Conception and Birth of Believers

[Gregg]

Faith and believer are 2 sides of a coin; one being a verb (action) and the other being a noun (substance). When you say "the faith required to believe", do you mean that the action of believing requires an object (substance) to believe in or on? That would make sense.

We are in agreement on these matters. To answer your question, yes, the object of our faith is Christ crucified and resurrected.

Regarding the action required on our part to be saved: that action is to place our faith [noun (Rom 3:22,25,4:5)] in God, that is to believe [verb (Rom 10:9)] in Him, that we might become believing ones [participle, a verbal substantive (Rom 1:16,3:22,4:5,24)].

Stated another way - God takes a man from having faith [knowing about God while yet unsaved] to a state of believing [knowing God by experience as opposed to just knowing about Him, now saved or born from above]. In between having faith [noun] and believing [participle, verbal substantive] . . . is the exercise of our faith, for which God works together with us in the exercise of our will to believe [verb, our action].
​

The conception of faith leading to being born from above is portrayed in Jn chapter 9 regarding the blind man "that the works of God might be revealed in him" (Jn 9:3):

1. Jesus interacted with the blind man before opening his eyes (Jn 9:6-7);

a beginning of faith in the blind man.​

2. The blind man knew about Jesus (Jn 9:11,15,17);

while yet unsaved, however
God was increasing the blind man's knowledge of Jesus.​

3. The blind man has begun to believe that Jesus is from God (Jn 9:32-33).

Faith [noun] is now present in the mind of the former blind man,
while yet to believe [verb] into Christ.​

4. Jesus seeks the former blind man to see if faith is present in his heart (Jn 9:35);

to change him from knowing about God, to knowing God by experience.
So he asks, "Who is He, Lord, that I may believe into Him?" (Jn 9:36).​

5. Jesus points the man's faith in the right direction, toward the Son of God (Jn 9:37);

God's help in the man's exercise of is will,
God's influence upon the man's will,
God's interaction with the heart of the former blind man.​

6. The former blind man exercises his faith, he believes [verb] in the Son of God, into Christ (Jn 9:38).

At this point, I believe the man to be saved having experiential knowledge of God and having believed into Christ.​

7. "But as many as received Him, to them He gave authority to become children of God, to the ones believing [participle] into His name" (Jn 1:12). "that everyone believing into Him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that everyone believing into Him should not perish, but have everlasting life" (Jn 3:15-16).
​

 

[FreeGrace]

We are in agreement on these matters. To answer your question, yes, the object of our faith is Christ crucified and resurrected.

Yes, I would agree that we are in agreement.

However….

In between having faith [noun] and believing [participle, verbal substantive] . . . is the exercise of our faith, for which God works together with us in the exercise of our will to believe [verb, our action].[/QUOTE]
​

I see "having faith" and "believing" as synonymous, whereas believing is the action, and having faith is the object one is believing in.

 

[childeye]

Regarding your post #17, our will is not controlled by God but influenced by God.

The same could be said about the lust of the flesh, or the vanity of pride. But to say no to God is to say yes to a devil. And to say no to a devil is to say yes to God. Matthew 5:37. This exposes the equivocation in the term free will, with God acknowledged as the Truth and the devil as the tempter as the liar, God's enemy and my enemy, and your enemy, Matthew 13:25. For I see no good reason to not expose any ambiguity which Satan hides behind. 1 Peter 5:8. Matthew 5: 37

I take it you at least agree that God's Truth and the Eternal Spirit that is Love, influences us morally to some degree. But in all honesty, how big a part does the Eternal Spirit that is Love/empathy for others, influence our moral decisions to do Good to others? Can we have good will without Love in some degree? Would our degree of Love be reflected in our degree of good will? Is Love the product of decision just because I can refuse to follow? And if I deny Love, does Love not move me to sorrow, change my countenance, cause me to regret my choice, and move me to repentance?

In post #17, I am saying that in all honesty, and therefore admitting the reality of God's Eternal Truth, that God's Truth is all there is as pertains to Life and goodness, and anything contrary (ungodliness), in any degree is an equivocating or suppressing of that Truth that is Godliness. I therefore am saying it is not I that does the good, but God/Love inside me that does it, even though I do it in action since God is inside of me. For having been born of the Spirit of God, it is my sincere testimony that He is Love and without Him I am nothing. 1 Corinthians 13:1.

Regarding your post #18 above, we are save by grace through faith (Eph 2:8). Interesting that you quote Jn 1:12-13 as it begins by stating "as many as received Him . . .", a conscious decision to believe in the LORD, an act of obedience to the will of God. God makes the decision and obedience possible while allowing man the choice to believe or not, to be obedient or rebellious, to receive Him or reject Him.

You say you have read post #17. If you would be so kind so as to recall, that it begins by pointing out that we should not conflate the term 'will' with 'free will'. Otherwise we will end up arguing semantics which would be futility and not any form of Godliness. Respectfully, I feel you have done that here. I would ask, that in sincere Love, we try not to do that to each other. Do what? Take what one says and turn it into something they did not say by switching the meaning of a word, not intentionally, but through misunderstanding. Let's not let Satan rule here and cause division through misunderstandings that need not occur when in reality we agree.

In other words, I agree that some men receive Christ, and that these know God and have faith in God, and therefore they believe in Jesus who is God in the flesh. I also agree that some men cannot believe in Jesus, and conversely lack the ability to believe in him for an opposing reason. But I will not judge these unbelievers as capable of believing, simply because others were capable of doing so. Therefore it is an oversimplification to establish a free will based on someone's inability to receive Christ. This does not mean a choice or decision was not made as inevitably a choice was made. However, I will answer to God as to why I would think that those who did not receive God were capable of receiving him but did not do so intentionally. And belief in free will is problematic since it supports that reasoning that all men are equally capable of believing. For I know that I did not have the ability to not believe once I saw the divine Love and I sincerely believe it is by God's grace. Romans 11:20. Romans 11:23. Romans 11:30. Romans 11:31-32. Having said that, I have already acknowledged that a conscious decision is made when confronted with the Gospel in the form of whether to believe or not believe. The issue is, can someone believe in the Word of God made flesh come into the world without the Word of God in their heart?

In my thinking, a 'free will' can be exercised in the presence of necessity [as by default it is God's command to believe in Him]; and that God actively influences our discretion as we consider, contemplate, weigh the alternative, and decide upon believing in Him for salvation. God does not make the decision to believe for us, but He helps us in every way according to His character and nature.

Free will is saying God does not control our choices, including whether we decide to believe in free will or not. But if God wants to show there is no free will as proposed by Satan, pointed out and described in post #17, then He would devise a way to show that it is not by the will of man that they can be righteous. For example, what about judgment? A choice of necessity disqualifies a choice as being made by free will, since God requires a choice for the sake of judgment. That is why Free will is not applicable, since God is exposing what spirit is behind the will of the person by what choice the mind renders. If it is a free will, there is no such spirit of darkness or Light behind the choice as shown in post #17. John 8:47. Hence Jesus is a sword of judgment that says, if you are not for me, you are against me. John 12:31.

I therefore would ask if you agree that a person will project his own depravity in his thoughts and actions including the decision to not believe in the Christ? And likewise, that the spirit that rejects Christ is Satanic in origin, is real, and is trying to give reasons to not believe, and is capable of stealing the seed that is the Word being sown? Matthew 13:19. Would you admit that no greater Love can be shown than someone laying down their Life for you, and consequently, to distrust that persons intentions as diabolical is not rational? Would you admit that free will is a guise for Satan or sin when it comes in the form of disobedience to God? Would you agree that you would never want to hurt someone freely? I hope you understand, that to me, when I ask these questions, it is the same as asking if you agree with these scriptures.1 John 3:10. Romans 6:16.

I 'will' not be a Calvinist!

Peace be unto you Sir. Perfect Love casts out all fear. I am not a Calvinist and I am not trying to recruit you. There is a Truth that is Eternal. With knowledge of this Truth, a person can expose the lies of the enemy. However, the enemy would make it appear that the person who is seeking to expose the lies is trying to trap you into admitting something that the enemy does not want you to admit. If you agree that God is Love, and Love is of the highest value, we essentially agree on all else. I am not your enemy.

 

[Gregg]

Yes, I would agree that we are in agreement.

However….
[in regards to, content in brackets added by Gregg]

In between having faith [noun] and believing [participle, verbal substantive] . . . is the exercise of our faith, for which God works together with us in the exercise of our will to believe [verb, our action].
​

I see "having faith" and "believing" as synonymous, whereas believing is the action, and having faith is the object one is believing in.

I understand what you are calling attention to.

Regarding the portion that I underlined above, and specifically that faith: I am referencing a faith [pre-salvation, before being saved] that acknowledges God is who He says He is, but before acting upon it by believing into Christ. Many people have faith that God exists, and truly know that it is His will that we believe into Christ; yet refuse to act upon that. That faith can not save them. Even demons believe that God exists (Js 2:19, Acts 19:15), and know that a man must believe into Christ for their salvation and eternal life. So what is underlined above is a faith [noun] that has not produced the action of believing, before being obedient to the will of God so as to place their faith in Him for salvation.

At some point that faith [noun, pre-salvation] is acted upon when he believes [verbal action, salvation occurs]. When he believes [verb] into Christ, when he makes a conscious willful determination in his heart to place his trust in God and in Christ . . . then he is believing [participle, a verbal substantive]. His faith is no longer just a noun [head knowledge], but his faith has become "believing" [a participle, a verbal substantive].

Scripture most often refers to the elect, to the saved, using the participle form of the word "faith", and is translated literally as 'a believing one' [a verbal substantive being simultaneously both a noun and a verb]; as believers now both have faith [noun, substantive] and having acted upon it [verbal action]. Scripture so beautifully and wonderfully depicts God's intimate involvement in every aspect of our salvation, and His process of conceiving and giving birth to believers.

When someone who has faith becomes a 'believing one', then he has a faith through which he has believed into Christ; and at that point his 'having faith' and 'believing' is synonymous.

- - -

I am saying all this attempting to drill down to, to peer into the very finest and minute portions of the truth in the Scriptures; to see the jots and tittles, even to see where the pen and ink first touch the parchment; even to where His living and active word falls upon my heart. Sometimes, 'where many words are spoken transgression is unavoidable'. His word is concise and exacting, perfect and profitable and healing in every way. So I ask the LORD that my words may be few and concise, knowing spiritual things are so deep and broad, and difficult to communicate. These forum demonstrate as much. But still, I pray the LORD will lead me into the deepest parts of His word and Person, and guide my mouth as I feebly attempt to convey what I see through scratched and bent bifocals.



.

 

[Gregg]

The same could be said about the lust of the flesh, or the vanity of pride. But to say no to God is to say yes to a devil. And to say no to a devil is to say yes to God. Matthew 5:37.

Again, I disagree. To say no to God could be, and most often is, to say "Yes" to self; that is to exercise one's own will in the stead of acting upon God's will.
Neighbor, the devil is not responsible for your sin. The sinner is responsible for his own sin (Rom 14:12). The evil spoken of in Mat 5:37 may be part of the nature of man distinct from the devil.

For I see no good reason to not expose any ambiguity which Satan hides behind. 1 Peter 5:8. Matthew 5: 37

Nor should a man hid his own faults behind Satan. Adam hid behind Eve, and Eve hid behind the serpent; yet Adam and eve suffered the consequence of their actions.

And belief in free will is problematic since it supports that reasoning that all men are equally capable of believing. For I know that I did not have the ability to not believe once I saw the divine Love and I sincerely believe it is by God's grace. Romans 11:20. Romans 11:23. Romans 11:30. Romans 11:31-32.

A man's will has little to do with his capability to believe, but much to do with his willingness to believe. God gave Pharaoh the capability to believe (1Sam 6:6, Exo 9:27-28,10:3,16-17), but after continued disobedience God hardened his heart (Exo 4:21,7:13-14,9:34-35, Rom 9:17-18).

I therefore would ask if you agree that a person will project his own depravity in his thoughts and actions including the decision to not believe in the Christ?

Yes.

And likewise, that the spirit that rejects Christ is Satanic in origin, <snipped>

No, as it is his own spirit who makes the decision and rejects.

Would you admit that free will is a guise for Satan or sin when it comes in the form of disobedience to God?

No.

I hope you understand, that to me, when I ask these questions, it is the same as asking if you agree with these scriptures.1 John 3:10. Romans 6:16.

To not be of God does not mean to be of the devil; as the man himself is responsible for his own action, regardless of the degree of influence by the devil. 1 Jn 3:10 says that the one not practicing righteousness is not of God, but it does not say he is of the devil; "By this the children of God and the children of the Devil are revealed: Everyone not practicing righteousness is not of God; also the one not loving his brother" (1Jn 3:10 LITV).

Rom 6:16 does not place our guilt or responsibility for sin upon Satan, nor does it blame him for our sin, nor does it even mention Satan. A man can be captive to himself, to his flesh, without being captive or obedient to Satan.

.

 

[FreeGrace]

I understand what you are calling attention to.

Regarding the portion that I underlined above, and specifically that faith: I am referencing a faith [pre-salvation, before being saved] that acknowledges God is who He says He is, but before acting upon it by believing into Christ. Many people have faith that God exists, and truly know that it is His will that we believe into Christ; yet refuse to act upon that. That faith can not save them. Even demons believe that God exists (Js 2:19, Acts 19:15), and know that a man must believe into Christ for their salvation and eternal life. So what is underlined above is a faith [noun] that has not produced the action of believing, before being obedient to the will of God so as to place their faith in Him for salvation.

At some point that faith [noun, pre-salvation] is acted upon when he believes [verbal action, salvation occurs]. When he believes [verb] into Christ, when he makes a conscious willful determination in his heart to place his trust in God and in Christ . . . then he is believing [participle, a verbal substantive]. His faith is no longer just a noun [head knowledge], but his faith has become "believing" [a participle, a verbal substantive].

Scripture most often refers to the elect, to the saved, using the participle form of the word "faith", and is translated literally as 'a believing one' [a verbal substantive being simultaneously both a noun and a verb]; as believers now both have faith [noun, substantive] and having acted upon it [verbal action]. Scripture so beautifully and wonderfully depicts God's intimate involvement in every aspect of our salvation, and His process of conceiving and giving birth to believers.

When someone who has faith becomes a 'believing one', then he has a faith through which he has believed into Christ; and at that point his 'having faith' and 'believing' is synonymous.

- - -

I am saying all this attempting to drill down to, to peer into the very finest and minute portions of the truth in the Scriptures; to see the jots and tittles, even to see where the pen and ink first touch the parchment; even to where His living and active word falls upon my heart. Sometimes, 'where many words are spoken transgression is unavoidable'. His word is concise and exacting, perfect and profitable and healing in every way. So I ask the LORD that my words may be few and concise, knowing spiritual things are so deep and broad, and difficult to communicate. These forum demonstrate as much. But still, I pray the LORD will lead me into the deepest parts of His word and Person, and guide my mouth as I feebly attempt to convey what I see through scratched and bent bifocals.
.

I think I understand your point. I recall Heb 11:6 as a verse that would support what you are saying:

"And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him."

 

[childeye]

Which is why this concept cannot be true.

Do you realize that you are making my point for me, since I said a believer in free will thinks exactly what you said, which is exactly what you said, and you believe in free will.

Actually, he is the great loser.

Because of Christ he is the great loser. That doesn't change the fact that he plays both ends against the middle and is the source of division. Which is what I am trying to point out. I am not pointing out he is the great winner.

Nothing he does makes him a winner. He's so self deceived it's amazing.

Of course you are right.

Actually, man IS to blame for his sin. Rom 1:20 says that no one has any excuse.

Please keep in mind that Paul is saying these things, even though he himself had Steven stoned to death, and persecuted the faith. He was an unbeliever, an enemy of the Gospel. He also speaks in Romans 7:11, that sin deceived him even though he willed against it Romans 7:17. Romans 8:3. I therefore doubt Paul is saying he knew he was doing wrong when persecuting the Christ. I doubt he's saying he didn't know he was doing wrong, when he transgressed against the law and sinned. For he said he willed not to do it according to the inner man, yet he did it despite knowing it was wrong. Romans 7:18. For Paul then says that there exists a weakness in the flesh, which could be construed as an excuse. Romans 8:3. But in fact this weakness only verifies what he says in Romans 1:24-31. These verses do not condemn the inward man, but condemns the flesh. Romans 8:1. So what is Paul saying we have no excuse for, and how did men become servants of the flesh to do things we know are wrong according to God, but yet we have pleasure in them ? Romans 7:14.

Romans 1:18 says mankind suppresses the Truth in unrighteousness and ungodliness.
What Truth do we know, that is suppressed through ungodliness?
Romans 1:19-20. says, even his eternal power and Godhead;
How do we suppress that Truth?
Romans 1:21-23.
21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
So Paul is saying that the wrath of God occurs because Men did not glorify Him whom they know is inside them, as God Who created then. And instead of men being thankful for His Godly attributes, which they know because they are manifest in them, they imagined their own false god in some corruptible form that resembles their own corruptible selves or some other creature.
And what happened to mankind because of this?
Romans 1:24 says,
24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

So here in Romans 1:18-32 is the story of how men became sold unto sin. Romans 7:14. Yes there is no excuse where one could say "I didn't know" as pertains to Where Godliness and ungodliness comes from. For ungodliness comes from a corrupt image of god and Godliness comes from the True Image of God. And men sin because God has given them up to the lusts of their flesh so as to show that He is what keeps them from becoming abominations.

This is why I don't believe in free will, which reasons that we are free to act however we choose. Because we are unthankful for His attributes since we think we choose them. Unfortunately, I believe we all do this to some extent. I know my children take me for granted even as I took my parents for granted. I must suppose that God knew Satan would take God for granted and that likewise men would too. Romans 8:20. My only recourse is to forgive those who do injustice to me when I am the victim of the unrighteousness that comes from men taking God for granted. Even as Christ did by submitting to the cross, so that I might be found blameless before God with a pure conscience. Hence I don't condemn others lest I be condemned. Romans 2:1.

If man isn't accountable, why did Jesus Christ die for man's sins?

I never said man isn't accountable. Man will give answer for everything he did or did not do.

If no one is to blame, then there would be no need for Christ's payment of sin.

If the accusation comes from the tempter then it is not honorable. Satan planted the first false image that enabled distrust and disobedience. Satan plays the ends against the middle. He not only tempts men to sin, he also accuses men before God creating division and enmity between man and God. Seeing from scripture that Satan is the accuser of mankind, Revelations 12:10, John 8:10. And seeing from scripture that Satan had the power of death and held people in bondage through fear of death Hebrews 2:14. Jesus partook of flesh so as to die and enter into hell and take captivity captive. Psalm 68:18.Hebrews 4:17-18. Reconciling man and God through belief in the True image of God sent by God. 2 Corinthians 5:18.

Someone surely is responsible for sin. And since Christ died for the sins of the whole world (1 Jn 2:2), it is clear that man is responsible and accountable for his sins.

It does not occur to you that all sin happened because of a single moment of doubt in God's Character that was never true, yet acted upon by the innocent and gullible. And everyone in the world has either believed it in some form, or returned evil for evil because of it. Revelations 12:9. Romans 5:18-21. The only one who wants to accuse, is the devil and Jesus came and died to destroy him and all his works. 1 John 3:8.

 

[childeye]

Again, I disagree. To say no to God could be, and most often is, to say "Yes" to self; that is to exercise one's own will in the stead of acting upon God's will.

If that will that acts against God is the self, than that will is deceived with a false image of god. For God's will is trustworthy even as His Character has only our best interests at heart. This self will is against it's self. A contradiction that is inevitable when a man distrusts His Maker. Hence righteousness is by faith.

Neighbor, the devil is not responsible for your sin. The sinner is responsible for his own sin (Rom 14:12).

Thanks for the Love Gregg. Right back at you neighbor. Romans 14:12 says we will give account to God for how we acted particularly to our brethren. In context it is about not judging others. It is not talking about sin.

So you tell me the devil is not responsible for my sin. You also probably feel I am deflecting responsibility for my freely made actions. That's okay. That is the inevitable outcome of believing the will sins freely. I used to have a defiled conscience because of that same belief. Also I blamed others accordingly. I wanted to do Good for God but I would fail as the lusts of my flesh took control. Romans 7:18. When I learned that sin is slavery and one needed God's Light, I had to re-evaluate my perspective. God's light is what keeps a man able to see the lies that would deceive a man into sin. If one walks in Love, he will not sin. It's that simple, but it is hard to believe at first. The Holy Spirit that comes in the Name of the Christ Jesus taught me, that if one acknowledges that God is Love the Light of your soul, you will Love Him with all your heart mind and soul. For He is our Light and the only goodness in us. 1 John 3:5-9
5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he (Christ) is righteous.
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God,

Nor should a man hid his own faults behind Satan. Adam hid behind Eve, and Eve hid behind the serpent; yet Adam and eve suffered the consequence of their actions.

Actually, sin carries it's own punishment simply because there are bad things down that path. The fault is not trusting God. In other words the fault is to find fault with our station under God. We all share a planet and no one has the right to do unto others what they would not want done to them. Thank God for the Holy Spirit that reminds us of that, and convicts us of sin by revealing our own hypocrisy. Once we despise ourselves we do regret our actions and He moves us to repentance through Love. We wouldn't care at all whether we hurt someone without Love. It is Love that causes a man to act responsibly and not belief in free will.

I don't believe Adam hid behind the woman. The fact is he shouldn't have listened to her for she was deceived. If we look at the order of punishment, The serpent got the worst and enmity was placed between the serpent and the woman and her see would bruise the serpents head. The woman was then placed under the man. For God said she would be ruled by the man, and her desire would be for him. Adam got the least punishment of having cursed ground to till in. So Satan got the worst and Adam got the least. Therefore, if you are right about Eve hiding behind the serpent and Adam hiding behind the woman, then God got the punishment in the wrong order. What's interesting is that the punishments for the man and the woman are about having sorrow. Which is Godly.

A man's will has little to do with his capability to believe, but much to do with his willingness to believe. God gave Pharaoh the capability to believe (1Sam 6:6, Exo 9:27-28,10:3,16-17), but after continued disobedience God hardened his heart (Exo 4:21,7:13-14,9:34-35, Rom 9:17-18).

It depends on what you mean by believe. Pharaoh's belief is about whether God can destroy what he has or not. He is only made capable when he experiences destruction that was promised would come. That is not faith. Believing for Christians is not about avoiding destruction. It is about belief/trust in God's Character which is undying Love.

No, as it is his own spirit who makes the decision and rejects

.
A spirit doesn't actually decide anything. A spirit of darkness exists upon the belief of a lie. You don't believe that the Gospel is what frees people from the power of Satan? Acts 26:18. John 12 :31. 2 Corinthians 4:4.

No.

So you don't believe that all acts of sin are Fathered by Satan? 1 John 3:8.


To not be of God does not mean to be of the devil; as the man himself is responsible for his own action, regardless of the degree of influence by the devil. 1 Jn 3:10 says that the one not practicing righteousness is not of God, but it does not say he is of the devil; "By this the children of God and the children of the Devil are revealed: Everyone not practicing righteousness is not of God; also the one not loving his brother" (1Jn 3:10 LITV). But 1 John 8 says that anyone who sins is of the devil. Does it not?

Rom 6:16 does not place our guilt or responsibility for sin upon Satan, nor does it blame him for our sin, nor does it even mention Satan. A man can be captive to himself, to his flesh, without being captive or obedient to Satan.

But 1 John 8 says otherwise. The scriptures do not contradict it's self. Neighbor, every sin is based upon a lie for it opposes God who is Love. Consequently Love does not condone doing unto others what we would not want done to ourselves, which is sin because it is falsehood to do so. The devil is the tempter in scripture. John 8:44.

 

[FreeGrace]

Do you realize that you are making my point for me, since I said a believer in free will thinks exactly what you said, which is exactly what you said, and you believe in free will.

I've not made your point for you. In fact, your comment here is just circular wording.

This is what I said which resulted in your circular words:
"Which is why this concept cannot be true."

Maybe you would care to further explain or clarify your earlier statement, to which I said was why this concept that free will doesn't exist cannot be true:
"Some people have a problem with such a concept because it eliminates what the dictionary describes as free will. And without free will and free choice, then God becomes the author of sin. This brings forth in believers of free will, a passion to defend God. They reject such interpretation of scripture and resign to taking the responsibility for sin upon themselves rather than believe God would make people sin. So through this line of reasoning either man is to blame for sin via a free will or God is blamed for predestining man to be a sinner."

If man has a free will, then he is to blame for his sin. If man doesn't have a free will, then God is to blame for his sin.

And men sin because God has given them up to the lusts of their flesh so as to show that He is what keeps them from becoming abominations.

"so as to show…"??? What in the world are you talking about? How is God keeping these unbelievers "from becoming abominations"??? This is not making any sense.

Rom 1:18-32 is about God allowing them to follow their own lust patterns. Nothing about "not becoming abominations". In fact, the opposite is true. They DO become abominations, by their unchecked lust.

This is why I don't believe in free will, which reasons that we are free to act however we choose. Because we are unthankful for His attributes since we think we choose them.

More confusion. Your denial doesn't change anything; man is free to act however we choose. The opposite of that is puppetry or robotics, which is absurd.

Second, how does being "unthankful for His attributes" result in our thinking that we "choose them"? That certainly doesn't make any sense. Why would anyone who isn't thankful for God's attributs choose them anyway?

Unfortunately, I believe we all do this to some extent.

Do what, specifically? Your previous sentence isn't clear.

I know my children take me for granted even as I took my parents for granted.

What does this have to do with free will, other than it PROVES both you and your children freely chose to take parents for granted. Which makes my point. ;)

I must suppose that God knew Satan would take God for granted and that likewise men would too.

Are you serious? You think that God "must suppose…"??? Don't you know that God is omniscient? He has always known everything. He supposes nothing. He knows everything.

I never said man isn't accountable. Man will give answer for everything he did or did not do.

Thus proving that man's actions are freely chosen.

It does not occur to you that all sin happened because of a single moment of doubt in God's Character that was never true, yet acted upon by the innocent and gullible.

I would suggest that you don't try to make claims about what does or does not occur to me. Sounds rather arrogant, as if you can read the minds of others. I'm very aware of the entire episode of the first sin. You have no basis at all to make such a claim.

 

[Gregg]

If that will that acts against God is the self, than that will is deceived with a false image of god. For God's will is trustworthy even as His Character has only our best interests at heart. This self will is against it's self. A contradiction that is inevitable when a man distrusts His Maker. Hence righteousness is by faith.
Thanks for the Love Gregg. Right back at you neighbor. Romans 14:12 says we will give account to God for how we acted particularly to our brethren. In context it is about not judging others. It is not talking about sin.

So you tell me the devil is not responsible for my sin. You also probably feel I am deflecting responsibility for my freely made actions. That's okay. That is the inevitable outcome of believing the will sins freely. I used to have a defiled conscience because of that same belief. Also I blamed others accordingly. I wanted to do Good for God but I would fail as the lusts of my flesh took control. Romans 7:18. When I learned that sin is slavery and one needed God's Light, I had to re-evaluate my perspective. God's light is what keeps a man able to see the lies that would deceive a man into sin. If one walks in Love, he will not sin. It's that simple, but it is hard to believe at first. The Holy Spirit that comes in the Name of the Christ Jesus taught me, that if one acknowledges that God is Love the Light of your soul, you will Love Him with all your heart mind and soul. For He is our Light and the only goodness in us. 1 John 3:5-9
5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he (Christ) is righteous.
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God,

Actually, sin carries it's own punishment simply because there are bad things down that path. The fault is not trusting God. In other words the fault is to find fault with our station under God. We all share a planet and no one has the right to do unto others what they would not want done to them. Thank God for the Holy Spirit that reminds us of that, and convicts us of sin by revealing our own hypocrisy. Once we despise ourselves we do regret our actions and He moves us to repentance through Love. We wouldn't care at all whether we hurt someone without Love. It is Love that causes a man to act responsibly and not belief in free will.

I don't believe Adam hid behind the woman. The fact is he shouldn't have listened to her for she was deceived. If we look at the order of punishment, The serpent got the worst and enmity was placed between the serpent and the woman and her see would bruise the serpents head. The woman was then placed under the man. For God said she would be ruled by the man, and her desire would be for him. Adam got the least punishment of having cursed ground to till in. So Satan got the worst and Adam got the least. Therefore, if you are right about Eve hiding behind the serpent and Adam hiding behind the woman, then God got the punishment in the wrong order. What's interesting is that the punishments for the man and the woman are about having sorrow. Which is Godly.


It depends on what you mean by believe. Pharaoh's belief is about whether God can destroy what he has or not. He is only made capable when he experiences destruction that was promised would come. That is not faith. Believing for Christians is not about avoiding destruction. It is about belief/trust in God's Character which is undying Love.

.
A spirit doesn't actually decide anything. A spirit of darkness exists upon the belief of a lie. You don't believe that the Gospel is what frees people from the power of Satan? Acts 26:18. John 12 :31. 2 Corinthians 4:4.



So you don't believe that all acts of sin are Fathered by Satan? 1 John 3:8.


To not be of God does not mean to be of the devil; as the man himself is responsible for his own action, regardless of the degree of influence by the devil. 1 Jn 3:10 says that the one not practicing righteousness is not of God, but it does not say he is of the devil; "By this the children of God and the children of the Devil are revealed: Everyone not practicing righteousness is not of God; also the one not loving his brother" (1Jn 3:10 LITV). But 1 John 8 says that anyone who sins is of the devil. Does it not?

But 1 John 8 says otherwise. The scriptures do not contradict it's self. Neighbor, every sin is based upon a lie for it opposes God who is Love. Consequently Love does not condone doing unto others what we would not want done to ourselves, which is sin because it is falsehood to do so. The devil is the tempter in scripture. John 8:44.

You are directing the conversation way off topic. Can you relate your line of reasoning back to the topic of this thread, how it relates to the conception and birth of believers?

 

[gr8grace3]

God conceives faith in the heart of a man, and He gives birth to the one believing in Him. Those 2 things are the work of God.

In between conception of faith [noun] and our believing [participle], a man must believe [verb] in the Person of God and in His testimony of Christ; he does not believe as contractual work requiring payment but because it is an expectation and command of God, an act of obedience according to God's will. That act of obedience is his work made possible by God.

"who were born not of bloods, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but were born of God" (John 1:13 LITV).

"For by grace you are saved, through faith, and this not of yourselves; it is the gift of God;" (Eph 2:8 LITV).

"for we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God before prepared that we should walk in them" (Eph 2:10 LITV).

"Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God. And everyone who loves Him who begets also loves the one who has been born of Him" (1Jn 5:1 LITV).

​

Good Topic Gregg.And the first scripture that came to my mind when reading this is, 2 Pet 3:9~~New American Standard Bible
The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.
This indicates that the Holy Spirit will not withhold the Gospel message from any man. But having that information(conception) does not save a man. Believing(birth) that information is when the Holy Spirit saves a man.

"For by grace you are saved, through faith, and this not of yourselves; it is the gift of God;" (Eph 2:8 LITV).

We have touched on this briefly before, but I believe this GIFT of God in Eph 2:8 is the whole realm of salvation....the grace,the faith and salvation is the gift.

The faith is what seems to throw everyone off. How can faith be the gift from God? I believe it is because we often overlook that it is the Holy Spirit that makes our faith effectual for salvation. It is not my small(freewill) faith that saved me. It was the Holy Spirit and the OBJECT of my faith that made it effectual for my salvation. It is why all men can believe and it is non-meritorious to that man.
2 Cor 6:2~~English Standard Version
For he says, “In a favorable time I listened to you, and in a day of salvation I have helped you.” Behold, now is the favorable time; behold, now is the day of salvation.

 

[childeye]

Good Topic Gregg.And the first scripture that came to my mind when reading this is, 2 Pet 3:9~~New American Standard Bible
The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.
This indicates that the Holy Spirit will not withhold the Gospel message from any man. But having that information(conception) does not save a man. Believing(birth) that information is when the Holy Spirit saves a man.

"For by grace you are saved, through faith, and this not of yourselves; it is the gift of God;" (Eph 2:8 LITV).

We have touched on this briefly before, but I believe this GIFT of God in Eph 2:8 is the whole realm of salvation....the grace,the faith and salvation is the gift.

The faith is what seems to throw everyone off. How can faith be the gift from God? I believe it is because we often overlook that it is the Holy Spirit that makes our faith effectual for salvation. It is not my small(freewill) faith that saved me. It was the Holy Spirit and the OBJECT of my faith that made it effectual for my salvation. It is why all men can believe and it is non-meritorious to that man.
2 Cor 6:2~~English Standard Version
For he says, “In a favorable time I listened to you, and in a day of salvation I have helped you.” Behold, now is the favorable time; behold, now is the day of salvation.

I would like to comment on your post. It is well said. You covered a lot of ground with few words and no errors.

 

[childeye]

You are directing the conversation way off topic. Can you relate your line of reasoning back to the topic of this thread, how it relates to the conception and birth of believers?

Well sure Gregg. Let me set the scene.

Man is fallen because in his innocence, he has accepted a subtle lie and a false image of god presented by Satan for the sake of vanity. This false image reigns at the core of his soul as man's faith is applied to it, which results in a corrupt heart and a reprobate mind and sinfulness. Genesis 3:4-5 Romans 1:23. In spiritual terms, man is in darkness and a slave to Satan, and so blind, that he does not even know he is a slave of Satan and a minion of the kingdom of darkness. Ephesians 5:8.Ephesians 6:12. Luke 11:34-35.Onto the scene comes the Christ. A pure Light without any darkness. The true image of God sent by God. John 1:5. He comes in the flesh as a new Adam with the purpose of dying so that he can destroy the works of Satan and show the power and glory of God's Light, which is greater than any darkness. Acts 26:18. Or shall I say that he comes to show that the True Image of God is more powerful than any false image ever imagined. Or shall I say, to reveal in both heaven and Earth Who He really is.

Now God knows that Satan is a liar and a murderer, therefore God knows Satan will seek to devour this man. Revelations 12:4. And like a worm on a hook Satan is drawn to the irresistible bait. Job 41:1. And right on cue, Satan conspires through his minions to crucify him with all worldly authority so as to make it official. Matthew 21:38.

The minions beat the Christ, and scorn him in a public display of contempt. And finally they nail him upon a cross of shame because he spoke the truth. But there in the depth of suffering, the Christ with all purity of heart forgives his murderers saying "forgive them Father for they know not what they do". And those who see this and hear this, realize they have seen a great Love that can only come from the True God. Isaiah 9:2. And they believe in this True Image and begin to see how they all have become corrupt.

And so therefore, as the Gospel of the cross is preached throughout the world, men become changed, healed in their minds, given sight, and changed over into the kingdom of Light, through the power of the Christ on the cross. Acts 26:18. Christ goes into hell and death and because he does not deserve death, and because such Love is Eternal, death had no hold on him and he took the keys from Satan and also the power of death and was caught up to God taking death it's self captive. Hebrews 2:14. And there he sits with all authority as a mediator between man and God until all things are gathered in his Name. And In heaven all the angels witnessed the treachery and falsehood of Satan, and he and his angels were cast out. Revelations 12:10-11.

 

[FreeGrace]

Well sure Gregg. Let me set the scene.

Man is fallen because he has a false image of god at the core of his soul which results in a corrupt heart and a reprobate mind and sinfulness.

Man is fallen because he sinned. Adam did not have a "false image of god". He had a clear personal relationship with the LORD. When he sinned, he hid from the LORD. He knew full well who the LORD was, and he disobeyed the LORD. Adam "fell" when he sinned. That is why he (and all of mankind) is said to be fallen.

 

[Gregg]

Good Topic Gregg.And the first scripture that came to my mind when reading this is, 2 Pet 3:9~~New American Standard Bible
The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.
This indicates that the Holy Spirit will not withhold the Gospel message from any man. But having that information(conception) does not save a man. Believing(birth) that information is when the Holy Spirit saves a man.

"For by grace you are saved, through faith, and this not of yourselves; it is the gift of God;" (Eph 2:8 LITV).

We have touched on this briefly before, but I believe this GIFT of God in Eph 2:8 is the whole realm of salvation....the grace,the faith and salvation is the gift.

The faith is what seems to throw everyone off. How can faith be the gift from God? I believe it is because we often overlook that it is the Holy Spirit that makes our faith effectual for salvation. It is not my small(freewill) faith that saved me. It was the Holy Spirit and the OBJECT of my faith that made it effectual for my salvation. It is why all men can believe and it is non-meritorious to that man.
2 Cor 6:2~~English Standard Version
For he says, “In a favorable time I listened to you, and in a day of salvation I have helped you.” Behold, now is the favorable time; behold, now is the day of salvation.

I appreciate your thoughts and Scripture references. I agree with what you have said here, and in particular - 'We have touched on this briefly before, but I believe this GIFT of God in Eph 2:8 is the whole realm of salvation....the grace,the faith and salvation is the gift.'

'Conceive/conception' is a word of my choosing to describe God's work in our hearts, His preparation of our heart that we may believe in Him. Our believing into Christ is an exercise of our free will, but the faith required to believe comes from God:
"For by grace you are saved, through faith, and this not of yourselves; it is the gift of God;" (Eph 2:8 LITV). The word 'gift' is neuter gender; where 'grace' is feminine, 'saved' is masculine, and 'faith' is feminine - indicating that the "gift" applies to all three - His grace, our being saved, and our faith. His grace, our being saved, and our faith are all three a gift of God.

 

[childeye]

Man is fallen because he sinned. Adam did not have a "false image of god". He had a clear personal relationship with the LORD. When he sinned, he hid from the LORD. He knew full well who the LORD was, and he disobeyed the LORD. Adam "fell" when he sinned. That is why he (and all of mankind) is said to be fallen.

For the record, I acknowledge that Adam and Eve sinned. But that is an oversimplification. So that if I asked you what the sin was, you will predictably say, they disobeyed God's command to not eat of the forbidden fruit.

Forgive me if I sound arrogant, but that is not how I would answer if the question was put to me. Why? Because there is a worse sin than disobeying God's commandment. That had we not done, we would have never disobeyed. It is accepting that god is a self serving tyrannical liar who holds his station over mankind by depriving them of the very thing that keeps them from becoming like god, the ability to discern between good and evil. Many people don't realize that mankind accepted this false image of god even as they ate of the fruit. It is not spoken of nor written about, probably because it was the most subtle part of the lie. Below is the scripture. Do you see the lie that I am referring to?
Genesis 3:4-5King James Version (KJV)
4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

And this is at the heart of the no blame scenario and also why I find free will theology to be misleading.

Because in my view, it carries no weight to say to God, "I acknowledge that I freely and knowingly disobeyed your command and I am truly sorry for disobeying you now that I have fallen and have suffered great loss for it".

I think it means more to God to say, "When I disobeyed You, I didn't realize that I was accepting a corrupt image of you, Who has ever been faithful Holy and True. And I detest myself in the deepest way for ever believing otherwise.

 

[FreeGrace]

For the record, I acknowledge that Adam and Eve sinned. But that is an oversimplification. So that if I asked you what the sin was, you will predictably say, they disobeyed God's command to not eat of the forbidden fruit.

I don't understand why you say that is an oversimplification. That is exactly what happened. Also, you overstated the issue by claiming that Adam "had a false image of god". Adam clearly knew His Creator. They had a relationship.

Forgive me if I sound arrogant, but that is not how I would answer if the question was put to me. Why? Because there is a worse sin than disobeying God's commandment.

Forgiven. However, I think you continue to overstate the issue. God gave Adam and the woman only 1 negative command (thou shalt not…). And they disobeyed. There were no other ways to sin.

That had we not done, we would have never disobeyed. It is accepting that god is a self serving tyrannical liar who holds his station over mankind by depriving them of the very thing that keeps them from becoming like god, the ability to discern between good and evil.

What??! What are you talking about?

Many people don't realize that mankind accepted this false image of god even as they ate of the fruit. It is not spoken of nor written about, probably because it was the most subtle part of the lie. Below is the scripture. Do you see the lie that I am referring to?
Genesis 3:4-5King James Version (KJV)
4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

And this is at the heart of the no blame scenario and also why I find free will theology to be misleading.

Yes, I do see the lie. And it came from Satan. Who deceived the woman. But Adam was NOT deceived. He knew exactly what he was doing when he ate the fruit offered by the woman.

And there isn't any such "no blame scenario" as you claim. Consider what Paul wrote about the first sin of humanity:

1 Tim 2:14 - And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression. NASB

Also, God held the woman, the man, and Satan accountable for the sin. Gen 3:14-19. All were judged.

Because in my view, it carries no weight to say to God, "I acknowledge that I freely and knowingly disobeyed your command and I am truly sorry for disobeying you now that I have fallen and have suffered great loss for it".

Your view is noted.

I think it means more to God to say, "When I disobeyed You, I didn't realize that I was accepting a corrupt image of you, Who has ever been faithful Holy and True. And I detest myself in the deepest way for ever believing otherwise.

You haven't shown that either Adam or the woman had this so-called "corrupted image" of God in the first place.

Do you have some verses that support your view?

 

[childeye]

I don't understand why you say that is an oversimplification. That is exactly what happened. Also, you overstated the issue by claiming that Adam "had a false image of god". Adam clearly knew His Creator. They had a relationship.

Yes Adam had a relationship with God and also with Eve. A relationship that began in faith, which is what holds relationships together. However I doubt Adam even knew what faith is. In His state of innocence, I imagine he knew nothing about distrust, or dishonesty, lies, or deceit. Nor would he understand fidelity or honesty. He certainly knew fidelity and honesty in an intimate sense, but he at least couldn't identify them in contrast to dishonesty and infidelity which he did not know. There just was never any reason to lie because there was only purity in his heart.

And likewise Adam knew God intimately, after the same manner. For Adam was made in the image of God, and he was not unlike God in both countenance and character. Except for the fact that Adam was flesh and made of the earth, there was no difference. Yet Adam still had no knowledge of good and evil, and did not have anything with which to compare, so that he didn't even know the value of himself nor the spirit that dwelt within him and gave him life. Hence he lacked confidence, and this is made evident in scripture, for he listened to, and followed the woman. Genesis 3:17. So pardon the semantic confusion, but Adam did know God, he just didn't know he knew Him.

Forgiven. However, I think you continue to overstate the issue. God gave Adam and the woman only 1 negative command (thou shalt not…). And they disobeyed. There were no other ways to sin.
What??! What are you talking about?

I am saying that without the integrity of God's Character being questioned through the subtle lie that was sown by the serpent, mankind would have never disobeyed. For the Serpent is inferring that Adam and Eve are naïve about God, and that God is not who they think He is, or rather how they think He is. So he confidently implies that God is a liar and untrustworthy, holding mankind down by keeping from them the very thing that would make them equal to Him. For no one disobeys a person that they trust is telling them the truth. Consequently the most cunning of God's creations was able to manipulate the innocent through subterfuge by manufacturing a credible reason as to why they should disobey. And without this subterfuge Adam and Eve most likely would still be obeying God, just as they had been before Satan's lies.Hence unrighteousness in mankind was born through lack of faith or unbelief, even as righteousness comes by faith.

Yes, I do see the lie. And it came from Satan. Who deceived the woman. But Adam was NOT deceived. He knew exactly what he was doing when he ate the fruit offered by the woman.

And there isn't any such "no blame scenario" as you claim. Consider what Paul wrote about the first sin of humanity:

1 Tim 2:14 - And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression. NASB

No, I don't believe Adam knew what he was doing, unless of course he loved the woman so much he would rather die alongside her than be without her. But I don't think that's the case according to scripture. I think he lacked confidence so he followed the woman. I see that trait in mankind all too often.

1 Timothy is out of context. In context 1 Timothy 2:14 is talking about who should be subordinate to whom. It might as well have just said that she was the one that reached for the fruit and gave it to Adam so the man should rule over woman. For otherwise this is the logic if Adam knew what he was doing: The one woman who was tricked into defying God should be ruled by the one who willingly and knowingly counted god a self serving liar.
So yes there is a no blame scenario just as I claim.

Also, God held the woman, the man, and Satan accountable for the sin. Gen 3:14-19. All were judged.

First off, sin carries it's own punishment because there are bad things down that path. God wanted them to stay away from that tree for that very reason. Accountable is not the correct term to use in my view. They were cast from the garden so that they could not eat of the tree of life. Those things we would deem as punishment such as bearing children in sorrow and the cursed ground to till, were necessary components of a greater plan. For since Adam and Eve had found fault in there station, and had taken their paradise for granted they now would learn the value of what they had lost through losing it.

You haven't shown that either Adam or the woman had this so-called "corrupted image" of God in the first place.

It is self evident, that if they ate they believed what the serpent had said, including the corrupt image of God that was planted in the subconscious. For after their eyes were open, the serpent would appear as if he had been telling the truth, for that is what he had said they would gain which God was holding from them.

Do you have some verses that support your view?

Forgive me if I sound arrogant, but Indeed all of scripture supports my view. Every act of sin, every act of treachery, jealousy, cynicism, racism, etc... etc... in scripture, is evidence of a false image of god in humanity.

This world reflects it, in that might makes right, and respect is bought and forced, wars are raged and genocide is justified. And through fear of punishment people are deterred from doing evil. Locks on every door, and guns in every house. The ways of the world reflect the false image of god that comes from Satan. James 4:4. The fact that men would imagine better gods to replace the one they had learned from Satan is evidence of it existing in mankind. Romans 1:23. And finally, the greatest proof of all, is that God sent His Christ in whom through believing in, a man is reborn and reconciled back to God. The word Christ actually means The True Image of God sent by God. For God would not send a True Image to believe in, if we did not have a false image of god ruling in our hearts. 2 Corinthians 4:4. Colossians 1:15. 2 Corinthians 4:6.

 

[Gregg]

So how does this conversation tie into the conception and birth of believers?

 

[Gregg]

Malachi made this statement on another thread [http://christianforums.net/Fellowship/index.php?threads/the-five-points-of-calvinism.57833/] to which I disagree with:

So, in essence, it is the preaching of the Gospel that generates faith (Mk 16:15,16).

Preaching the Gospel does not generate faith. Hearing the Gospel must accompany the preaching of it. My point is that the LORD Himself generates faith in the heart of a believer. I used the term 'conceive faith' where another uses 'generates faith.'

"For the word of God is living, and powerfully working, and sharper than every two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of both soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge of the thoughts and intentions of the heart; and there is no creature unrevealed before Him; but all things are naked and laid open to His eyes, with whom is our account" (Heb 4:12-13). It is God communicating with a man - piercing his heart, powerfully working to teach and to reprove him, discerning and unveiling his thoughts and intentions - Who brings about faith in the heart. He conceives faith in our heart and so works in us that we might be able to believe His word.

It is God Himself who is at work in a man (John 3:21), as we are His workmanship (Eph 2:10).

- - -

"Now faith is the substantiation of things having been hoped, the evidence of things not having been seen" (Heb 11:1).

Faith [the noun, pre-salvation] does not come out of the blue, certainly not from within the character and mind of a man. It comes about because God makes it so. He sends His word into the heart of a man, accompanying and administering that very word, giving men the evidence that He Is, that He is God our Savior, or Creator and Redeemer.

​

"But without faith it is impossible to please God . For it is right that the one drawing near to God should believe that He is, and that He becomes a rewarder to the ones seeking Him out" (Heb 11:6 LITV).