Conception and Birth of Believers

[childeye]

A man's will is present and active when contemplating obedience to God's will, but not without the presence and activity of God [Heb 4:12-13].

Of course this is true.

The Pharisees, but for Nicodemus and a few others, knew about God and His Christ; yet they did not come to a saving faith as they were not willing (John 5:40). 'willing' [θελετε] is from the Gk. θέλω meaning to will, wish, or desire; and implies preference, choice, and an active purpose or pressing toward action.

And why were they not willing? Why was the high priest not willing to come to Christ? Why was Paul willing to stone Steven for preaching the Gospel, and then willing to die preaching the Gospel?
1 Corinthians 1:21-25New International Version (NIV)
21 For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.22 Jews demand signs and Greeks look for wisdom,23 but we preach Christ crucified:a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles,24 but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.25 For the foolishness of God is wiser than human wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than human strength.

How do you interpret 1 John 3:8?

 

[FreeGrace]

To be clear, I am saying that when some one is born again of the Spirit of God, it is not because they were believing in anyone else but Jesus

Correct.

Inevitably a choice is made. That to me goes without saying.

And the choice is freely made.

Okay, so this is what you mean when you say they don't care. That helps me understand your view. I would agree that they were shown a Truth that they did not esteem adequately or value appropriately. Asking why opens many avenues of speculation. To me it suffices that they lacked the Light in themselves for whatever reason. I would add that some people already think they know the truth and yet it is not the truth that they know. Which is why I gave the example of how the High priest conspired to crucify Jesus. And this also can be a reason behind their choice/decision, to disregard the Truth when shown the Truth. For there are countless lies that can be brought forth to discount the single Truth. Consequently many demons can live in one person. but only one Truth can live in all men.
Good post.

Thanks.

 

[FreeGrace]

I don't think unbelievers know that the Word of God is the Love in them that would choose the good. Romans 2:14-15.

I don't find the Word saying that unbelievers have the Word of God in them. Much less the Love in them that would choose the good.

Until an unbeliever does believe, there is no good in them. The only good in believers comes from the indwelling Holy Spirit.

 

[FreeGrace]

God is the cause of their belief both in the object of the belief, in this case the Christ. John 1:14.

"4And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth"

I don't see this verse supporting the claim that God is the cause of their belief. Do you have any verses that do support that claim?

And also the source of belief which is the Word in their heart. 1 Corinthians 12:3. Romans 1:17.

1 Cor 12:3 - "Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus is accursed”; and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit."

This verse isn't speaking about belief or the source of belief. It is speaking of the fact that it is the Holy Spirit who reveals truth to man. When man says "Jesus is Lord", it is because that truth has been revealed. It is not about belief being caused.

Rom 1:17 - For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, “But the righteous man shall live by faith.”

I don't see any reference to belief being caused by God in this verse.

FreeGrace, please read these in order from left to right.
1 John 1:5. Genesis 1:27. Genesis 2:7. Romans 1:19. John 1: 3-4. 1 John 2:22-23. John 8:43-45. John 8:47. Matthew 11:15. Matthew 13:12.

I'm quite familiar with all of them. What am I supposed to be looking for, specifically?

 

[WIP]

I don't find the Word saying that unbelievers have the Word of God in them. Much less the Love in them that would choose the good.

Until an unbeliever does believe, there is no good in them. The only good in believers comes from the indwelling Holy Spirit.

Just a thought that crossed my mind here. Are you equating "doing good" with "being good?" I think there is a difference. I think it is possible for non-believers to do good but not to be good. In fact, I wonder if it is possible for any human to be good.

Matthew 19 NKJV, also Mark 10:18, Luke 18:19:
17 So He said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God.

 

[childeye]

Just a thought that crossed my mind here. Are you equating "doing good" with "being good?" I think there is a difference. I think it is possible for non-believers to do good but not to be good. In fact, I wonder if it is possible for any human to be good.

Matthew 19 NKJV, also Mark 10:18, Luke 18:19:
17 So He said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God.

Pardon my responding to this. I believe that what Jesus is saying here, is God is the goodness in mankind.

I don't think it's possible for any person to be good without God. But this goodness that is God appears to be in degrees after the fall. So that if God is Light and the absence of God is darkness, people have differing shades of gray. Matthew 13:12 appears to be implying that some people have more of something than other people. I would deem that as faith, which I count as falling under the umbrella of goodness.

 

[childeye]

I don't find the Word saying that unbelievers have the Word of God in them. Much less the Love in them that would choose the good.

The Word according to scripture is what lights every man. John 1:4, John 1:9.

Until an unbeliever does believe, there is no good in them. The only good in believers comes from the indwelling Holy Spirit.

I think most everybody has some measure of goodness. Unbelievers cry at funerals and feel compassion.

 

[childeye]

"4And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth"

I don't see this verse supporting the claim that God is the cause of their belief. Do you have any verses that do support that claim?

That's because this verse shows what is the object of belief.

1 Cor 12:3 - "Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus is accursed”; and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit."

This verse isn't speaking about belief or the source of belief. It is speaking of the fact that it is the Holy Spirit who reveals truth to man. When man says "Jesus is Lord", it is because that truth has been revealed. It is not about belief being caused.

Since the Holy Spirit reveals the Truth, does this activate a man's faith through which he believes? I say yes.

Rom 1:17 - For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, “But the righteous man shall live by faith.”

I don't see any reference to belief being caused by God in this verse.

Same question. If God reveals His righteousness in faith that the man with faith will believe, does the revelation activate the man's faith and cause him to believe? I say yes.

I'm quite familiar with all of them. What am I supposed to be looking for, specifically?

These scriptures show that there is in mankind some measure of Light that is from God via creation. And conversely that there is some measure of darkness in mankind via Satan. It is meant to show that some men are able to believe because they are as scripture puts it, of God.

 

[gr8grace3]

Rom 1:17 - For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, “But the righteous man shall live by faith.”

I don't see any reference to belief being caused by God in this verse.

I think Rom 1:17 is the key in this debate.
Most Christians will read 'righteousness' and think Goodness,morality,living holy and the such. When the righteousness pertains to a perfect verdict, and equality in that perfect verdict. Righteousness is Gods perfect justice.
Rom 1:17 - For in it(salvation) the righteousness(perfect justice) of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, “But the righteous(justified) man shall live by faith.”

So in salvation Gods Justice is revealed to mankind. How Can Gods perfect justice be revealed in salvation if God determines a mans belief? That justice cannot be revealed if belief is determined for some and not for others. So the attribute that saves men is Gods perfect Justice and our adjustment to His justice. His Justice was satisfied on the Cross and we adjust to that. If God withheld or determined faith for even 1 man His perfect justice would be less than perfect.

Psalm 9:8~~New American Standard Bible
And He will judge the world in righteousness(perfect justice); He will execute judgment for the peoples with equity(fairness).

Psalm 98:9~~New American Standard Bible
Before the LORD, for He is coming to judge the earth; He will judge the world with righteousness(perfect justice) And the peoples with equity(fairness).

 

[gr8grace3]

Faith is conceived when someone hears the Gospel in his heart [as opposed to head knowledge]. Hearing and believing are perhaps not simultaneous, but over time - at least enough time to contemplate and choose and act. When he acts upon that faith by turning towards God for salvation and eternal life - then he is a believer, a 'believing one.' I am convinced that believing faith and the birth from above are simultaneous one-time events.

I think that a person can believe that God exists, that He is who He says He is, and can know about God's salvation [Christ crucified and resurrected for our salvation and eternal life] without acting upon it. Those things can be head-knowledge without someone repenting of his disobedience by placing his faith in God. It is necessary for a man to believe God, not merely to know about God. It is necessary for a man to be obedient to God's will, not merely to acknowledge God's will. A man's will is present and active when contemplating obedience to God's will, but not without the presence and activity of God [Heb 4:12-13].

The Pharisees, but for Nicodemus and a few others, knew about God and His Christ; yet they did not come to a saving faith as they were not willing (John 5:40). 'willing' [θελετε] is from the Gk. θέλω meaning to will, wish, or desire; and implies preference, choice, and an active purpose or pressing toward action.

Thanks Gregg. I better understand where you are coming from now.....I am a little slow! Been off my game a little as of late. Distractions.

 

[Gregg]

I believe the scriptures do not identify any free will in any moral capacity that is in accordance with Webster or any dictionary for that matter. When scripture even uses the term free will it is referring to a voluntary offering which seems practical to me.

So let's scrap Webster and address the Greek NT, and look at words like: choose, wish, will, must need, obey, imperatives, subjunctives, etc. God and the Scriptures will define the human will and the context that we should use to discuss it. As far as 'the will' relates to our being born from above, it is not on the sidelines or on a string; but it is influenced from many sources - God, our own being, the devil, other people, circumstances.

Respectfully, this does not answer the question. That is, I know the man sins when a man sins. How do you interpret this scripture? 1 John 3:8. For this is what I am talking about.

"The one practicing sin is of the Devil, because the Devil sins from the beginning. For this the Son of God was revealed, that He undo the works of the Devil" (1Jn 3:8 LITV). I take it to mean that the man who sins is of the character of the Devil; not necessarily of the devil himself. Men sin on their own [and are responsible for it] despite what influence the devil may or may not have. That is the issue I am taking with you in this forum. Yes the flesh sins, as that is its nature; but the heart/soul of a saved man also sins. 1 John addresses this issue at great length. You lean towards blaming the devil and flesh for sin, but I am saying that is only a part of why man sins. Sometimes our souls make conscious deliberate decisions to sin.

 

[Gregg]

And so the LORD saves us past [when we were born from above], present, and future.

"by grace you have been saved [perfect <past action w/ continuing results> passive participle, ]" (Eph 2:5, 8 ESV).
"but to us being saved [present passive participle], it is the power of God" (1Cor 1:18 LITV).
"much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved [future passive indicative] by His life;" (Rom 5:10 LITV).

- - -

For those who think that their own action can effect the state of their salvation once they are born from above, please notice that all of the verbs above for 'saved' are in the passive; meaning that the saving action was, is, and will be by a third party, by the LORD Himself.


.

 

[FreeGrace]

Just a thought that crossed my mind here. Are you equating "doing good" with "being good?" I think there is a difference. I think it is possible for non-believers to do good but not to be good. In fact, I wonder if it is possible for any human to be good.

Matthew 19 NKJV, also Mark 10:18, Luke 18:19:
17 So He said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God.

Great question! We know that God is the only One who is good. This can be called "divine good", because God is divine. Humans, from their own selves, can produce what is called human good. But we know what God thinks of and calls this "human good", which is what we see in liberalism: Jer 17:9 - The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

All of human good comes from the heart, the soul of man. And God calls that desperately wicked.

Even believers only produce human good when they have grieved (Eph 4:30) or quenched (1 Thess 5:19) the Holy Spirit. The only good that is acceptable to God from humans is divine good, that produced by the power of the Holy Spirit when the believer is being filled with the Spirit (Eph 5:18) and walking by means of the Holy Spirit (Gal 5:16).

 

[FreeGrace]

The Word according to scripture is what lights every man. John 1:4, John 1:9.

True. But it lights only those who have believed, and therefore received that LIght. Jn 1:12

I think most everybody has some measure of goodness. Unbelievers cry at funerals and feel compassion.

The only good that is acceptable to God is divine good. And divine good is only produced through the power of the Holy Spirit.

 

[FreeGrace]

Since the Holy Spirit reveals the Truth, does this activate a man's faith through which he believes? I say yes.

I don't accept your terminology and wording. Such as "activate a man's faith". There is no such thing. The word faith is a noun. Faith is the substance of what is believed; whether in Santa Claus, Allah, or Jesus Christ as Savior. And we know that the only object that saves is Jesus Christ.

Believing comes from our intellect. We listen to various claims, and we analyze them. We decide whether to believe or reject those various claims. What we can't forget is that God has already revealed Himself and His attrributes through creation (Rom 1:18-20) so that no one has any excuse for rejecting any of the promises and claims of God.

Same question. If God reveals His righteousness in faith that the man with faith will believe, does the revelation activate the man's faith and cause him to believe? I say yes.

See my answer to previous paragraph. I disagree. It seems to me your view leads one directly down the path to reformed theology.

These scriptures show that there is in mankind some measure of Light that is from God via creation. And conversely that there is some measure of darkness in mankind via Satan. It is meant to show that some men are able to believe because they are as scripture puts it, of God.

So it seems your view is that God chooses who will believe. Correct?

 

[childeye]

I think Rom 1:17 is the key in this debate.
Most Christians will read 'righteousness' and think Goodness,morality,living holy and the such. When the righteousness pertains to a perfect verdict, and equality in that perfect verdict. Righteousness is Gods perfect justice.
Rom 1:17 - For in it(salvation) the righteousness(perfect justice) of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, “But the righteous(justified) man shall live by faith.”

So in salvation Gods Justice is revealed to mankind. How Can Gods perfect justice be revealed in salvation if God determines a mans belief? That justice cannot be revealed if belief is determined for some and not for others. So the attribute that saves men is Gods perfect Justice and our adjustment to His justice. His Justice was satisfied on the Cross and we adjust to that. If God withheld or determined faith for even 1 man His perfect justice would be less than perfect.

Psalm 9:8~~New American Standard Bible
And He will judge the world in righteousness(perfect justice); He will execute judgment for the peoples with equity(fairness).

Psalm 98:9~~New American Standard Bible
Before the LORD, for He is coming to judge the earth; He will judge the world with righteousness(perfect justice) And the peoples with equity(fairness).

I'm not sure what you are saying here. But what I am confident it means is, the just man shall live by faith because only a just man would believe in the image of God sent by God. While unjust men would not. There is judgment going on here. Consequently, belief is determined upon that criteria. Hence, "he who is of God hears God's words", John 8:19, John 8:37, John 8:47.

For Jesus was innocent and without sin. To crucify this man on the cross is not justice in the sense that the innocent should not be punished for the wicked. So what does the just man see that is the righteousness of God on the cross? The forgiving of those who would scourge and mock him, and then crucify him for speaking the Truth, "because they know not what they do". Luke 23:34. Acts 7:59-60. And this is the Divine Love on display on the cross, the righteousness of God. And if any man believe this is the True Image of God that would sacrifice Himself to save those lesser than Himself, he is a just man. And if many man thinks it is foolish of Jesus to pray for these that crucify him, they condemn themselves as willfully wicked because they obviously think that all men are. Consequently, I don't like Free will theology even for the very same reason that I believe in the Divine Love.

Not everyone understands that this is what is on display. I was brought up Roman Catholic and went to church every Sunday. I learned all about Jesus in classrooms for years and yet never saw it.

 

[childeye]

So let's scrap Webster and address the Greek NT, and look at words like: choose, wish, will, must need, obey, imperatives, subjunctives, etc. God and the Scriptures will define the human will and the context that we should use to discuss it. As far as 'the will' relates to our being born from above, it is not on the sidelines or on a string; but it is influenced from many sources - God, our own being, the devil, other people, circumstances.

Thank you Gregg. I really appreciate that. We only need the term will to address this subject, so that we can discuss why someone believes or chooses the way that they do. I agree there are many influences upon the will, too many to address. Suffice it to say that Satan is a big influence on one's disability to believe. Circumstance is also a player. I've known many people that never seek God or care to, until hitting a low point in their lives. I am one of those. God is on the inside. He breathed life into us and His Spirit is us. This is partly why sin is not rational, nor is unbelief.

"The one practicing sin is of the Devil, because the Devil sins from the beginning. For this the Son of God was revealed, that He undo the works of the Devil" (1Jn 3:8 LITV). I take it to mean that the man who sins is of the character of the Devil; not necessarily of the devil himself. Men sin on their own [and are responsible for it] despite what influence the devil may or may not have. That is the issue I am taking with you in this forum. Yes the flesh sins, as that is its nature; but the heart/soul of a saved man also sins. 1 John addresses this issue at great length. You lean towards blaming the devil and flesh for sin, but I am saying that is only a part of why man sins. Sometimes our souls make conscious deliberate decisions to sin.

Gregg I love your forthrightness. No guile here, you say it like it is. Consider this, I don't blame the devil as if he could help it. I believe he thinks he's right and counts himself a straight shooter. We all bought into the false image he was projecting. If I were to blame him as if he could help it, I would condemn myself. He is responsible for all sin which I took part in, but he is responsible like a rock is responsible for the damage done when it rolled down the hill and struck a house. If I were to think that if I were in Satan's shoes, I would have not slipped into vanity as he did, I have not understood what vanity is nor how iniquity and sin came about.

Yes sometimes or perhaps even many the times, our souls make conscious deliberate decisions to sin. But that is because it deliberates out of ignorance. Moreover, sin begins as a desire before it is a choice. We deliberate how to satisfy that which scripture describes as lust. But lust is never satisfied because it is derived from a false belief that there is always more, or better, or a higher place than where we are at. This is a Satanic trait that is the disability to find something wrong with everything and anything, including God. This is also the scriptural definition of what wickedness is. To the pure of heart, all is pure, but to the impure of heart nothing is pure. John 8:44. Titus1:15.

 

[childeye]

True. But it lights only those who have believed, and therefore received that LIght. Jn 1:12

Not exactly. It says he is the light of every man that comes into the world. John 1:9. Even because all things were made through him and without him nothing was made.

The only good that is acceptable to God is divine good. And divine good is only produced through the power of the Holy Spirit.

Nonetheless there is light in some measure in mankind before he believes or doesn't believe in the Christ.

 

[FreeGrace]

This is what I said:
"True. But it lights only those who have believed, and therefore received that LIght. Jn 1:12"

Not exactly. It says he is the light of every man that comes into the world. John 1:9. Even because all things were made through him and without him nothing was made.

John 1:9 doesn't negate 1:12. Jn 1:7 says that John the baptizer came to testify to that light. Why? So that through Him (Jesus) all men might believe.

1:9 says that Jesus "gives light to every man". What He gives must be received. And how does one receive? Those who believe, receive, per 1:12.

Nonetheless there is light in some measure in mankind before he believes or doesn't believe in the Christ.

You've not yet supported your claim from Scripture.

Jesus Christ is the Light, and He isn't in anyone who hasn't believed in Him. I've just supported my claim from Scripture.

 

[childeye]

I don't accept your terminology and wording. Such as "activate a man's faith". There is no such thing. The word faith is a noun. Faith is the substance of what is believed; whether in Santa Claus, Allah, or Jesus Christ as Savior. And we know that the only object that saves is Jesus Christ.

Perhaps I could have worded it better. To me I said essentially the same thing you said.

Believing comes from our intellect. We listen to various claims, and we analyze them. We decide whether to believe or reject those various claims.

I have no problem with that. That doesn't mean wisdom is necessary, since the foolishness of God is greater than the wisdom of men. 1 Corinthians 1:25. For God is able to reveal to mere children what He hides from the learned and scholarly. Let's face it, some people are more cynical than others.

What we can't forget is that God has already revealed Himself and His attrributes through creation (Rom 1:18-20) so that no one has any excuse for rejecting any of the promises and claims of God.

Yes, but according to Romans 2:1, we already did. Moreover this is somewhat out of context since Paul is talking about how we became sold to sin.

So it seems your view is that God chooses who will believe. Correct?

In a manner of speaking, yes. He chose the lowly and foolish to put to nothing the wise. We've discussed this before. 1 Corinthians 1:27.
Moreover this is judgment, for "the just shall live by faith". God therefore separates the wheat from the chaff.