Conception and Birth of Believers

[FreeGrace]

Yes Adam had a relationship with God and also with Eve. A relationship that began in faith, which is what holds relationships together.

What evidence is there for that? I believe the relationship was based on sight, not on faith. What did Adam have to believe in? He was created by God.

However I doubt Adam even knew what faith is.

He didn't have to know about it. His relationship with God was by sight.

No, I don't believe Adam knew what he was doing, unless of course he loved the woman so much he would rather die alongside her than be without her.

I said this: "1 Tim 2:14 - And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression. NASB"

Adam knew exactly what he was doing, because Paul said he wasn't deceived. The woman didn't really know what she was doing, but the same thing cannot be said of Adam.

But I don't think that's the case according to scripture. I think he lacked confidence so he followed the woman. I see that trait in mankind all too often.

I believe 1 Tim 2:14 refutes that idea.

1 Timothy is out of context. In context 1 Timothy 2:14 is talking about who should be subordinate to whom. It might as well have just said that she was the one that reached for the fruit and gave it to Adam so the man should rule over woman.

I am always amazed at how people use Scripture to try to support their views. The verse is clear enough to know who was and who wasn't deceived.

For otherwise this is the logic if Adam knew what he was doing: The one woman who was tricked into defying God should be ruled by the one who willingly and knowingly counted god a self serving liar.
So yes there is a no blame scenario just as I claim.

I refuted that idea with Gen 3:14-19. God held the man, the woman, and the devil accountable for their part in the sin. ALL were blamed for their sin. I cannot understand how anyone would claim there was a "no blame scenario", since all of them were judged.

 

[FreeGrace]

Malachi made this statement on another thread [http://christianforums.net/Fellowship/index.php?threads/the-five-points-of-calvinism.57833/] to which I disagree with:

Malachi said: ↑
So, in essence, it is the preaching of the Gospel that generates faith (Mk 16:15,16).​

Preaching the Gospel does not generate faith. Hearing the Gospel must accompany the preaching of it. My point is that the LORD Himself generates faith in the heart of a believer. I used the term 'conceive faith' where another uses 'generates faith.'

If one uses the word 'faith' as a noun, it isn't either conceived or generated. Faith as a noun is the substance of what is believed. iow, the Christian's faith is found in Scripture. We believe what the Bible says. That is our faith, the Christian faith.

The verb 'believe' is an action of thought. Do we speak of thoughts as being conceived or generated? Maybe. But faith as a noun is the substance of what we are believing.

Faith [the noun, pre-salvation] does not come out of the blue, certainly not from within the character and mind of a man. It comes about because God makes it so.

Again, faith is the substance of what we believe. Heb 12:2 says that Jesus is the author and finisher of our faith. He is the substance of our faith.

 

[FreeGrace]

So how does this conversation tie into the conception and birth of believers?

It doesn't. It's totally off topic.

 

[LovethroughDove]

Isaiah 55
10 As the rain and the snow
come down from heaven,
and do not return to it
without watering the earth
and making it bud and flourish,
so that it yields seed for the sower and bread for the eater,
11 so is my word that goes out from my mouth:
It will not return to me empty,
but will accomplish what I desire
and achieve the purpose for which I sent it.

God's has a purpose. How does he accomplish this purpose? Planting his harvest.

Matthew 13:18-23
18 “Listen then to what the parable of the sower means: 19 When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in their heart. This is the seed sown along the path. 20 The seed falling on rocky ground refers to someone who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. 21 But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away. 22 The seed falling among the thorns refers to someone who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, making it unfruitful. 23 But the seed falling on good soil refers to someone who hears the word and understands it. This is the one who produces a crop, yielding a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown.”

Jesus compares us to a harvest.
Matthew 3:12 "His winnowing fork is in hand, and he will clear his threshing floor, gathering his wheat into the barn and burning up the chaff with unquenchable fire."

So, God knows how much of a harvest he is going to get. There is a predestined amount

Romans 8:29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters.

You don't know if you are wheat, until you "know".
1 Corinthians 8:3 But the man who loves God is known by God.
and Galatians 4:9 But now that you know God - or rather are known by God

 

[childeye]

Isaiah 55
10 As the rain and the snow
come down from heaven,
and do not return to it
without watering the earth
and making it bud and flourish,
so that it yields seed for the sower and bread for the eater,
11 so is my word that goes out from my mouth:
It will not return to me empty,
but will accomplish what I desire
and achieve the purpose for which I sent it.

God's has a purpose. How does he accomplish this purpose? Planting his harvest.

Matthew 13:18-23
18 “Listen then to what the parable of the sower means: 19 When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in their heart. This is the seed sown along the path. 20 The seed falling on rocky ground refers to someone who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. 21 But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away. 22 The seed falling among the thorns refers to someone who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, making it unfruitful. 23 But the seed falling on good soil refers to someone who hears the word and understands it. This is the one who produces a crop, yielding a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown.”

Jesus compares us to a harvest.
Matthew 3:12 "His winnowing fork is in hand, and he will clear his threshing floor, gathering his wheat into the barn and burning up the chaff with unquenchable fire."

So, God knows how much of a harvest he is going to get. There is a predestined amount

Romans 8:29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters.

You don't know if you are wheat, until you "know".
1 Corinthians 8:3 But the man who loves God is known by God.
and Galatians 4:9 But now that you know God - or rather are known by God

 

[childeye]

So how does this conversation tie into the conception and birth of believers?

I will say this. The believer is believing in The True Image of God at birth. I am at a loss as to how the True Image of God does not tie in? Also I have been establishing, in contrast and for the sake of clarity, that this world believes in a false image of god. 2 Corinthians 4:4.
Honestly, this is at the heart of the subject. Even as Christ is the reason for Christianity.
Perhaps you could please explain to me why you would count, at least my end of the conversation, as irrelevant.

 

[childeye]

So what does free will or no free will have to do with this topic? If anyone has read my posts and understands where I am coming from. I do not believe in a free will in moral behavior because, at the heart of immorality or ungodliness is a false image of god, while at the heart of morality or Godliness is the True Image of God. 2 Corinthians 4:4. Free will indicates neither of these exist. Now Christ is the true Light, the True image of God sent by God, even because a false image of god is the power of darkness. And this supports my contention in bold above. So to me it is not possible that believing in Christ is a freely made choice/decision made apart from God's Word.

For the Word that created man is the same Word that comes in the flesh. John 1:3 . So that when a believer believes, it is because he or she knows Light when they see it. John 1:5. They therefore must have some measure of Light in them to begin with, to able to know Light and believe in the Christ. This makes Christ, both the author and finisher of our faith. Matthew 13:12. Hebrews 12:2 .

 

[FreeGrace]

I will say this. The believer is believing in The True Image of God at birth.

Could you provide passages that clearly address this idea?

I am at a loss as to how the True Image of God does not tie in? Also I have been establishing, in contrast and for the sake of clarity, that this world believes in a false image of god. 2 Corinthians 4:4.

Here is the verse:
"in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God."

I don't see where it says anything about a "false image of god". It speaks of Satan, referred here as the "god of this world", who blinds the minds of unbelievers.

However, Rom 1:18-20 speaks of the fact that God has revealed His attributes so that no one has any excuse for not being thankful to the Creator.

The only people Satan has blinded are those who weren't interested in the first place.

Consider 2 Thess 2:10,11 - 10"and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved. 11For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false"

What does "for this reason" refer to, at the beginning of v.11? It refers back to v.10 and those who didn't love the truth. It was for that reason that God sends upn them a deluding influence.

Again, it all goes back to choice. God HAS revealed Himself so that no one has any excuse. But not everyone pays attention to what God has revealed. It is to those who didn't pay attention beause they didn't care, who are deluded by Satan and given a deluding influence.

 

[FreeGrace]

So what does free will or no free will have to do with this topic? If anyone has read my posts and understands where I am coming from. I do not believe in a free will in moral behavior because, at the heart of immorality or ungodliness is a false image of god, while at the heart of morality or Godliness is the True Image of God. Free will indicates neither of these exist. Now Christ is the true Light, the True image of God sent by God, even because a false image of god is the power of darkness. And this supports my contention in bold above. So to me it is not possible that believing in Christ is a freely made choice/decision made apart from God's Word.

If man doesn't believe in Christ freely, then who is the cause of such belief?

Your view comes from your understanding of true and false images of god, apparently, yet where is that found in Scripture? Further, if man's action of belief in Christ isn't freely made, who does cause that action?

For the Word that created man is the same Word that comes in the flesh. John 1:3 . So that when a believer believes, it is because he or she knows Light when they see it. John 1:5.

The religious Jewish leaders not only acknowledged the miracles, but couldn't deny them (Acts 4:16), yet they denied the Source of those miracles.

Jn 1:5 - The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

Please explain why you use this verse to support your statement: "it is because he or she (believer) knows Light when they see it". Are you saying that they somehow know the Light before they believe, which is the cause of their belief, or what?

They therefore must have some measure of Light in them to begin with, to able to know Light and believe in the Christ.

What verse or passage informs you of this idea?

This makes Christ, both the author and finisher of our faith. Matthew 13:12. Hebrews 12:2 .

The Bible says Christ is the author and finisher of our faith without any comment about this "measure of light" that you speak of.

 

[gr8grace3]

I do not believe in a free will in moral behavior because, at the heart of immorality or ungodliness is a false image of god, while at the heart of morality or Godliness is the True Image of God. 2 Corinthians 4:4.

The Flaw in this for me is the fact that morality is not Godliness. Morality is the result of Godliness, not the means to Godliness. Many unbelievers choose to live moral lives and live apart from God.

 

[childeye]

Could you provide passages that clearly address this idea?

To be clear, I am saying that when some one is born again of the Spirit of God, it is not because they were believing in anyone else but Jesus. So this is not an idea per se, it is the Gospel.

Here is the verse:
"in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God."

I don't see where it says anything about a "false image of god". It speaks of Satan, referred here as the "god of this world", who blinds the minds of unbelievers.

To be clear, the "god of this world" is not Thee True God. It therefore by default is a false god (imagined as god, but it is not God). A false image of god. Not thee True Image of God.

However, Rom 1:18-20 speaks of the fact that God has revealed His attributes so that no one has any excuse for not being thankful to the Creator.

No one can argue that the Creator didn't create us who are created. Consequently, Godliness comes from God.

The only people Satan has blinded are those who weren't interested in the first place.

The way I see it, is everyone who wonders why evil is present in mankind is interested. For example, the Christ was crucified by those who thought they were serving God. They considered Christ a threat to the established order in charge of the temple of God in Jerusalem.

Consider 2 Thess 2:10,11 - 10"and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved. 11For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false"

What does "for this reason" refer to, at the beginning of v.11? It refers back to v.10 and those who didn't love the truth. It was for that reason that God sends upn them a deluding influence.

For what it's worth, this to me is an accurate interpretation of scripture without error.

Again, it all goes back to choice. God HAS revealed Himself so that no one has any excuse. But not everyone pays attention to what God has revealed. It is to those who didn't pay attention beause they didn't care, who are deluded by Satan and given a deluding influence.

Inevitably a choice is made. That to me goes without saying.

Okay, so this is what you mean when you say they don't care. That helps me understand your view. I would agree that they were shown a Truth that they did not esteem adequately or value appropriately. Asking why opens many avenues of speculation. To me it suffices that they lacked the Light in themselves for whatever reason. I would add that some people already think they know the truth and yet it is not the truth that they know. Which is why I gave the example of how the High priest conspired to crucify Jesus. And this also can be a reason behind their choice/decision, to disregard the Truth when shown the Truth. For there are countless lies that can be brought forth to discount the single Truth. Consequently many demons can live in one person. but only one Truth can live in all men.
Good post.[/QUOTE]

 

[childeye]

The Flaw in this for me is the fact that morality is not Godliness. Morality is the result of Godliness, not the means to Godliness. Many unbelievers choose to live moral lives and live apart from God.

Thanks for the correction gr8grace3. I only meant to say that Godliness comes from God. Morality to me is good behavior and immorality bad behavior. But after looking up the definition of morality, I see it is about principles or ethics.
I don't think unbelievers know that the Word of God is the Love in them that would choose the good. Romans 2:14-15.

 

[Gregg]

I will say this. The believer is believing in The True Image of God at birth. I am at a loss as to how the True Image of God does not tie in? Also I have been establishing, in contrast and for the sake of clarity, that this world believes in a false image of god. 2 Corinthians 4:4.
Honestly, this is at the heart of the subject. Even as Christ is the reason for Christianity.
Perhaps you could please explain to me why you would count, at least my end of the conversation, as irrelevant.

Addressing will and/or free will is fine; I am wanting to see how you think they relate to the conception and birth of believers. Your next post, #47, is heading in that direction. Thank you.

 

[gr8grace3]

Addressing will and/or free will is fine; I am wanting to see how you think they relate to the conception and birth of believers. Your next post, #47, is heading in that direction. Thank you.

Gregg, would I be correct in thinking that your "conception" is when a person hears the Gospel? And The conception could be with a person for months or even years before that person believes it and is born again? Or could outright reject the "conception" and never be born again?

Thank you Sir

 

[childeye]

If man doesn't believe in Christ freely, then who is the cause of such belief?

Your view comes from your understanding of true and false images of god, apparently, yet where is that found in Scripture? Further, if man's action of belief in Christ isn't freely made, who does cause that action?

God is the cause of their belief both in the object of the belief, in this case the Christ. John 1:14. And also the source of belief which is the Word in their heart. 1 Corinthians 12:3. Romans 1:17.

The religious Jewish leaders not only acknowledged the miracles, but couldn't deny them (Acts 4:16), yet they denied the Source of those miracles.

I agree.

Jn 1:5 - The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

Please explain why you use this verse to support your statement: "it is because he or she (believer) knows Light when they see it". Are you saying that they somehow know the Light before they believe, which is the cause of their belief, or what?

Yes, I believe that they (believers) must have a measure of Light, enough at least to know the Light (Christ) when they see it. For since darkness cannot comprehend the Light, only light can comprehend the Light.

What verse or passage informs you of this idea?


The Bible says Christ is the author and finisher of our faith without any comment about this "measure of light" that you speak of.

FreeGrace, please read these in order from left to right.
1 John 1:5. Genesis 1:27. Genesis 2:7. Romans 1:19. John 1: 3-4. 1 John 2:22-23. John 8:43-45. John 8:47. Matthew 11:15. Matthew 13:12.

 

[childeye]

Gregg, would I be correct in thinking that your "conception" is when a person hears the Gospel? And The conception could be with a person for months or even years before that person believes it and is born again? Or could outright reject the "conception" and never be born again?

Thank you Sir

Great question. I wonder this too.

 

[childeye]

Malachi made this statement on another thread [http://christianforums.net/Fellowship/index.php?threads/the-five-points-of-calvinism.57833/] to which I disagree with:

Preaching the Gospel does not generate faith. Hearing the Gospel must accompany the preaching of it. My point is that the LORD Himself generates faith in the heart of a believer. I used the term 'conceive faith' where another uses 'generates faith.'

"For the word of God is living, and powerfully working, and sharper than every two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of both soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge of the thoughts and intentions of the heart; and there is no creature unrevealed before Him; but all things are naked and laid open to His eyes, with whom is our account" (Heb 4:12-13). It is God communicating with a man - piercing his heart, powerfully working to teach and to reprove him, discerning and unveiling his thoughts and intentions - Who brings about faith in the heart. He conceives faith in our heart and so works in us that we might be able to believe His word.

It is God Himself who is at work in a man (John 3:21), as we are His workmanship (Eph 2:10).

- - -

"Now faith is the substantiation of things having been hoped, the evidence of things not having been seen" (Heb 11:1).

Faith [the noun, pre-salvation] does not come out of the blue, certainly not from within the character and mind of a man. It comes about because God makes it so. He sends His word into the heart of a man, accompanying and administering that very word, giving men the evidence that He Is, that He is God our Savior, or Creator and Redeemer.

​

"But without faith it is impossible to please God . For it is right that the one drawing near to God should believe that He is, and that He becomes a rewarder to the ones seeking Him out" (Heb 11:6 LITV).

I totally agree. Now why is it Gregg that I can agree with you while you disagree with me? I don't take it personally, but I am addressing an issue of semantics. You believe in free will, and yet here you proclaim the power of God working in mankind to believe, while Free will claims God does not do so. ????

 

[Gregg]

Some people have a problem with such a concept because it eliminates what the dictionary describes as free will.

We therefore should not conflate the term "will", with "free" will. So let's look at the terms. The term "will" generally carries two different meanings. 1) the ability to choose. 2) The desire within a man. Merriam Webster:
Definition of WILL
transitive verb
: desire, wish <call it what you will>
verbal auxiliary
1
—used to express desire, choice, willingness, consent, or in negative constructions refusal <no one would take the job> <if we will all do our best> <will you please stop that racket>.

Now I would like to say a few things about the term "free will' and what it means. It is not the ability to choose which is what the term "will" means as shown above. It is the ability to choose freely without any compulsion or restraint and without any predetermined events that may alter our choices, nor are any choices controlled by anyone including God Himself. From Merriam Webster:
Free will
noun
: the ability to choose how to act
: the ability to make choices that are not controlled by fate or God.

Free will is saying God does not control our choices, including whether we decide to believe in free will or not.

I would like to see on your part a Scriptural understanding of will/freewill, as opposed to what Webster might say about it. How do the Scriptures address our will as it relates to the process of God saving us, in our approaching and receiving birth from above?

So you don't believe that all acts of sin are Fathered by Satan? 1 John 3:8.

No, definitely not. When a man sins, it is the man who sins - regardless of external influence.

Satan will not be present on earth during the millennium to blame for sin (Rev 20:2), and yet men will still sin during the millennium as evidenced by the existence of death (Rev 21:4,14; Isa 65:20).

 

[childeye]

I would like to see on your part a Scriptural understanding of will/freewill, as opposed to what Webster might say about it.

I believe the scriptures do not identify any free will in any moral capacity that is in accordance with Webster or any dictionary for that matter. When scripture even uses the term free will it is referring to a voluntary offering which seems practical to me.

How do the Scriptures address our will as it relates to the process of God saving us, in our approaching and receiving birth from above?

The term the will is commonly used to describe desire in scripture. I have never seen it refer to a man's ability to choose. It always says if you will this or will that. Yeah or nay, never in the gray. Hence we see the desire of the flesh described as the will of the flesh and God's desire as God's will. I have already talked extensively about how God affects our wills and how false gods affect our wills and how the will of the flesh affects our wills, and how that relates to our approaching God and our believing God. Having read your posts I essentially agree with everything you say. That God does it through His Spirit.

No, definitely not. When a man sins, it is the man who sins - regardless of external influence.

Respectfully, this does not answer the question. That is, I know the man sins when a man sins. How do you interpret this scripture? 1 John 3:8. For this is what I am talking about.

Satan will not be present on earth during the millennium to blame for sin (Rev 20:2), and yet men will still sin during the millennium as evidenced by the existence of death (Rev 21:4,14; Isa 65:20).

Again I think you misunderstand me. The liar need not be present for the lie to continue to do it's job.

 

[Gregg]

Gregg, would I be correct in thinking that your "conception" is when a person hears the Gospel? And The conception could be with a person for months or even years before that person believes it and is born again? Or could outright reject the "conception" and never be born again?

Thank you Sir

Great question. I wonder this too.

Faith is conceived when someone hears the Gospel in his heart [as opposed to head knowledge]. Hearing and believing are perhaps not simultaneous, but over time - at least enough time to contemplate and choose and act. When he acts upon that faith by turning towards God for salvation and eternal life - then he is a believer, a 'believing one.' I am convinced that believing faith and the birth from above are simultaneous one-time events.

I think that a person can believe that God exists, that He is who He says He is, and can know about God's salvation [Christ crucified and resurrected for our salvation and eternal life] without acting upon it. Those things can be head-knowledge without someone repenting of his disobedience by placing his faith in God. It is necessary for a man to believe God, not merely to know about God. It is necessary for a man to be obedient to God's will, not merely to acknowledge God's will. A man's will is present and active when contemplating obedience to God's will, but not without the presence and activity of God [Heb 4:12-13].

The Pharisees, but for Nicodemus and a few others, knew about God and His Christ; yet they did not come to a saving faith as they were not willing (John 5:40). 'willing' [θελετε] is from the Gk. θέλω meaning to will, wish, or desire; and implies preference, choice, and an active purpose or pressing toward action.